2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[florin]

But few minutrs ago you said that skater has multiple things to have to get high PCS. not only jumping but deep edges, plasticity of the hands , spirals, spins, musical accent, entrances , does satoko have it or not? You sounded like she doesnt?

"You sounded"

You don't know what I sound like because we communicate in text mode. Unless, of course, we are talking about voices in the head

I write what I write.

 

[lurkerghost1]

I was talking about Satoko, not Rika. It is not necessary to mix everything - component analysis is a complex matter. There are a large number of reasons why the PСS can be low, so by mixing everything into a one cup, you deliberately complicate the analysis. So back to Satoko.

And it would be better if you didn't cite this Satoka's 3S as an example Personally, I see a cautious entrance, a shallow jump and a jerky, fussy landing (with a good attempt to disguise it). Jumping is not and never will be a Satoko presentation tool. We are not in the Bolshoi Theater - figure skaters perform a presentation with their movements, not with voices and facial expressions. Consequently, Satoko has a serious limitation on the PСS. That, and that's all I wanted to say. I didn't say Satoko was a bad skater. I did not say that it is not worthy of the interval of 65-70 PCS. But fan wishes about >=75 are exactly dreams with such nondescript jumps.

First of all P stands for program not performance. Here is the ISU’s definition of performance:

“Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition”

Does it say anything about jump content or flow or control? No of course. Your discussion of flow, glide, control into Daria’s jump are valid, but 1) these would go in SS/TR, and 2) Satoko demonstrates blade control and glide in other parts of her program (step sequence, choreo sequence) in equal levels as Daria does before 2A.

If jumps determined performance level then Midori Ito or Irina Slutskaya would have been given the greatest marks in presentation because she was the fastest with the biggest jumps. Today Sakamoto carries the most speed into and out of her jumps but she has never been considered a refined/controlled skater.

In regards to Satoko and evgneia’s tangos, it should be clear who fulfills this the best. Satoko has the proper arm positions and control, the proper distance between her feet, the proper upright back and angles between her shoulders and hips. In short a refined tango. Evgenia has none of this. Satoko intellectually has studied this dance style and understands it, I can’t even say the same for Evgenia. Emotionally they both give a lot though which has always been Evgenia’s strength. But the truth is Satoko was not rewarded for this. Why should it not count for her when she showed more control than Evgenia, and now that a younger skater with fabulous control in Daria comes along suddenly this is a dock against Satoko’s abilities?

As for Daria she emotes wonderfully and has so much strength and intentionally in her movements. A delightful skater. I have no problems with her high PCS. Certainly she is among the very best in the world, and in transitions specifically probably one of the top 3. But in the blade control department she is not at Satoko’s level. Compare how they hold their edges in a spiral in their choreo sequence in skate America free skate recently. Or the left foot cluster of each in the step sequence, look how quickly Satoko completes the difficult turns without sacrificing depth of edge. And Daria does not have the musical versatility of Satoko either - has Daria ever shown she can skate to music with a rhythm like Satoko’s hip hop or firedance or to something with a significant and quick change in tempo like Philip glass? As I recall in R&J Daria had to pause for about 5 seconds in between the slow section and the fast section of the final step sequence. And even then the middle and end cuts of her program have very similar beats per minute.

Has Daria ever made the audience cheer for her in the middle of the program just though a facial expression, as Satoko did in Firedance short program at worlds? Aka has she ever held the audience in the palm of her hand? Of course Daria has time develop these skills and I hope she does, and none of this means she should not be scoring 70+ PCS (she should) but all these refinements skills which Satoko took years to learn should be recognized too, not just the entrance into the double axel.

Lastly - if facial expressions aren’t part of the score then how in the world did Medvedeva and Shcherbakova break 70 PCS ever. Their whole identity as skaters rests in their facial expressions and acting ability. These PCS guidelines apply to ice dance too - do chock and Bates and Hubbell and Donohue have the same blade ability and range of motion? Of course not, h/D can cover so much more distance with a single bracket than c/b can. But C/B have the facial expressions and the dance ability. Lipnitskaya got huge PCS because of her haunting facial expression that seemed to stare at you straight from Poland. Judges should care about this hugely. Well of course the real reason for Lipnitskaya’s PCS was narrative of course. But she did perform for sure.

 

[Mauvedreamer]

My objective opinion of the sport is that neither of those girls have memorable programs that would make me sit down to watch them more than once when they aren’t competing against girls I find engaging

now imagine being the girl who puts in the hours and hours of training-- their entire life and blood-- and is subject to unfair judging at the whim of 40 year olds who should know better than to punish children for their own fantasies. either it is a sport or a popularity contest, and right now the judges are telling us its the latter.

Punish children for their own fantasies!! Hmm OK you have completely lost me !! I agree it is a sport however your comment is not making sense to me!! Not sure what being over 40 has to do with anything!! Who are the children!!! What fantasy!! Genuinely Perplexed!!!

 

[florin]

Well I just watched Aliona and honestly I was expecting something a lot worse than what I saw, based on the score and what I read here.

IMO she just needs more mileage on it. I think it has a lot of potential and there were a few really nice moments. The levels and URs will improve when she's in better shape and more confident. It was pretty obvious this was a brand new program and her first time competing it and she wasn't completely sure of herself.

I'm in agreement the events of last year, the coaching change and getting covid really took a toll on her confidence and even her trust in herself.

I believe that she is on the right path inside herself.

"I want to say a huge thank you to my coaches Eteri Tutberidze, Daniil Gleikhengauz – the whole Tutberidze team - for not turning away from me after all that I sometimes allow myself."

Some people will immediately start shouting "Oh, it's just TT wants to humiliate her and they demands that she continue to apologize".
But it is obvious to me that а) she is aware of the severity of the situation she is in and the reasons that caused it, b) she finds inner (inside herself) support in the thought that the coaches support her. Alyona knows that Eteri believes and loves only one thing - selfless hard work, so..

 

[sclloyd]

I couldn't believe it.

After 4+ minutes of intense skating, I'll sit there and keep a smiling face, thinking that somehow the camera would be direct in my face, so I'd better be prepared to show my respect to the next stater. What a nonsense!

This was discussed at the time, and people dig it up now to prove something? Really weird.

In fact I was one to staunchly defend her and in this thread no less. But I have had a while longer to watch her, listen, etc. and I think perhaps the original critics were correct.

 

[florin]

First of all P stands for program not performance. Here is the ISU’s definition of performance:

“Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition”

Does it say anything about jump content or flow or control? No of course. Your discussion of flow, glide, control into Daria’s jump are valid, but 1) these would go in SS/TR, and 2) Satoko demonstrates blade control and glide in other parts of her program (step sequence, choreo sequence) in equal levels as Daria does before 2A.

If jumps determined performance level then Midori Ito or Irina Slutskaya would have been given the greatest marks in presentation because she was the fastest with the biggest jumps. Today Sakamoto carries the most speed into and out of her jumps but she has never been considered a refined/controlled skater.

In regards to Satoko and evgneia’s tangos, it should be clear who fulfills this the best. Satoko has the proper arm positions and control, the proper distance between her feet, the proper upright back and angles between her shoulders and hips. In short a refined tango. Evgenia has none of this. Satoko intellectually has studied this dance style and understands it, I can’t even say the same for Evgenia. Emotionally they both give a lot though which has always been Evgenia’s strength. But the truth is Satoko was not rewarded for this. Why should it not count for her when she showed more control than Evgenia, and now that a younger skater with fabulous control in Daria comes along suddenly this is a dock against Satoko’s abilities?

As for Daria she emotes wonderfully and has so much strength and intentionally in her movements. A delightful skater. I have no problems with her high PCS. Certainly she is among the very best in the world, and in transitions specifically probably one of the top 3. But in the blade control department she is not at Satoko’s level. Compare how they hold their edges in a spiral in their choreo sequence in skate America free skate recently. Or the left foot cluster of each in the step sequence, look how quickly Satoko completes the difficult turns without sacrificing depth of edge. And Daria does not have the musical versatility of Satoko either - has Daria ever shown she can skate to music with a rhythm like Satoko’s hip hop or firedance or to something with a significant and quick change in tempo like Philip glass? As I recall in R&J Daria had to pause for about 5 seconds in between the slow section and the fast section of the final step sequence. And even then the middle and end cuts of her program have very similar beats per minute.

Has Daria ever made the audience cheer for her in the middle of the program just though a facial expression, as Satoko did in Firedance short program at worlds? Aka has she ever held the audience in the palm of her hand? Of course Daria has time develop these skills and I hope she does, and none of this means she should not be scoring 70+ PCS (she should) but all these refinements skills which Satoko took years to learn should be recognized too, not just the entrance into the double axel.

Lastly - if facial expressions aren’t part of the score then how in the world did Medvedeva and Shcherbakova break 70 PCS ever. Their whole identity as skaters rests in their facial expressions and acting ability. These PCS guidelines apply to ice dance too - do chock and Bates and Hubbell and Donohue have the same blade ability and range of motion? Of course not, h/D can cover so much more distance with a single bracket than c/b can. But C/B have the facial expressions and the dance ability. Lipnitskaya got huge PCS because of her haunting facial expression that seemed to stare at you straight from Poland. Judges should care about this hugely. Well of course the real reason for Lipnitskaya’s PCS was narrative of course. But she did perform for sure.

tbh I'm bored even reading all this "War and Peace" I think you get my point. I basicly understood your idea (especially since it's mainstream, there's nothing new here). So I suggest we finish. At least I'm finish.

 

[sclloyd]

Punish children for their own fantasies!! Hmm OK you have completely lost me !! I agree it is a sport however your comment is not making sense to me!! Not sure what being over 40 has to do with anything!! Who are the children!!! What fantasy!! Genuinely Perplexed!!!

Children being scored by full on adults, being glorified or smeared by international judges based on who RusFed favors at the current point in time.. punishing them for what they think are bad deeds, rewarding them if not. No matter the quality of skating if one has the favor of the media.

 

[dhjh811]

In fact I was one to staunchly defend her and in this thread no less. But I have had a while longer to watch her, listen, etc. and I think perhaps the original critics were correct.

I'm just confused because I've never gotten the impression that she is haughty or has a bad attitude. Have I missed something? The impression I have of Kamila is that she's insanely talented but somewhat nervous and humble. Didn't she give an interview the other day about staying humble?

 

[Decoder]

I'm just confused because I've never gotten the impression that she is haughty or has a bad attitude. Have I missed something? The impression I have of Kamila is that she's insanely talented but somewhat nervous and humble. Didn't she give an interview the other day about staying humble?

I think your impression "insanely talented but somewhat nervous and humble" of Kamila is probably the one most people here share, but you cannot stop people from reading too much into short screen shoots by the cameraman.

 

[Greengemmonster]

I think your impression "insanely talented but somewhat nervous and humble" of Kamila is probably the one most people here share, but you cannot stop people from reading too much into short screen shoots by the cameraman.

That's my impression of Kamila too, although the "nervous" side has probably reduced somewhat.

She's got such a "meme" face off ice, she's super animated and very expressive. I feel like we are starting to see more of that as she matures. I find it charming

 

[rollerblade]

Vivaldi's Four Seasons is my most favourite music of all time. It is so rich, complex and bold.

But it is big big big music to skate to. It is such intense music, that a skater needs to skate very big, very confidently to it, with tonnes of energy. And there's nowhere to hide if something goes wrong. There's a lot of accents to the music that elements have to be matched to. And if momentum is lost, it becomes really obvious.

Oh god, how I wish they would have given Vivaldi's Two Seasons FS to Valieva. Let's face it, there were only Summer & Winter.

Let her barrel down the ice during Summer Presto and punctuate it with her 4T-eu-3S. Glorious!

 

[lopsilceci]

Well, that was an exciting competition! Women was the highlight and I didn't expect to see so many 3As landed one after the other! That was awesome!

About Aliona vs Liza:
I agree with the opinion that the scoring seemed weird and specially in the SP, I thought she should be much closer to Liza and Kamila, but it's also not so shocking that she didn't get scored the way she used to.
I think we all have such high expectations for Aliona's skating, based on what she skated like a couple of seasons ago, that somehow, anything less is not good enough.
I think that these programs are okay, not the best and not the worst. Ultimately, Aliona can make them better, but right now, they're not there yet.
I was hoping that she would go for a second 3axel and was kinda disappointed that she didn't.

Liza has been consistently getting the job done and judges like that. The audiences are also on board with her and that helps her a lot too. As long as she keeps being consistently solid, she's going to get good scores. She looks very determined to get to the Olympics and she's making a solid case for herself. Will be interesting to see how she does and how she gets ranked when she faces not one or two but all 5-6 Eteri girls.

Aliona is the better skater in every way, but right now, consistency is the name of the game. Unless she proves she can also jump 3 3As across both programs and give solid performances competition after competition, she's going to keep losing to Liza.

Kamila was on a level of her own here. It's noticeable how she's working on her combos and her expressiveness and these programs seem to keep getting better and better with each outing. She's always a pleasure to watch.

 

[nussnacker]

Aliona is the better skater in every way, but right now, consistency is the name of the game. Unless she proves she can also jump 3 3As across both programs and give solid performances competition after competition, she's going to keep losing to Liza.

The fun part is even without getting StSq4, Aliona’s original BV with 1 3A is already higher than Liza’s BV with 2.
So in reality she should only need 1 3A, but with the way PCS scoring has been going she’s going to need 2.

 

[bookofcharms]

Children being scored by full on adults, being glorified or smeared by international judges based on who RusFed favors at the current point in time.. punishing them for what they think are bad deeds, rewarding them if not. No matter the quality of skating if one has the favor of the media.

Perhaps this pressure on children justifies an increase in the age limit so the seniors is for adults? I agree that this sport puts a lot of intense pressures on very young people.

 

[sclloyd]

Perhaps this pressure on children justifies an increase in the age limit so the seniors is for adults? I agree that this sport puts a lot of intense pressures on very young people.

Perhaps. But that shifts the blame onto teenagers for being upset about a clearly unjust scoring system instead of correcting the behavior where it should be— with the adults at the judging table and the people responsible for ISUs rules and regulations. Maybe both would be good, considering age limit changes were so favorable in gymnastics, but I don’t think it addresses the fundamentally flawing in the scoring system. Liza would still be beating Aliona by outrageous sums. Keep in mind GPF spots have a high probability of being awarded based on total scores— if Aliona’s scores are artificially suppressed or rather, as I think, hers are fair but others artificially inflated, it can have real impacts on ones career despite the quality of skating presented.

 

[florin]

And what if I say that the main reason for the pressure is incredible competition? And that this reason will not disappear with increasing age?

 

[bookofcharms]

I was more referring to the argument that these senior women are children and hence they are especially vulnerable to the judges.

Either they are senior women or they are children. I think that if we are going to start viewing them as children due to their ages, then that means the most appropriate place for them is in juniors.

Personally, I don’t think it is at all possible classify any of these skaters as ‘children’. They are either 18 or 17. That’s pretty much adult age.

 

[Amei]

Perhaps this pressure on children justifies an increase in the age limit so the seniors is for adults? I agree that this sport puts a lot of intense pressures on very young people.

I don't think forcing 15-17 year olds to compete in juniors is suddenly gong to eradicate any pressure in a country like Russia it would probably only make the pressure they are under worse

 

[Dawn825]

Keep in mind GPF spots have a high probability of being awarded based on total scores

Why do you say this? So far the senior GP seemes to be functioning like normal, unless there's still a chance Russian skaters wont be allowed into France?

Personally, I don’t think it is at all possible classify any of these skaters as ‘children’. They are either 18 or 17. That’s pretty much adult age.

Except for all the ones that are 15 or 16?

 

[sclloyd]

I was more referring to the argument that these senior women are children and hence they are especially vulnerable to the judges.

Either they are senior women or they are children. I think that if we are going to start viewing them as children due to their ages, then that means the most appropriate place for them is in juniors.

Personally, I don’t think it is at all possible classify any of these skaters as ‘children’. They are either 18 or 17. That’s pretty much adult age.

15 year old Kamila is definitely still a child. Anna and Sasha are not old enough yet to legally drive— though soon. Daria and Maia are children too. 16 is the sort of informal “responsibility” age in most countries, even if 18 is legal age in most countries, so I’d say calling 18 year old Aliona a child might be a lot, but Kamila is certainly still one. Then the question is, where do you cut off juniors? 16 might be more appropriate for most countries, but does that prevent pressure inside Russia? And does that solve the judging crisis?