2021 Internationaux de France: Men's Free Skate

[el henry]

wow, someone actually complain about PCS but nothing about Yuma 90+... where are those that complain about Nathan, Vincent, getting high PCS on their second years in the Senior etc.. they remain silence. ,

I don't understand.

Do you think that Yuma was overstored in PCS? Can you explain why?

But, just so you don't feel alone, I certainly have commented that on PCS alone, I have seen skates where I believed that Nathan and Vincent were overscored on PCS (even if the result overall was warranted). And I think Yuma's PCS here was probably too high, although he rightfully won the competition.

So you see, no silence.

 

[yume]

Again, I need to ask when and where? What skaters? What nasty remarks for these "unpopular" skaters were "accepted" as normal? And you are agreeing with @Tavi... : she specifically said *no* skater should be subjected to this.

Since this started with criticism of Jason's programs, I have seen no one react as though their pets were killed when responding to the criticism specifically of his skating or his programs. Can you tell me where? I have seen posters (like me) say that Jason's artistry is fairly scored and other skaters do not have Jason's skills. That is my opinion. Others may have other opinions, that is what we express.

But his smile, his personality, his demeanor, I've heard for eight years and it does get tiring.

Here (and on SM) and i don't need to search in all threads to give you an example. If you have never seen nasty comments about other skaters, you are blessed, that's your luck.

No skater deserve nasty comments, but there is a difference between valid criticism and nastiness. And that's were some people can't draw the line. There is a difference between saying "this skater's jumps and moves are so ugly" and saying "judges overmarked this skater's jumps because they have low height and lack of rotations and the moves didn't match the music".

It's like the "criticize the judges or the fed, not the skater". You can litteraly say judges overmarked this, undermarked this, they are biased ane unqualified, fed is unfair with its decisions and na na na, never talking about the skater personally... Some will still come and tell you that you are rude with the skater and disrespectful. Especially when the skater is liked.

And my comment wasn't especially in relation with Brown. Not everything is related to him. It was a general observation.

 

[el henry]

Here (and on SM) and i don't need to search in all threads to give you an example. If you have never seen nasty comments about other skaters, you are blessed, that's your luck.

No skater deserve nasty comments, but there is a difference between valid criticism and nastiness. And that's were some people can't draw the line. There is a difference between saying "this skater's jumps and moves are so ugly" and saying "judges overmarked this skater's jumps because they have low height and lack of rotations and the moves didn't match the music".

It's like the "criticize the judges or the fed, not the skater". You can litteraly say judges overmarked this, undermarked this, they are biased ane unqualified, fed is unfair with its decisions and na na na, never talking about the skater personally... Some will still come and tell you that you are rude with the skater and disrespectful. Especially when the skater is liked.

And my comment wasn't especially in relation with Brown. Not everything is related to him. It was a general observation.

The conversation started with Jason, and Tavi's remarks that you quoted were about Jason, so I related it that way. I apologize if you meant it more generally.

I really try hard not to bring other social media criticism into GS, although I do not always succeed. It is a minefield. If I tried to answer every homophobic, misogynistic and generally prejudiced rant about Jason from social media, I'd be doing nothing else.

I am afraid that the word "Some" does not help me, unless it is referring to social media again. I have not seen anyone here say that comments about overscoring, etc. were rude or disrespectful. So I don't think it is a valid criticism of posts *on Goldenskate*.

Again, social media in general, heaven only knows

 

[dalenofff]

I don't understand.

Do you think that Yuma was overstored in PCS? Can you explain why?

But, just so you don't feel alone, I certainly have commented that on PCS alone, I have seen skates where I believed that Nathan and Vincent were overscored on PCS (even if the result overall was warranted). And I think Yuma's PCS here was probably too high, although he rightfully won the competition.

So you see, no silence.

I don't think he was over score at all, because I figure PCS is whatever the judges decided ( I can like a program but I'm not a judge) .. I'm just wondering about the silence that those that was always critical on Nathan, Vincent PCS in their early year and even now up are silence when it a skater they like all I heard is crickets (fan of Yuru...;D ), etc... seem like double standard to me is all.. LOL

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

wow, someone actually complain about PCS but nothing about Yuma 90+... where are those that complain about Nathan, Vincent, getting high PCS on their second years in the Senior etc.. they remain silence. ,

We all know PCS scoring often has nothing to do with the abilities skaters possess in the various categories. The range of scores between skaters on PCS isn't realistic either. I'm pointing out what I noticed in this particular men's event. I've also pointed out what I notice in other events when I check protocols, especially when it's rather glaring. There's a subjective element at play. But mostly for the judges, it's about rep factors and politics, in addition to skaters' performances. Unless and until the ISU gets judges on the panel with backgrounds in chorography, performance, and movement aesthetics, the frustrating disparities in PCS scoring will continue.

BTW, Yuma Kagiyama is a precocious phenom with amazing performance and technical skills, even at his young age. While 90 is debatably a bit high for this point in time in his career, hey, it's not the most glaring GOE-gift-giving in this competition. Not by a long shot. Also, if you don't understand why Nathan is deserving of good PCS scores, that's your problem. Vincent is not unworthy of decent PCS scores either. When guys skate great programs with superlative quads consistently, they tend to get high PCS scores, often warranted for the most part. This scoring system is far from perfect. That's what I'm talking about. But if you want to pick and choose who you think deserves and does not deserve good PCS on the basis of who your favorite skaters are, then you are no better than some of the judges in being able to distinguish between skaters' individual abilities across the various PCS categories.

Enjoy the rest of the season, as you can.

 

[dalenofff]

We all know PCS scoring often has nothing to do with the abilities skaters possess in the various categories. The range of scores between skaters on PCS isn't realistic either. I'm pointing out what I noticed in this particular men's event. I've also pointed out what I notice in other events when I check protocols, especially when it's rather glaring. There's a subjective element at play. But mostly for the judges, it's about rep factors and politics, in addition to skaters' performances. Unless and until the ISU gets judges on the panel with backgrounds in chorography, performance, and movement aesthetics, the frustrating disparities in PCS scoring will continue.

BTW, Yuma Kagiyama is a precocious phenom with amazing performance and technical skills, even at his young age. While 90 is debatably a bit high for this point in time in his career, hey, it's not the most glaring GOE-gift-giving in this competition. Not by a long shot. Also, if you don't understand why Nathan is deserving of good PCS scores, that's your problem. Vincent is not unworthy of decent PCS scores either. When guys skate great programs with superlative quads consistently, they tend to get high PCS scores, often warranted for the most part. This scoring system is far from perfect. That's what I'm talking about. But if you want to pick and choose who you think deserves and does not deserve good PCS on the basis of who your favorite skaters are, then you are no better than some of the judges in being able to distinguish between skaters' individual abilities across the various PCS categories.

Enjoy the rest of the season, as you can.

You miss understand me.. I always believe Nathan and Vincent deserve their PCS.. I'm pointing out that when they were in the same place as Yuma.. the constant complaint was why did Nathan get PCS this high blah blah blah (mostly from Han Yu fan).. now there is hardly a peep for Yuma high PCS... I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy is all... LOL... PCS to me is sometime like the artistic old skating scoring you have to prove your persistence and longevity before the judge start giving you high artistic score regardless of how artistic you really are (most of the case, not always )..

 

[Tavi...]

I don't think he was over score at all, because I figure PCS is whatever the judges decided ( I can like a program but I'm not a judge) .. I'm just wondering about the silence that those that was always critical on Nathan, Vincent PCS in their early year and even now up are silence when it a skater they like all I heard is crickets (fan of Yuru...;D ), etc... seem like double standard to me is all.. LOL

I think most people fall into one of two groups:

(1) Those who think only quads matter, and anyone who can jump a lot of quads - no matter how juniorish or lacking in skating skills, etc - deserves all the PCS, and anyone who can’t shouldn’t even be competing, but if they do, they don’t deserve any PCS. Bonus to any quad jumper with lots of medals. Based on how they mark, a lot of judges apparently think like this.

(2) Those who have noticed that PCS categories are totally unrelated to how many quads you’ve jumped, but who are tired of fighting about it because it’s not going to change. Apparently there are not too many judges in this group.

I don’t think most people are hypocritical, but I do think most people see what they want to see, and it’s often not based on what they’re actually looking at.

 

[4everchan]

i think some of you forget how badly Patrick was treated for getting high PCS .... and he did have quads. There were some words derived from his name that actually had to be banned from this forum. I felt attacked just for being Patrick's fan. I am not willing to enter the Jason Brown debate some of you are having. But I have not forgotten how some users did constantly go out of their way to disparage Patrick and ridicule his fans, for getting high PCS... while right now, some people are constantly asking for higher and higher PCS for Jason for instance... that's all I will say.

 

[karne]

i think some of you forget how badly Patrick was treated for getting high PCS .... and he did have quads. There were some words derived from his name that actually had to be banned from this forum. I felt attacked just for being Patrick's fan. I am not willing to enter the Jason Brown debate some of you are having. But I have not forgotten how some users did constantly go out of their way to disparage Patrick and ridicule his fans, for getting high PCS... while right now, some people are constantly asking for higher and higher PCS for Jason for instance... that's all I will say.

And all I will say to that is that Jason is yet to win a GP by falling on his backside four times. There was a reason the reaction to Chan was what it was.

 

[4everchan]

And all I will say to that is that Jason is yet to win a GP by falling on his backside four times. There was a reason the reaction to Chan was what it was.

what you are truly saying is that Jason has never won a GP title, nor a world medal, and that's why people are not being as mean to him - they don't see him as a threat to their favourites... because they are mean to Nathan and Vincent, (perhaps in lesser degree than they were to Patrick) and these guys have won GP title(s) and world medal(s)... I am not interested in debating this further so you will excuse me if I do not respond to any more attacks of a skater who is now retired and didn't deserve the angry comments he received for judges placing him, rightfully so or not, on top of the podium

 

[lariko]

Deniss is a better performer aesthetically than Messing, Aliev, Sato, and Mozalev,

To me this season Vasiliev looks awkward and not quite sure what to do with his newly robust frame, with the loss of his formerly impressive smoothness, speed and spins. It is particularly awkward with his hair styling that is not whimsical; it only highlights his confusion about what to do with no longer being charmingly boyish.

Mozalev delivered this specific program in one breath (I don’t want to remember his short). But in the free, he absolutely earned his spot above Vasiliev on balance in FS, with his components were lower than pretty much anyone, despite easily the most pleasing program without any single visible error. From all of them, it was his night, when everything went without a hitch. He got modest GoEs and modest PCSs and got dinged on a 3A that initially got positive GoE. There is zero reason to imply he blinded anyone on the panel with his quads. All of his GoE were consistent between 9 judges except one 4 from Judge 2 who really liked his StSq, but Judge 2 didn’t specifically favour Mozalev, they had slightly higher marks than other judges between the skaters form what I can see.

Aliev is exceptional in his ability to invite the audience into his waltz. He is a definition of mature charisma (in the 20ies range). Vasiliev lacks that connection with the audience and compelling conveyance of a character. His choice of music is his own, and, well, he is not entertaining or expressive enough to understand what is supposed to be going on there, who he is in that piece. I was definitely wasn’t along for the ride. That which is not understood is unloved.

As for Sato, there is no such thing as ‘quad blinders’. He landed Lz and Flip and he is not Ignatov to lack in everything else so blatantly as to puzzle the heck out of the panel, so on the balance, Sato’s program deservedly pushed ahead. Because technical difficulty must be recognized as much as some posters want it to be ignored and even persecuted. apart from opening Lutz, which indeed was beautiful and the only 4Lz in the event (I think) his GoEs were modest, and so were his PCSs.

Vasiliev was in the same bundle as Brown and on that day the judges decided that Brown was better than Vasiliev & Brown should qualify for the final. I disagreed on that with the judges. As much as I have preferred Vasiliev with bronze, however, I believe that Brown will always be over-scored, so there is just nothing for it. Plus, he skates to Schindler’s List, which has the same audience connection factor as Aliev’s waltzing. On the whole, everyone who ties with Brown will always lose. In this case it was Vasiliev.

 

[lariko]

Coach-hopping shade from Mark

There were either rumours or wishful thinking that Mozalev will be changing coaches, but by what he is saying in his pre-event interview he is more likely to want to coach himself in that same school he is at eventually.

 

[readernick]

I think the reason people generally ( although you will see a lot of complaints about Yuma's PCS on Twitter...Twitter is a scary place) accept Yuma's PCS is because in the more technical aspects of PCS .. Skating skills and transitions he is already truly incredible. I think Yuma needs to work on performance but that is a more of a subjective PCS category.

Nathan has always had quite good SS but there was a period when he has almost no transitions in his programs.

Vincent has improved but his SS in the past were very weak. This led to some fair criticism of the marks he received but he was improved an incredible amount now.

Most people are also just sick of trying to argue about a PCS scoring. Judges don't apply the bullet points as written for most skaters. At least men's PCS judging is better than women's PCS judging at the moment....

For the record, I think both Patrick Chan and Jason Brown generally deserve/deserved their PCS. Jason's programs at IDF weren't as good as they usually are but I still think he should still be first in PCS given his overall skating and performance quality. Patrick Chan's SS and transitions definitely deserved to be rewarded,too. On occasion, when he fell multiple times in a competition, I think the judges did give too high of PCS scores in performance and choreography but that wasn't generally the case and certainly not his fault.

Anyway, not everyone is going to appreciate the same skaters and that's ok.

I do agree with the final ranking of the skaters in this competition and I can't say the same about the women's discipline so imho the judging was correct!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

@lariko, you are spelling Deniss Vasiljevs' name inaccurately. Otherwise, thanks for sharing your opinions, some of which I am not completely in disagreement with. Still, the manipulation of PCS is a huge problem in the scoring. And we all have our faves and our subjective perceptions.

 

[lariko]

@lariko, you are spelling Deniss Vasiljevs' name inaccurately. Otherwise, thanks for sharing your opinions, some of which I am not completely in disagreement with. Still, the manipulation of PCS is a huge problem in the scoring. And we all have our faves and our subjective perceptions.

Sorry, didn’t realize he spelled it with j from the multitude of available choices.

PCSs and GoEs are used for grading on a curve for each event, and, yes, that’s a problem. I prefer watching juniors vs seniors because of that.

 

[dearskate]

Maybe it's because I don't watch them as much, but I always find that men always have the most bananas programs, even when compared to the women

They have much more interesting choreography than the women. The women just float about the place. There are no Yuzu, Jason, Deniss, Junhwan, Dimitri equivalents in the women.

 

[dearskate]

Ok, is it just me finding the audience screaming a little weird and distracting?

It's not just you!

 

[dearskate]

What do you mean post Hanyu era, I thought figure skating ended with Hanyu

I just can't imagine a post Hanyu era. It doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[dearskate]

No, depends on Semenenko's placement and/or scores.

I would so much rather have Jason than Semenenko

 

[dearskate]

I am glad to hear Shun might have a bit of an advantage, because I really liked him in JGP. I also really like Tomono… well, we’ll see how it would pan out.

Tomono is great. Would love to see him at the Olympics but not instead of Yuzu!!!!!!!