2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[nussnacker]

Thanks for the updates on Polina's situation.
Slightly OT, I realised 'Koenig's disease' is a synonym for 'osteochondritis dissecans', which I actually had heard Polina had - there is a Wikipedia page for it under this name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteochondritis_dissecans#Causes

It sounds like a multifactorial disease, with possible genetic predisposition + environmental causes. The mechanism is not as simple as e.g. cystic fibrosis which follows Mendelian inheritance, where you know that a specific mutation in the CFTR gene inevitably cause the disease phenotype. Rather, it's more like cancer (e.g. BRCA mutations increase risk of breast cancer but it doesn't mean you will get it).
Or to use a closer example which is also related to immunity, Crohn's disease (dozens of genes are associated with higher risk, but so are factors like smoking, diet and prior gut infection) - one of my parents has it, but not me, although studies have shown that as a close relative my risk is substantially higher than the general population.

So yes, it's not wrong for Eteri to say that Polina has a 'genetic disease'. However, Polina's mum is also not wrong to say that genetics is not the 'primary cause' of osteochondritis dissecans (in fact the Wiki article also implicates repetitive strain, which also makes sense for a young athlete). If its etiology is similar to Crohn's, debating whether genetic or environmental factors carry more weight is probably something best left to medical academia rather than the general public.

Thanks a lot for providing detail! Yes, what I read is the last part - that what’s primary or not primary is not determined yet - which is why the claim seemed to be incorrect to me. But I’m also not exactly proficient in medical terminology to interpret this.
My main point was that it seems like a complicated topic and that no one had a goal of lying or making things up.
Even Polina herself says the doctors tried to explain it to her, but she didn’t fully understand what’s going on with her.

 

[Jontor]

Great that Sinitsyna will be at the last Challenger Golden Spin. Her main competition will be You, Tennell, Bell and Gubanova.

 

[Sjs5572]

Just wanted to add my own opinion here.

I see no reason to think it's the fault of a coach when an athlete is injured. Let's face it - a high-level athlete = $$$/reputation for the coach if that athlete is successful. Bottom line, a coach does not want their athlete to be injured. When an athlete is injured, then all the hours of training, condition, etc. go down the drain along with any prospective titles. What coach would want that?

In my view, this is a strawman argument. Of course Eteri does not want her skaters to be injured. The point many of us are trying to make is that the training culture at TT (and some others), while necessary to create women champions under the current system, is dangerous and unhealthy. I think we're coming to a reckoning in women's skating: do the ends justify the means; and thereto, should the the COP system be adjusted to make the ends more reasonable to achieve in a healthy manner?

 

[Jontor]

In my view, this is a strawman argument. Of course Eteri does not want her skaters to be injured. The point many of us are trying to make is that the training culture at TT (and some others), while necessary to create women champions under the current system, is dangerous and unhealthy. I think we're coming to a reckoning in women's skating: do the ends justify the means; and thereto, should the the COP system be adjusted to make the ends more reasonable to achieve in a healthy manner?

Yes, it all comes down to the set of rules and the ISU. Athletes will always, in every sport, push themselves to the limit within the rules. If we are appalled by all these injuries, we should direct our anger towards the ISU and pressure them to work harder for preventing injuries.

This is a very important subject in Alpine skiing right now, where they are looking at equipment, increasing safety measures etc to prevent injuries. This sport has a long history of lots of injuries and EVERY athlete has sometime in their career a broken leg and/or a trashed knee. Multiple knee operations are more common than beer in a bierstube.

 

[nussnacker]

Rusfed announced that they’re planning to take 1.5 or twice the amount of athletes to pre-olympic training camp in Krasnoyarsk to have enough substitutes in case someone’s test returns positive before their travel.

Сборная России по фигурному катанию поедет на предолимпийский сбор в расширенном составе

Сборная России по фигурному катанию поедет на предолимпийский сбор в расширенном составе

www.championat.com

 

[Amei]

In my view, this is a strawman argument. Of course Eteri does not want her skaters to be injured. The point many of us are trying to make is that the training culture at TT (and some others), while necessary to create women champions under the current system, is dangerous and unhealthy. I think we're coming to a reckoning in women's skating: do the ends justify the means; and thereto, should the the COP system be adjusted to make the ends more reasonable to achieve in a healthy manner?

I think its a knee jerk reaction to act like the ISU needs to make changes - skaters (men and women, I'm not sure why you are singling out women) have been getting injured for decades doing less difficult elements. Tara Lipinski and I think Yuna Kim had hip issues tied to doing the loop, I believe Tara cited her injuries for her early retirement. Why not ban the loop jump? Timothy Goebel, the original quad king, struggled with injuries as had Nathan Chen who had a similar injury to the rumored injury Usacheva got over the weekend. Figure skating by the very mechanics of the jumps are unhealthy, why not ban all jumps?

 

[Sjs5572]

I think its a knee jerk reaction to act like the ISU needs to make changes - skaters (men and women, I'm not sure why you are singling out women) have been getting injured for decades doing less difficult elements. Tara Lipinski and I think Yuna Kim had hip issues tied to doing the loop, I believe Tara cited her injuries. Why not ban the loop jump? Timothy Goebel, the original quad king, struggled with injuries as had Nathan Chen who has a similar injury similar to the rumored injury Usacheva got over the weekend. Figure skating by the very mechanics of the jumps are unhealthy, why not ban all jumps?

The percentage of women getting injured who do Ultra C is much higher than the men. However, COP values and program requirements should be reassessed in both disciplines.

 

[alexocfp]

Yes, it all comes down to the set of rules and the ISU. Athletes will always, in every sport, push themselves to the limit within the rules. If we are appalled by all these injuries, we should direct our anger towards the ISU and pressure them to work harder for preventing injuries.

This is a very important subject in Alpine skiing right now, where they are looking at equipment, increasing safety measures etc to prevent injuries. This sport has a long history of lots of injuries and EVERY athlete has sometime in their career a broken leg and/or a trashed knee. Multiple knee operations are more common than beer in a bierstube.

You can never make dangerous sports fully safe.

No matter what rules you bring into skiing, you still have athletes going 120kph or more on snow. So any crash at those speeds means everything is out of your hands in terms of how and where you land.

Or in slalom, having to make all those cuts and turns, doesn’t require much to blow out a knee.

Figure skating is the same. You are on skates and dealing with tremendous forces and landings on one leg. Jumping up and down on one foot is jarring to begin with.

There is nobody to blame and this isn’t a blame situation.

Part of the reason we watch athletes is to see them do superhuman things.

 

[Amei]

The percentage of women getting injured who do Ultra C is much higher than the men. However, COP values and program requirements should be reassessed in both disciplines.

Any data to back your claim up?

• Shcherbakova broke her leg doing a triple not a quad in 2017, her toe injury was an off ice injury.
• Usacheva doesn't do any ultra-c elements and wasn't attempting 1 when she got injured
• Trusova- I have no idea how Trusova broke her foot so maybe quads or triple axel can be blamed.
• Medvedeva, Zagitova, Truskaya, never did these elements at least with any seriousness that I'm aware of
• Bradie doesn't do these elements.
• Rika, perhaps these elements are at fault but it seems like she doesn't fully heal before restarting training

 

[alexocfp]

Rusfed announced that they’re planning to take 1.5 or twice the amount of athletes to pre-olympic training camp in Krasnoyarsk to have enough substitutes in case someone’s test returns positive before their travel.

Сборная России по фигурному катанию поедет на предолимпийский сбор в расширенном составе

Сборная России по фигурному катанию поедет на предолимпийский сбор в расширенном составе

www.championat.com

Фигурное катание: как будет формироваться состав сборной России на Олимпиаду 2022 в Пекине. Спорт-Экспресс

Руководители ФФККР рассказали об ограничениях на этапе «Гран-при» в Сочи и предолимпийском сборе фигуристов.

m.sport-express.ru

More from the federation heads:
Olympic team won’t be chosen until after the European championships.

And the channel 1 trophy will be back and a proposal has been tabled to have the ladies square off against non Russian men in the jump contest. Make this happen please.

 

[Sjs5572]

You can never make dangerous sports fully safe.

No matter what rules you bring into skiing, you still have athletes going 120kph or more on snow. So any crash at those speeds means everything is out of your hands in terms of how and where you land.

Or in slalom, having to make all those cuts and turns, doesn’t require much to blow out a knee.

Figure skating is the same. You are on skates and dealing with tremendous forces and landings on one leg. Jumping up and down on one foot is jarring to begin with.

There is nobody to blame and

Any data to back your claim up?

• Shcherbakova broke her leg doing a triple not a quad in 2017, her toe injury was an off ice injury.
• Usacheva doesn't do any ultra-c elements and wasn't attempting 1 when she got injured
• Trusova- I have no idea how Trusova broke her foot so maybe quads or triple axel can be blamed.
• Medvedeva, Zagitova, Truskaya, never did these elements at least with any seriousness that I'm aware of
• Bradie doesn't do these elements.
• Rika, perhaps these elements are at fault but it seems like she doesn't fully heal before restarting training

Well, overtraining and/or malnutrition may also be a causal factor; however, that would need to be addressed by the ISU outside of the COP system.

 

[Minz]

An interview with Sofia Muravyova. She trained with Sasha at AOP. She says Sasha tried a quintuple lutz on the harness!

 

[sclloyd]

No, this isn’t about it. It’s about people always assuming the absolute worst thing possible and not wanting to see a reasonable root cause.


Let’s look back at history and remember what people said in the past. Just other examples of people doing that. Also touch on Polina and her mom and genetic disease situation, since it was being brought up:

1) When Sasha and Anna first started jumping quads it was always assumed that Eteri is forcing them to do that. People were certain that the girls or their parents did not want this, that all of this was being forced on them, that this was ruining them physically and psychologically. That she doesn’t care and isn’t training quads safely. I remember saying that this doesn’t seem to be the case for me. What happens after a few years? We hear from Sasha first hand on MANY occasions that this is her dream. She loves jumping quads, she loves jumps more than anything and contrary to what people falsely assumed, she wasn’t forced to do that, she was being stopped all the time, which made her upset.

2) let’s take some other situations. That Aliona is being „forced“ to skate to Lovely in exhibition as a form of punishment, and they even put „handcuffs“ on her. Despite Aliona previously saying she liked this particular program. She loves it so much, she made a tattoo about it. This assumption sounds so ridiculous to me, but people are really dead set to see everything in the worst light possible.

3) that Evgenia wanted to take part in Ice Age a year ago, but Eteri intervened and put a stop to it. As if she has power over channel 1 producers. This year we find out that last year Averbukh made her an offer and she herself refused. Or the assumptions that she was forced to go back to Eteri.

Same about the 2 shrimps of Anna. People just go on to assume extreme malnourishment and her eating 2 shrimps per day as a normal thing for her.

If Eteri is telling them to learn to tolerate pain, people automatically assume it means tolerating ANY pain, without regard for severity or causes. No one wants to see anything else behind these words.
Yes, Aliona needs to build stamina. For it she needs to do more runthroughs. This isn’t equal to skating with your leg being torn off. It isn’t equal to her skating in excruciating pain, it just means she needs more runthroughs. How do people manage to make one equal to another is beyond me.

You are arguing a point I never made. Did I say Eteri forces them to train? No. They will train to their own limits. That is irrelevant. I also don’t care about injuries, so why you are bringing up Polina, I don’t know. Where did I comment on Anna eating shrimp? Never. I don’t care what Anna eats.

I simply care about the public obfuscation of coach responsibilities by placing the blame perpetually on the student and never the coach.

You do not introduce a child to an environment at 12 where they learn for years to skate through stress fractures because Alina did or Sasha did and then get upset with them if their leg snaps in two because they thought such pain was normal and everyone had it.

How do you even tell a 15 year old it is their fault for not knowing just how injured they are without any sort of routine investigation from doctors? It is absurd. Especially in freak accidents like Daria’s case.

That is my issue. Not any of the nonsense you listed above.

 

[sclloyd]

In my view, this is a strawman argument. Of course Eteri does not want her skaters to be injured. The point many of us are trying to make is that the training culture at TT (and some others), while necessary to create women champions under the current system, is dangerous and unhealthy. I think we're coming to a reckoning in women's skating: do the ends justify the means; and thereto, should the the COP system be adjusted to make the ends more reasonable to achieve in a healthy manner?

Exactly. No one thinks Eteri is exclusively forcing her athletes into injuries. Highly competitive individuals do damaging things all the time for the sake of titles. It is whether or not is acceptable for her to place blame on the athletes in her camp for injuries when they are simply adhering to a culture she and other coaches have created while simultaneously getting upset with the athletes who avoid injuries by limiting themselves exactly when they know they will injure themselves.

 

[macy]

i see i haven't missed a whole lot in the last week and a half

 

[sclloyd]

You can never make dangerous sports fully safe.

No matter what rules you bring into skiing, you still have athletes going 120kph or more on snow. So any crash at those speeds means everything is out of your hands in terms of how and where you land.

Or in slalom, having to make all those cuts and turns, doesn’t require much to blow out a knee.

Figure skating is the same. You are on skates and dealing with tremendous forces and landings on one leg. Jumping up and down on one foot is jarring to begin with.

There is nobody to blame and this isn’t a blame situation.

Part of the reason we watch athletes is to see them do superhuman things.

If it isn’t a blame situation then you should change your previous posts in defense of Eteri’s camp placing all blame on Daria?

Eteri should control her coaches if she doesn’t want to look an obscene fool in PR. Even if she doesn’t personally think the injury is Daria’s fault and even if this happens in every camp, it is indefensible to have your team blabbering such statements.

 

[alexocfp]

Exactly. No one thinks Eteri is exclusively forcing her athletes into injuries. Highly competitive individuals do damaging things all the time for the sake of titles. It is whether or not is acceptable for her to place blame on the athletes in her camp for injuries when they are simply adhering to a culture she and other coaches have created while simultaneously getting upset with the athletes who avoid injuries by limiting themselves exactly when they know they will injure themselves.

Nothing wrong with having a culture of excellence and winning that she is fostering. It is to be applauded.

If it isn’t a blame situation then you should change your previous posts in defense of Eteri’s camp placing all blame on Daria?

Eteri should control her coaches if she doesn’t want to look an obscene fool in PR. Even if she doesn’t personally think the injury is Daria’s fault and even if this happens in every camp, it is indefensible to have your team blabbering such statements.

Injuries aren’t a blame situation. Not the same thing as calling someone out for halfassing drills.

Who cares about PR? I want to see quads and bulldogs competing against each other.

Coaches can publicly call out their players. Happens all the time in sports. It’s hardly a big deal.

 

[[email protected]]

The percentage of women getting injured who do Ultra C is much higher than the men. However, COP values and program requirements should be reassessed in both disciplines.

Any statistics supporting this statement? Or even the answer to an easier question: is there a man jumping quads who was never injured?

 

[sclloyd]

Nothing wrong with having a culture of excellence and winning that she is fostering. It is to be applauded.

Injuries aren’t a blame situation. Not the same thing as calling someone out for halfassing drills.

Who cares about PR? I want to see quads and bulldogs competing against each other.

Coaches can publicly call out their players. Happens all the time in sports. It’s hardly a big deal.

When is the last time a coach blamed an in-sport injury on the student? Did Z call out the recklessness of Anna to media for out of sport injury? It is not acceptable. Especially when your student is a minor. And especially when you have a known record of telling your students to ignore pain. You can be excellent without being a POS who trash talks your own injured student at their lowest point, before the diagnosis is even confirmed.

 

[Paulipau]

Any statistics supporting this statement? Or even the answer to an easier question: is there a man jumping quads who was never injured.

Or even is there an elite skater (International medal contender for example) who was never injured?

Because so far all I hear is: