2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[sclloyd]

Oh trust me Bolero is no masterpiece. The Olympic programs in almost every discipline are pretty disappointing this season and unfortunately that includes Kamila. Her best program remains Girl on a Ball imo. However that doesn't change the fact that as a skater she is revolutionary. If Midori Ito and Trusova were like Kurt Browning and Tim Goebel in pushing the technical content, then Kamila is like the Patrick Chan, the first one to combine superior tech with superior artistry. And we have seen Kamila grow and struggle too, she has had just as many meltdown skates as Daria and almost as many as Maia. In fact Trusova and Kostornaia were basically the only ones who never struggled in juniors, it's ironic how much they have in seniors.

"Every other Russian lady has had to fight tooth and nail to get what she gets" Medvedeva's 78 PCS at the Olympics, Zagitova's 75 PCS at the Olympics (in her debut season), Alena's 73 PCS at Europeans in her debut season say otherwise. The ones who have fought tooth and nail for their scores: Tuktamysheva of course, and perhaps Gubanova. In the last ten years, Mao Asada was the only one who had to fight the judges for every tenth of a point, more than any other lady in Russia, Japan, or anywhere else. I cannot think of any other skater who got the benefit of the doubt as rarely as Mao.

In no world is Alina’s Don Quixote Olympic performance on par with this Bolero. Alina was brilliant, the step sequence, the stability, the control of the crowd!! And only 3 points below a back to back world champ who was an absolutely dominant PCS skater that sought to embody every character??. 1.74 higher than Aliona’s near perfect Twilight AFTER she won the GPF. And yet not a memorable moment in this program except the start and end poses. And only her second senior international competition ever— not even a championship. Her PCS score is so inflated for this performance that she got only 2 points less than Anna’s FS at an already inflated nationals. And that was a brilliant, memorable, career defining performance. This is what I mean.

 

[Decoder]

I couldn't believe it.

After 4+ minutes of intense skating, I'll sit there and keep a smiling face, thinking that somehow the camera would be direct in my face, so I'd better be prepared to show my respect to the next stater. What a nonsense!

This was discussed at the time, and people dig it up now to prove something? Really weird.

 

[Hadassa]

Really nice exhibition program form Kamila! I liked the costume too!

 

[Decoder]

Really nice exhibition program form Kamila! I liked the costume too!

All are having fun. Love it!

 

[Greengemmonster]

Nah, I quite like Maia and Daria, they have much more on-ice presence. If the 3A were replaced by one of them I’d be less peeved because we see them struggle and grow and have to work for their reputation. I just don’t like the haughty attitude and I don’t like people pretending Bolero is a masterpiece Kamila is good, but people are allowed to dislike her, lmao.

Of course you're allowed to dislike her. What's unpleasant is you citing your delusions about her perceived "attitude" is if it was gospel truth, which it isn't!

Just because you think she's got a bad attitude does not make it true.

 

[Lechat]

I don’t think there’s any denying that Kamila is the #1 Russian lady skater right now and favorite for Olympic gold. I also don’t think it’s fair to think she’s a poor sport or bad person for showing feelings of disappointment in loss. These girls all work hard towards one common goal. There’s going to be disappointment. She’s human.
I also feel a little bad for those die hard fans of particular skaters that didn’t prepare themselves for the inevitable. We see this happen every year. We saw Alina overtake Zhenya and the 3A take over Alina. Enter Kamila. It’s sport.

I agree and one day maybe Sofia will take over Kamila and someone else will take over the current leader. This is sport and how rivality makes the athletes improve.

 

[hanca]

I agree and one day maybe Sofia will take over Kamila and someone else will take over the current leader. This is sport and how rivality makes the athletes improve.

One day? It will happen in 3-4 years.
Lipnitskaya took over from Shelepen.
Tsurskaya was supposed to take over from Lipnitskaya, but that didn’t work out. So it was Medvedeva who took over Lipnitskaya.
Zagitova took over from Medvedeva.
Scherbakova/Trusova/Kostornaya took over from Zagitova.
Valieva took over from Scherbakova/Trusova/Kostornaya.

Valieva won’t be at the top for that long. She has roughly 3 senior years. It is too hard to stay at the top longer. Unless she wins the Olympics. Then she may have only this year and then she will lose motivation, like Zagitova did.

 

[brigit66]

Her skating is more complete and full than Tuktamysheva, Trusova, and Shcherbakova. In Alena's current condition Valieva is ahead of her too. Ironically the other two new seniors - Usacheva and Khromykh - are the ones matching Valieva with the combination of speed, skating skills, elegance, and power that people refer to as "senior skating." Tuktamysheva and Shcherbakova have their own unique style and voice on the ice which is another part of "senior skating" but Kamila has her signature and iconic moments on ice too with her flexibility and leg strength just like the great skaters in history.

Sinitsyna should be in bold too. Wow it's amazing to see the Russian ladies dominate. If Samodelkina gets it together and makes the junior worlds team they could have possibly 12 skaters above 210 points aka 12 skaters who would have won World Silver 2018. Amazing.

I will shred you. The fans who wanted/believed in a 3A Olympic podium were blind to the future just like the fans who thought that Medvedeva and Zagitova would have any shot of sticking around once the 3A arrived. For Valieva-Usacheva-Khromykh the same is true. They only have a couple years themselves before Akatieva, Zhilina, and company. That's the way the system works right now. But if you don't like Kamila don't worry, she will be no exception, she will struggle with motivation and growth just like Zagitova did after winning when facing off against a girl hungry for titles like Akatieva. Only someone like Tuktamysheva who has the luxury of being the top dog at her training camp can stick around.

Why should Kamila not expect to win Rusnats last year? She's an athlete, she has an athlete's mindset.
Why should she not be chosen? This is not special. Tuktamysheva was "chosen" in 14-15. Medvedeva in 15-16 and 16-17. Zagitova in 17-18 and 18-19. Kihira threatened in 2018 through pure BV advantage but she took herself out of contention with inconsistency. Kostornaia seized the opportunity in 19-20 when Trusova showed nerves. Anna was clearly the chosen one in 20-21, scoring better at Rusnats 2021 with 2 quads then at Rusnats 2020 with 3 quads.

Valieva continues the cycle. In fact I'd say she's more deserving of being "chosen" because she has it all: like you said Anna has spins and Sasha has quads and Aliona had components and they were ALL rewarded as new seniors for them. here is the narrative I just described in chart form. Notice the PCS boost they all get in their chosen season including Kihira in 18-19.

What you call complete and full skating , I call full of tricks. She goes from one element to another - everything is well trained, almost to "perfection" But there are no nice lines, choreography, deep edges, flow.There are no memorable programs from her, you see? Flexibility is nice but when you kick your leg every few seconds it is becoming to be irritating. If I wanted to se only flexibility I would start watching gimnastics. And her crossovers are bad. I just felt what is 'off' with Valieva's posture this season that wasn't there before, she is starting to do the Zags thing of leaning forward and sticking out her bottocks to gain speed...Is bending forward for crossovers to gain speed Valieva's new development? I was shocked how much her posture reminded me of Zag when she was not doing choreo.

 

[prorussian fan]

This has already been discussed many times.
They forget the stacked field that is competing in Russia. The great stars like Yuna or Carolina could stay years in the elite because they had no competition in their country. Just like Irina in her time. There is simply so much talent in Russia that it is understandable that motivation is lost when there are only three places for the important competitions. Zagitova got all the possible titles, she is a star, let her continue with her normal adult life, there are things beyond skating for all these girls that they are willing to enjoy.

 

[prorussian fan]

You don't like Kamila's show, let it slide.
Perhaps it burns several of them that she will probably win the Olympics, there are many others, fans and spectators not fanatical of skating, who will enjoy such a revolutionary, athletic, artistic and incredible program, and her victory will give us so much joy.
In the end Kamila will be happy to go down in history and that is the only thing that matters.

 

[florin]

Satoko caanot get 75 in PCS but for instance Med , Zag could?

I don't really understand what Medvedeva and Zagitova have to do with the issue under discussion. But to answer your question, they can, but they don't necessarily have to.

It was said that, in my deep conviction, technical elements are one of the most important presentation tools. It was about restrictions. If you don't have a hammer, you can't drive a nail. But I did not claim that if you have a hammer, you will definitely be able to drive a nail. All I said was that Satoko doesn't have a hammer.

 

[brigit66]

I don't really understand what Medvedev and Zagitova have to do with the issue under discussion. But to answer your question, they can, but they don't necessarily have to.

It was said that, in my deep conviction, technical elements are one of the most important presentation tools. It was about restrictions. If you don't have a hammer, you can't drive a nail. But I did not claim that if you have a hammer, you will definitely be able to drive a nail. All I said was that Satoko doesn't have a hammer.

And what satoko has to do here, that you are contemplating about her PCS?
So you must be eated alive what they do to Jason Brown.
PCS have nothing to do with technical score epecially interpretation of the music/performance. Many girls have terrible jumps, prerotated with bad edges and according to you they should have still get 9,75? Because their mistakes are invisible and they know how to hide their disadvantages? Smart

 

[florin]

You say PCs is for presentation, but what Satoko does, if not presentation ? You guess people think she deserves high PCS because of her facial expression??? So indeed, Med should have got 80

No, I don't guess that and I haven't said it anywhere. Obviously, when I wrote - "We are not in the Bolshoi Theater.." - I described (through the rhetorical method of denial) my general ideas are about figure skating, not about Satoko. I recommend reading more carefully what people write with whom you have entered into a discussion.

 

[brigit66]

No, I don't guess that and I haven't said it anywhere. Obviously, when I wrote - "We are not in the Bolshoi Theater.." - I described (through the rhetorical method of denial) my general ideas are about figure skating, not about Satoko. I recommend reading more carefully what people write with whom you have entered into a discussion.

That was an irony from my side...

And you still said "figure skaters perform a presentation with their movements" What you mean by movements? Only landing clean jump? what about choreo, nice lines, flow, skating skills. musicality ? Doesnt count because of urs?
so a skater cannot get higher pcs when one visibly underotates her jump?

 

[florin]

PCS have nothing to do with technical score epecially interpretation of the music/performance.

You are inattentive. I didn't talk about technical score. I was talking about the presentation tools - deep edges, plasticity of the hands, spirals, spins etc. And jumps too. Beautiful jumps, purely performed, in musical accents, with beautiful entrances and exits - make a strong emotional impression. If you don't have it, your presentation is limited, whether you want it or not. No one will ever (well, unless the judges finally corrupt) give Brown the same PCS as Hanyu for this reason, and his ceiling will always be ~90.

And Brown is not the worst case yet, he is not an analogue of Satoko (that's why his PСS is so high). His jumps are good. But only they are triple. The absence of quads - a certain type of jumps (powerful) - is also a limitation (for a man) on the presentation, but less strong as just bad jumps.

 

[brigit66]

You are inattentive. I didn't talk about technical score. I was talking about the presentation tools - deep edges, plasticity of the hands, spirals, spins etc. And jumps too. Beautiful jumps, purely performed, in musical accents, with beautiful entrances and exits - make a strong emotional impression. If you don't have it, your presentation is limited, whether you want it or not. No one will ever (well, unless the judges finally corrupt) give Brown the same PCS as Hanyu for this reason, and his ceiling will always be ~90.

No, you ddnt talk about deep edges, plasticity of the hands , spirals, spins actually. You talked about jumps, reffering to mentioned 3S and "Jumping is not and never will be a Satoko presentation tool".
And anyway Satoko has everything you mentioned, Really deep edges, plasticity of the hands , amazing spirals and spins, - layback! Her axel has beautiful entrance and exit for instance, her jumps are performed to the musical accent, she has emotional skating like nobody' elses , hands down. Her step sequnce on one leg,? Which of the top girls could pull that off? You want to say that top girls have it, but she doesnt?? Sorry I ddint start talking about satoko but simply you dont know how to get out of it.

 

[florin]

No, you ddnt talk about deep edges, plasticity of the hands , spirals, spins actually. You talked about jumps, reffering to mentioned 3S and "Jumping is not and never will be a Satoko presentation tool".

I know that I didn't talk about that. Because I was discussing the lack of one of the tools.

 

[brigit66]

I know I didn't say that. Because I was discussing the lack of one of the tools.

thats logic, but you said :
Consequently, Satoko has a serious limitation on the PСS

So one of the tools ( jumping) is serious limitation?
But few minutrs ago you said that skater has multiple things to have to get high PCS. not only jumping but deep edges, plasticity of the hands , spirals, spins, musical accent, entrances , does satoko have it or not? You sounded like she doesnt?
I think skaters like Valieva or Zag are worse than Satoko in that department...

 

[florin]

thats logic, but you said :
Consequently, Satoko has a serious limitation on the PСS

So one of the tools ( jumping) is serious limitation?
But few minutrs ago you said that skater has multiple things to have to get high PCS. not only jumping but deep edges, plasticity of the hands , spirals, spins, musical accent, entrances , does satoko have it or not? You sounded like she doesnt?
I think skaters like Valieva or Zag are worse than Satoko in that department...

At least you finally understood what I wanted to say. And now you're trying play with words. I will answer, but for the last time (you have already understood my thought, so we both will only waste time further).

Firstly, it is an important tool. And secondly, "serious" for top skaters who are fighting at the very top, for whom the absence of 5 PСS points (i.e. only 5/80 = 1/16 of the full scale) is a serious reduction in the chances of winning.

 

[macy]

Well I just watched Aliona and honestly I was expecting something a lot worse than what I saw, based on the score and what I read here.

IMO she just needs more mileage on it. I think it has a lot of potential and there were a few really nice moments. The levels and URs will improve when she's in better shape and more confident. It was pretty obvious this was a brand new program and her first time competing it and she wasn't completely sure of herself.

I'm in agreement about the events of last year, the coaching change and getting covid really took a toll on her confidence and even her trust in herself.