2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[sclloyd]

I have a vivid imagination. Can I try my hand at a theoretical or 2?

Theoretically, Liza can be a 8 time world gold medalist, an Olympic gold medalist in 3 disciplines, and a 2 time Olympic gold medalist in the pole vault. Heck, let’s make her a gold medalist in luge while we are at it. Haha

Don‘t know why some Aliona fans are bitter about Liza. Be good sports and congratulate Liza for being better for a year and a half. And for being able to compete at a high level a decade into her career. Or don’t. Doesn’t change the results which is what matters the most anyway.

I know that I’ll be one of the first to congratulate Aliona if she manages to beat Liza before Liza retires or beats her for the Olympic spot.

And theoretically pigs can fly and you’re actually better than Messi, but you seem to have a habit of missing my point so idc.

 

[sclloyd]

I 100% agree. However, PCS is often a "momentum" score, in which it tends to climb when skaters put out consistently strong programs and start to be seen as serious contenders. We saw this with Miki Ando in 2011, Julia L in 2013-14, and Alina in 2018. Once Alena starts replicating her form from two years ago, I expect both of her marks will skyrocket.

Yes… problem really is that because it is such a momentum thing you can’t take it away by kicking yourself down.

Aliona didn’t have the 3A in her NY short in France but the performance was much better than her short in Canada and her free skate has absolutely improved from Canada, and even more so both were better than what she gave at Finlandia. I would expect because of this slow improvement we’d see some reward. But that just isn’t reflected in the scores. And not necessarily because of her skating but because of general management… the horrendous nature of the first set of programs, then swapping both programs, then Daniil’s interview.

 

[lurkerghost1]

There are unfortunately 5 PCS components. Sasha IMO has pretty good SS and decent TR. CO is hit and miss. Where she tends to be weakest is in the PE and especially IN. The tough thing is PCS scoring just does not quite reflect the differences and I think that really confuses skaters on what they need to work on. The old Alyona and Sasha are probably the strongest in SS. Anna, Darya are definitely weaker there but much stronger in IN and musicality. Liza Tuks has probably the best PE in my subjective mind but her SS is……a joke.

in my opinion Usacheva is quite ahead of Sasha in skating skills too. I'd even say that Usacheva is the most rounded in PCS right now of the Russian ladies on paper given Alyona's regression. I think the only thing Usacheva lacks is star power and versatility to hold the audience in the palm of her hand but really her basic skating quality and transitional content is phenomenal along with her performance skills.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Yes… problem really is that because it is such a momentum thing you can’t take it away by kicking yourself down.

Aliona didn’t have the 3A in her NY short in France but the performance was much better than her short in Canada and her free skate has absolutely improved from Canada, and even more so both were better than what she gave at Finlandia. I would expect because of this slow improvement we’d see some reward. But that just isn’t reflected in the scores. And not necessarily because of her skating but because of general management… the horrendous nature of the first set of programs, then swapping both programs, then Daniil’s interview.

yes Alena's momentum was hurt by the GPF cancellation in this case. 4th place at the GPF even behind Tuktamysheva again would still have been good for her PCS. And had she managed a bronze over Tuktamysheva her whole momentum going into nationals would be very different.

 

[wakuwaku]

Not true at all. Her quad technique is flawed although not as flawed as Kamila's but more importantly Kamila goes into hers with more speed and Kamila has those aesthetic landings.

Could you elaborate what's wrong with Kamila's 4T and 4S so much that her technique there is worse than Sasha's 4S and 4T?

While I'm fully onboard with her 4T even with the prerotation

Why you are saying it like 99% of men are not jumping 4T exactly like that? It's pretty common for toeloop jump in general - is it not?

her 4S and 3A imo are not high enough to get great height

I disagree. Everyone's 4S is not very high (that trait is built-in in the jump technique) - so standarts of assessment here should be lower (or there is only single standart of height for all jumps - meaning all quads are automatically guaranteed +1 for height due to be higher than triple - which in turn explains btw why clean quads generally tends to get higher GOEs than triples). Distance on her 3A is so great that height there is good enough as well - else she wouldn't be able to jump that far. Liza's 3A is looking much worse in comparison even if it jumped more vertically and maybe even higher. There is no distance and very slow preparation.

Part of my point is that PCS shouldn’t be tied to technical elements— does landing a quad make someone suddenly better at connecting with the music and audience? Not really.

Are you sure? You said that clean Cruella program should deserve high PCS as far as I remember - and there is very little except quads in the first half of Trusova's free program (as well as with Nathan's free btw). Clearly quads there are used as tools to connecting with audience/enhancing level of performance, aren't they? If so - why you deny the same function for quads in Kamila's Bolero?

ISU will never make figure skating a truly popular sport until they correct this. How many people stating across platforms say they just aren’t watching because the result has already been determined ahead of time? It’s not only hurting Kamila’s reputation, it’s just bad PR for the sport in general.

I wonder, are you really implying that there can be any doubts of any sane person about NOT the first place of a skater with three clean quads and two clean 3As when other competitors can't jump even 3+3 combos - or it's just your idea of a joke? Let's be honest here - Kamila's there is used by ISU as the same figure as Nathan compared to his competitors - and their both scores are used as ticket-selling tool. Contrary to what you said it's actually very good PR for figure skating and whether she is higher by 30 or 50 points is not even important there. The higher the better - general public loves world records. More accurate scores will be at a competition with rivals of more closer level to Kamila - where it will matter.

How many years did Zhenya get away with her flutz? Something her own fans acknowledged was an issue. Were the fans wrong? Is a lutz take-off really from an inside edge? The judges are not infallible simply because they are scoring in your favor.

The same can be said about Osmond's flutz. Maybe ignoring Medvedeva's flutz was part of the deal between Russian and Canadian judges for ignoring Osmond's flutz as well. Or it's even simpler. We all know that top skaters are having some degree of tech calls immunity compared to weaker ones. It becomes obvious for any person who bother to analyze typical big competition protocols. Skaters with the most number of tech calls are those from first flights. You can argue about URs as the sign of their low level - but you can't explain edge calls since they are not dependent of skater's level. It's just how ISU system works in practice - they need to sell tickets and "stars" images. And it won't look very good for sponsors and casual viewers if top skaters are slaughtered by tech panel.

 

[lurkerghost1]

you don't believe in a skater progress on a 1 year scope?

Looks like a conspiracy theory for me. Human brains are vulnerable to apophenia.

I do. I believe skaters such as Michelle Kwan 1995 - 1996 can have a glow up like that in one year. In IJS there have been many phenomenal debuts such at in this chart which covers both Evgenia and Alina's senior debuts. Both their PCS rises but it goes along with the crowd, you never see either of their PCS rise outrageously compared to the rest of the surrounding skaters as Sotnikova's was or Davis/Smolkin.

There is only one other skater/team which had such a rapid rise as Sotnikova or Davis/Smolkin that I can think of in the last. Can you guess who it is? It was this extremely interesting and sudden rise of a certain French team. And I think that reeks of politics just as much as these two cases. if that makes me conspiracy theorist so be it.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Could you elaborate what's wrong with Kamila's 4T and 4S so much that her technique there is worse than Sasha's 4S and 4T?

4T - Sasha has 180 degrees but Kamila has > 180. Sasha axis is also more stable while Kamila relies on the Rippon. For Kamilla we've seen her very sideways in the air many times on 4T which I can't remember seeing for Sasha even when she misses it.

Why you are saying it like 99% of men are not jumping 4T exactly like that? It's pretty common for toeloop jump in general - is it not?

As I said I consider Kamila's 4T the best jump in women's since midori Ito's 3A because even with the prerotation it is just so huge and effortless. I pointed it out because we are not talking about the 99% here, we are talking about the best 4Ts of all time - both because I think she has one of them, and because she gets scores like them. She gets the same or higher GOE on the 4T than Hanyu or Chen, who do NOT jump 4T exactly like that, they have very little prerotation and a very light toe-tap. So it does not matter how bad Zhou or Aliev's 4T technique is because in scores Kamila compares to the best of the best, and I'd still put it up in the top tier even despite the technique. It is absolutely fair to point this out.

I disagree. Everyone's 4S is not very high (that trait is built-in in the jump technique) - so standarts of assessment here should be lower (or there is only single standart of height for all jumps - meaning all quads are automatically guaranteed +1 for height due to be higher than triple - which in turn explains btw why clean quads generally tends to get higher GOEs than triples). Distance on her 3A is so great that height there is good enough as well - else she wouldn't be able to jump that far. Liza's 3A is looking much worse in comparison even if it jumped more vertically and maybe even higher. There is no distance and very slow preparation.

Correct, that is why quads get higher GOE and also why we see women's GOEs on triple jumps going down now that the quads are standard. For example Trusova and Shcherbakova got higher GOEs on short program jumps in juniors but now the judges "hold their GOEs" for the quads in the free skate. Also Hanyu's 4S is massive as is Sadovsky's and Kagiyama's among others. Vladimir Samoilov the ex-Russian has a great 4S too, so big he can add an Eu-4S on it.

Yes, I would definitely say Liza's 3A does not qualify for great distance and is usually a +2 jump (so do the judges) just as Kamila's does not qualify for great height (the judges do not). Kamila's 3A is good, not on the level of Kostornaia's or Ito's or Higuchi's. Her 4T makes up for it though

As for 4S, Trusova's 4S is massive, truly massive in height and length. Kamila's is not as impressive, it looks more like Sofia Samodelkina's - another fave of mine but huge jumps are not her strength. You asked why Sasha's 4S is better on technique, once again the body position is more stable than Kamilla 4S.

 

[wakuwaku]

It's a flaw no doubt. To me the tech is more like a barrier to higher PCS not that you will defo get it. Like Aliona will need to show 3As to get access to higher PCS.

Same way we see how Kolyada/Jason gets around 90 PCS but cannot access Yuzu/Nathan level without the extra tech.

It's not that simple as linking it to TES. I think you just don't understand how PCS works in practice. Forget about PCS categories - for judges they means almost nothing. If that wasn't the case - the difference between them would be much higher. While TES indeed works like it was designed for modern system - PCS works exactly like it was in 6.0 system. Main factors playing role here:
1) number of flight/skate. The first skater in the first flight will always get relatively low PCS - just because judges are not sure how much the next skaters can be better and they need to leave place for them in PCS. Exactly like it was in 6.0. See Sinitsyna's PCS as example. In second flight and higher skaters tends to get automatically higher PCS despite their actual performance.
2) difference between skaters just skated before and skated just now on the scale of the whole strength level (by strength I mean not only presentation and confidence - but cleanliness, TES level and number of tech calls). If judges can see that the skater was much better than previous one - they would give them much higher PCS. But not very high if there can be even stronger skaters ahead. If the skater was worse - they determine between which skaters he should be based on their previous notes about their own impressions of previous skaters.
3) level of crowd support. Applauses affects judges very noticeably. It's one of the reasons local skaters are usually getting much higher PCS even from international judges.
4) fame, reputation, federation support, age. It's far from being major factor though - despite how many people are trying to set such narration.

All it means that PCS score is completely relative to skaters on current competition and there is zero sense in trying to compare scores between competitions. What matters is not scores - but places. Scores is just a tool to place skaters - nothing more. It means Valieva's PCS were relative to Tuktamysheva's PCS. Since judges decided to support Liza's quite slow skating very much (giving her 70+ PCS) - given how local crowd loves her - Kamila just after Liza's skate looked like goddess of transitions/skating skills (even if she wasn't). If we add here sky-high TES and impressive quads - judges were just forced to show her very big difference in level of strength between Tuktamysheva and Valieva. Giving Kamila only 2 or 3 point of difference in PCS would look like a joke. So we have 76 PCS. If Tuktamysheva were given 66 PCS - Kamila would get 72.
It means that in different competition (for example in GPF) with rivals more close to Valieva's level - she would get lower PCS. Because judges would make place for her close rivals there. If you don't believe in my theory - try to analyze past competitions PCS scores with that in mind. It's very important to remember though - you can't analyze skaters randomly chosen. To understand PCS scores - one must watch skaters in exact order they skated one after another. It's that important. And you will see that many PCS anomalies are actually becoming clear (for example Satoko's PCS underscoring etc.).
Given the above all that infinite complains about Eteri's skaters overscoring makes me just smile tiredly. If you don't like it - make other skaters to show the same TES content more or less cleanly. It will be the first step to get the same scores as Eteri's skaters for any nonRussian skater as well. You can say that PCS is TES-related in a sense - but as you can see it's much more complex too.

 

[Azikin]

Don‘t know why some Aliona fans are bitter about Liza.

You might not remember that competition when Aliona was bullied by her.. I lost all respect for Liza that day.

 

[Paulipau]

You might not remember that competition when Aliona was bullied by her.. I lost all respect for Liza that day.

Could you remind, please?

 

[Dawn825]

Aliona didn’t have the 3A in her NY short in France but the performance was much better than her short in Canada and her free skate has absolutely improved from Canada, and even more so both were better than what she gave at Finlandia. I would expect because of this slow improvement we’d see some reward. But that just isn’t reflected in the scores. And not necessarily because of her skating but because of general management… the horrendous nature of the first set of programs, then swapping both programs, then Daniil’s interview.

I don't think Lovely works at all as a FS honestly. As a shorter show program under spotlights with her hair down and a few easier jumps, the vibe works. In a competition setting, it isnt sustainable. If they're really committed to using this song, they should mix it with the rock version, to give it some life. But no, theyre changing the dress.
You can also clearly see how nervous she is going into every jump. And she isnt really doing the triple axel. We all knew going into this season that she wouldnt be on the team without it. The judges know that too. The bad press and bad programs are really unfair to her, but wouldn't matter if she was showing more technical content.

 

[sclloyd]

Are you sure? You said that clean Cruella program should deserve high PCS as far as I remember - and there is very little except quads in the first half of Trusova's free program (as well as with Nathan's free btw). Clearly quads there are used as tools to connecting with audience/enhancing level of performance, aren't they? If so - why you deny the same function for quads in Kamila's Bolero?

I wonder, are you really implying that there can be any doubts of any sane person about NOT the first place of a skater with three clean quads and two clean 3As when other competitors can't jump even 3+3 combos - or it's just your idea of a joke? Let's be honest here - Kamila's there is used by ISU as the same figure as Nathan compared to his competitors - and their both scores are used as ticket-selling tool. Contrary to what you said it's actually very good PR for figure skating and whether she is higher by 30 or 50 points is not even important there. The higher the better - general public loves world records. More accurate scores will be at a competition with rivals of more closer level to Kamila - where it will matter.

The same can be said about Osmond's flutz. Maybe ignoring Medvedeva's flutz was part of the deal between Russian and Canadian judges for ignoring Osmond's flutz as well. Or it's even simpler. We all know that top skaters are having some degree of tech calls immunity compared to weaker ones. It becomes obvious for any person who bother to analyze typical big competition protocols. Skaters with the most number of tech calls are those from first flights. You can argue about URs as the sign of their low level - but you can't explain edge calls since they are not dependent of skater's level. It's just how ISU system works in practice - they need to sell tickets and "stars" images. And it won't look very good for sponsors and casual viewers if top skaters are slaughtered by tech panel.

If we look at the quads in the beginning of Bolero vs the quads at the beginning of Cruella we can see immediately that Bolero has more crossovers. This extends into the entire program. Sasha’s set ups are much more akin to the men like Yuzu where yes obviously you need speed and distance to get properly into the jump so it’ll be emptier than a non-quad program. However she doesn’t set up for ever quad with a loop of crossovers around the ice. Bolero HEAVILY relies on crossovers and adds those weird flailing movements to distract from the fact that the program has very few genuine transitions.

First place may be one thing. Awarding a such an extensive lead by points and world records when she hasn’t faced anyone who is near/at her level is pretty ridiculous.

And yes, maybe it is that the judges are fixing tech calls but suggesting that calling bad technique of bad skaters is bad PR and that’s why not actually scoring by your own set of rules is acceptable is a dumb excuse. Either the tech panel matters or it doesn’t. It’s much worse PR for casual viewers to see a performance or two and decide to learn more and then one of the first things they come across by legitimate fans when learning the rules is that they’re selectively applied and don’t actually mean anything. That’s what keeps casual viewers just casual viewers. It’s why my mom stopped watching all the competitions when I was young after the 2004 Olympics. After that I think we maybe viewed the 2006 worlds and that was it. I didn’t even know that’s why until I brought up the scoring to her and she said “oh that’s why I stopped watching a while ago”

It’s very damaging.

 

[sclloyd]

Could you remind, please?

I think they’re referring to Liza’s behavior at the podium ceremony for Finlandia at Aliona’s international debut in 2018. But whatever it was, they seem to be over it. They looked like they had a fair bit of fun at the Gala in Canada, and tbh even at ‘18 Finlandia it looked like it was just lots going on and Aliona was still super short so I think Liza just didn’t hear and was distracted because she wasn’t expecting smol Aliona to be sneaking up behind to make small talk with her.

 

[silveruskate]

@lurkerghost1 It's not an exact science, but this blog shows Valieva can do a 3A at 57cm. This is similar in height to Aliona in the year 19-20. The long distance she gets could give the perception it's not as high.

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Liza's is quite low at 52cm, but that is what is incredible about Liza and Mishin. The time taken for the first revolution is very quick so she reaches her top rotation speed quickly. Maximum efficiency and the lower height is maximum stability.

 

[silveruskate]

I think they’re referring to Liza’s behavior at the podium ceremony for Finlandia at Aliona’s international debut in 2018. But whatever it was, they seem to be over it. They looked like they had a fair bit of fun at the Gala in Canada, and tbh even at ‘18 Finlandia it looked like it was just lots going on and Aliona was still super short so I think Liza just didn’t hear and was distracted because she wasn’t expecting smol Aliona to be sneaking up behind to make small talk with her.

I remember Aliona trying to be a part of a conversation and Liza stood right in front of her to block her. But I never held it against Liza since like you said they're over it and emotions can run high. Liza was upset about some of the calls she received and GOE that event. No doubt she probably reflected on that momentary lapse of judgment afterwards and there was some backlash from fans on social media too. The next time they met Liza was very kind.

 

[sclloyd]

in my opinion Usacheva is quite ahead of Sasha in skating skills too. I'd even say that Usacheva is the most rounded in PCS right now of the Russian ladies on paper given Alyona's regression. I think the only thing Usacheva lacks is star power and versatility to hold the audience in the palm of her hand but really her basic skating quality and transitional content is phenomenal along with her performance skills.

I think that Daria does have that sort of star power that Aliona has. She really draws you in. I thought originally that Daria should’ve been ahead of Sasha in Skate America and then went and rewatched them in more detail a second time around and thought man, if Daria could improve her edges and add a quad or 3A she would be very much like Aliona. I don’t know if I agree she’s got better skating skills than Sasha though, and unfortunately composition and transitions are so reliant on choreography but she’s definitely got better spins and landings.

 

[sclloyd]

I remember Aliona trying to be a part of a conversation and Liza stood right in front of her to block her. But I never held it against Liza since like you said they're over it and emotions can run high. Liza was upset about some of the calls she received and GOE that event. No doubt she probably reflected on that momentary lapse of judgment afterwards and there was some backlash from fans on social media too. The next time they met Liza was very kind.

I had mad respect for her posting her own protocols calling out the GOE of her lutz. Liza takes no $h*t from anyone.

 

[sclloyd]

I don't think Lovely works at all as a FS honestly. As a shorter show program under spotlights with her hair down and a few easier jumps, the vibe works. In a competition setting, it isnt sustainable. If they're really committed to using this song, they should mix it with the rock version, to give it some life. But no, theyre changing the dress.
You can also clearly see how nervous she is going into every jump. And she isnt really doing the triple axel. We all knew going into this season that she wouldnt be on the team without it. The judges know that too. The bad press and bad programs are really unfair to her, but wouldn't matter if she was showing more technical content.

I disagree that it wouldn’t matter if she was showing more technical content. Even the landed 3A program netted her very little positive PR. And Sasha still hasn’t escaped her junior reputation of being a bad PCS skater, even when she lands everything and has clearly improved.

 

[lurkerghost1]

@lurkerghost1 It's not an exact science, but this blog shows Valieva can do a 3A at 57cm. This is similar in height to Aliona in the year 19-20. The long distance she gets could give the perception it's not as high.

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Liza's is quite low at 52cm, but that is what is incredible about Liza and Mishin. The time taken for the first revolution is very quick so she reaches her top rotation speed quickly. Maximum efficiency and the lower height is maximum stability.

I think when evaluating GOE jumps you have to base it on the visual. It’s cool to see Kamila jumps so high but because she looks so tall on ice 57 cm 3A does not have the same look as Liza 52 cm who looks shorter or Aliona 3A in 2019 who was also shorter. Only my opinion though but I could certainly see those who argue it should be about absolute height

 

[sclloyd]

I think when evaluating GOE jumps you have to base it on the visual. It’s cool to see Kamila jumps so high but because she looks so tall on ice 57 cm 3A does not have the same look as Liza 52 cm who looks shorter or Aliona 3A in 2019 who was also shorter. Only my opinion though but I could certainly see those who argue it should be about absolute height

I guess if you argue it should be about absolute height you have to consider the expected proportional height to body size/height just from a physics perspective. But more annoyingly you’d have to review every jump for height before awarding GOE. Which is just being nitpicky for really no good reason, considering that GOE for height and length have never really been questioned, but rather other parts of a jump and much more extensively, other parts of the scoring system.

If they’re going to measure the height of each jump to award GOE then they should absolutely add other parameters to it like degrees of pre-rotation, pick angle, edge angle, distance etc. The Japanese for example get a LOT of distance due to their technique but get less height. How do you balance that out?

If you’re breaking it down into such minutia there are far more important things to dwell on, imo.