2021 Skate Canada: Men's Short Program

[florin]

Want some cheese to go with that whine? You sound like a sorehead Russian.

I don't understand you, but I don't care

 

[georgia]

Jason got a 5 for his triple flip? LOL

 

[florin]

Jason got a 5 for his triple flip? LOL

To be fair, this time it was more +4 than +5. And there was a daredevil judge who dared to give Brown's Magic Flip only +2 GOE

 

[ladyjane]

No, it's not. He get +2 for 4Lo and this is ridiculous for anyone who appreciates and understands FS (I'm not talking about fans of ice shows)

Well we'll disagree then. I was impressed by his 4Lo, and I've seen so many crunky ones which Makar's was not, that I think this was a good GOE score. Could have been better, sure, but still good compared to the scores of many others. Also, I don't like it to be seen as someone who doesn't understand and appreciate FS and be considered ridiculous because I refuse to just look at the jumps. I hope I am not alone in also very much appreciating the skating skills and spins of skaters as a part of it - it is Figure skating after all, not a jump contest. Which could be a new discipline of the sport. That's okay. Then Makar would be nr. 1 in the 4loops (for now). But Jason will still be the better allround skater. Who gives me chills. By the way, what's wrong with being a fan of ice shows?

 

[Mathman]

No, it's not. He get +2 for 4Lo and this is ridiculous for anyone who appreciates and understands FS (I'm not talking about fans of ice shows)

I think you are confused about the concept of base values versus GOEs. A 4 loop automatically carries a higher base value than a triple. GOEs are judged by different criteria.

 

[florin]

I think you are confused about the concept of base values versus GOEs. A 4 loop automatically carries a higher base value than a triple. GOEs are judged by different criteria.

I don't understand at all why you decided that. The only thing I'm confused about is what do you want exactly to tell me.

Here:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2122/gpcan2021/FSKMSINGLES-----------QUAL000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Makar has 2.25 GOE on his 4Lo. It's 21.43 % from base value of 4Lo (10.50). That is, the average intermediate GOE score that was given to him on this jump is 2.143. Perhaps translation difficulties prevent us from understanding each other. In Russia, we call these intermediate GOE scores "pluses". In such a situation, we say "Makar got 2.143 pluses". And you can see for yourself in the protocols that this is exactly the case - Makar has

2 0 3 2 2 2 2 3 2

 

[Mathman]

^ Actually, what I just said isn't exactly right. The base value is reflected in the formulas for GOE. That is why Makar got more points (2.25) for getting mostly 2's in GOE, while Jason gotonly 2.20 for while getting mostly 4's.

Edit: To Florin, yes that's right. The IJS rules do give higher total GOE points to more difficult elements, regardless of quality. So what is your complaint?

 

[florin]

^ Actually, what I just said isn't exactly right. The base value is reflected in the formulas for GOE. That is why Makar got more points (2.25) for getting mostly 2's in GOE, while Jason gotonly 2.20 for while getting mostly 4's.

I know.

Are you talking to yourself or to me? What exactly did you want to tell me? No, not like that. How exactly did you want to enlighten the confused me?

 

[florin]

Edit: To Florin, yes that's right. The IJS rules do give higher total GOE points to more difficult elements, regardless of quality. So what is your complaint?

Maybe you will first read what is written on the page? It's actually the middle of the night here and I want to sleep.

I said that if the judges judged not according to their internal "hierarchy of skaters", then Makar would not have the average 2 "plus"(+2 further), for his 4Lo, but +4

And I gave Brown's flip as an example of this "hierarchy of authorities". which gets +4 or +5 in any weather just for the very fact of the jump. I assure you, if a true miracle had happened - Brown would have jumped such a 4Lo as Makar did, then first of all all the judges gave birth at the same time, and then they would have given +5 without talking. But for this unknown dude Makar, +2 is enough.

That's it, I'm going to sleep.

P.S. Before you tell someone that he is "confused" - carefully study the situation around. Bye.

 

[mrrice]

Are there any videos up yet?

 

[figureskatingandrainbows]

After living life and finally being able to watch the last group of men, here are my (unasked for) thoughts

Zhenya Semenenko's spins have improved! His quads are still really forward though, I though the GOE on the opening 4T was a little generous. But that 3A was to die for. Still not a performer, but he did a nice job with the SS. I feel like Simon hypes him up a bit too much. He has loads of talent, but I don't think it's developed quite as much as other skaters his age. It's visible in his performance and skating skills compared to some of his peers.
Samarin was much more Russian man-y than Ignatov and Semenenko. I don't like the voiceovers, and a green tie with a leather vest is a choice. The jumps were rough, although the 4Lz was huge. The music cut was a little odd, but the program was quite good overall.
Morisi was again a hot mess. He deserves an Olympic gold in inconsistency. His 4T is something, and not in a good way. It really does look like a sal, and one day he's going to get dinged by a tech panel. The cartwheel was a +5, though.
Keegan, Keegan, Keegan! The shirt was a choice, but he has such good skating skills and knees! This program fits him like a glove, and he really sold the program the entire way through. It's hard not to fall in love with him and his split jump into his 3Lz, as demonstrated by the crowd's standing o. And his k&c was so cute!
JASON F-ING BROWN. I have no words. Stunning, stunning, gorgeous. He was on fire. Every time I watch this program, I notice something new. His step sequence is proof that heaven really is a place on earth. There is not enough PCS in this world for him.
Nathan was either going to be on fire tonight or a hot mess, and he was (almost) on fire. He was very tight before the 4Lz, and it was a little shaky, but after that he relaxed a lot. There is a lot of two foot skating in this program, and his spins also looked a little rusty. I'm not a fan of the music cut, but he skated the step sequence super well and seemed more, idk, himself? It was really nice to see the classic intense Nathan expression again. His PCS was a little high, I would've given him a 45 especially comparing him to Jason Brown, but so much better than SkAm. I could become a fan of this program, although I wish he had a more upbeat program and a more sombre one. Both his programs feel rather heavy this year.

 

[SaDa]

I must be the only person in the world who doesn't care for Jason's style of skating...but I just don't care for it. It's so chaotic and not cohesive to me. His skating has more transitions..yes...but more isn't always better. And Sinnerman...I can't get into it. It's a lot of strange poses and random transitions to me. He skated clean though so I'm happy for him, and I always cheer for my fellow Americans.

I'm glad Nathan was able to get back on track to skating like the Nathan we're used to seeing. One can tell he's still working on the 4Lz but I was happy to see him standing on his feet. I'd like to see more attack and energy during the StSq though since it's absolutely the best part of the entire program. He was too cautious. Still not very comfortable with it, it seems. If he insists on this program then I'm sure it would get the job done too, but I wouldn't mind one bit if he decides to bring Nemesis back in its entirety.

 

[Jontor]

But the GOE is not based on what other jumps there are - it is based on how well you do THAT jump (or spin, or step sequence, etc) and Jason does what he does flawlessly. So he deserves the GOE he gets added to the base value of the jump he chose to do.

Yes, Jason's 3Flip was flawless, and so was also Makar's 4Loop.
And as the GOE is a percentage of BV Makar got more GOE points out of his quad than Jason did from his triple.
But the poster I was responding to was saying that Jason is a better jumper than Makar, which is not the case.
I can do flawless single jumps, but I admit that I am not as good a jumper as Makar OR Jason is.

 

[el henry]

I must be the only person in the world who doesn't care for Jason's style of skating...but I just don't care for it. It's so chaotic and not cohesive to me. His skating has more transitions..yes...but more isn't always better. And Sinnerman...I can't get into it. It's a lot of strange poses and random transitions to me. He skated clean though so I'm happy for him, and I always cheer for my fellow Americans.

I'm glad Nathan was able to get back on track to skating like the Nathan we're used to seeing. One can tell he's still working on the 4Lz but I was happy to see him standing on his feet. I'd like to see more attack and energy during the StSq though since it's absolutely the best part of the entire program. He was too cautious. Still not very comfortable with it, it seems. If he insists on this program then I'm sure it would get the job done too, but I wouldn't mind one bit if he decides to bring Nemesis back in its entirety.

I certainly don't think we all need to love the same skaters (the world would be a boring place if we did)

But the movements in Jason's Sinnerman SP are meant to be patterned after the Alvin Ailey Dance Company and the "Horton Technique" (obviously not 100%, but no skate can be 100% dance). I don't know if you will like it any better, but it might give more context.

Alvin Ailey dancers perform Sinnerman, from Revelations:

 

[rain]

I haven't had time to watch the whole thing yet, but ahhhh, Roman, you are determined to break my heart! He and Nam seem determined to make it as difficult as possible for Skate Canada to decide who to send to the Olympics. I think Keegan just continues to solidify his spot. Come on Roman, you can do better than this! I shouldn't be too surprised though; he typically has a slow start to the season.

 

[anonymoose_au]

And Sinnerman...I can't get into it. It's a lot of strange poses and random transitions to me.

It's interesting because I generally don't go for that type of dancing myself, but there's something really compelling about Jason doing it. As I said he's slinky and he seems to kind of flow to the voice of Nina Simone. Like the style would look really weird with another kind of music, but it works here

I really loved Nathan too though although his style was completely different, sharp and at the same time laid back if that makes sense? The vocals of Nemesis remind me of sharp edges and Nathan really brought that out.

It's fun watching different skaters and styles That's why I'm often confused as to why people say "It's not figure skating" regarding someone. Like unless they're flopping across the ice on their stomachs it's all figure skating

 

[SaDa]

But the movements in Jason's Sinnerman SP are meant to be patterned after the Alvin Ailey Dance Company and the "Horton Technique" (obviously not 100%, but no skate can be 100% dance). I don't know if you will like it any better, but it might give more context.

Thanks for trying to give me more context into Jason's skating. Appreciate it very much.
It obviously takes a lot of talent to be able to do something like this. Unfortunately, it just isn't my cup of tea, and you're right that the Alvin Ailey dancers didn't exactly help, talented as they are. My biggest issue with Jason's skating is that I always feel like his skating lacks cohesion or a theme. It tends to be a lot of random transitions tossed together, sort of like...er...a colorful salad bowl, maybe? Like you said though, it's different for everyone.

 

[Tonichelle]

Ooh that is so cute, he is so proud of his baby

The haaaaat!

Awww the family!!

We all know that he was trying to bribe the judges with baby pictures

 

[Lutzedge]

We all know that he was trying to bribe the judges with baby pictures

I guess it worked! He should have got some bonus points for that.

 

[Mathman]

P.S. Before you tell someone that he is "confused" - carefully study the situation around. Bye.

This is what I think. It is fruitless to argue about Jason Brown. Some people like his beautiful skating. Others think that his lack of a quad should eleminate him from medal contention. No matter how many times or in how many weays the two sides state their position, there is is.

Anyway, the point at which I felt there might be some confusion was when you pretended not to understand why one skater got +2s and another got +4s.