2022-23 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Alex Fedorov]

Well to be fair the last quad was probably the most dominant time for Russian ladies and Covid claimed 2 finals, last year 5 of 6 ladies qualifiers were Russian ladies.

if Alexandra Trusova had not been injured, it would have been 6 out of 6, a small Russian championship. This could be a true Grand Prix final. And the current tournament should be considered as a consolation final. And if you take this into account, the results immediately begin to look not so bad. Not a bad score for outsiders.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

if Alexandra Trusova had not been injured, it would have been 6 out of 6, a small Russian championship. This could be a true Grand Prix final. And the current tournament should be considered as a consolation final. And if you take this into account, the results immediately begin to look not so bad. Not a bad score for outsiders.

And once again, it's all about the ifs.

If Rika hadn't been injured she would have made the GPF over Alena and Maiia, if Dasha hadn't been injured she would have made the GPF instead of Alena, if Peng/Jin had been able to get visas for France, they would have made the GPF, if Yuzuru had been healthy, he would have made the GPF, if Mai had been assigned to other GP events she could have gone to the GPF, etc...
Wouldn't have helped anyone, as the GPF was going to be canceled no matter who qualified, but the fact is, in the end it doesn't really matter what would have, could have, should have, it didn't happen.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

So, just so I’m up to date, is this the part of the program where we pretend the rest of the world are a match for the Russian ladies?

Which of the Russian ladies are we talking about?

Let's take the top 10 highest scorers on the Russian GP circuit, who are also internationally senior-eligible:

• Kamila Valieva - Has restored 4T and 3A (still to land in a program in competition this season) - Would she be able to compete internationally, or would she receive a temporary suspension until the court case has been closed like the Spanish pair?
• Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Consistent 3A, issues with 3-3s
• Adeliia Petrosian - 3A, 4T, 4Lo in competition; 4S, 4F in training - Injury forced her to withdraw from her second GP event
• Sofia Muravieva - Consistent 3A, 4S in training - Recovery from leg injury
• Sofia Samodelkina' - 4S, 3A, 3Lz+3Lo; 4T, 4Lz in past seasons; 4F, 4Lo in training; underrotation & consistency issues
• Alexandra Trusova - 4Lz; 3A in training, 4T, 4S, 4F, 4Lz in past seasons; struggled with 3-3s and 4Lz during this season, recovery from injuries, focus on technical elements
• Veronika Yametova* - Ultra-C elements in training?, well-rounded skater
• Ksenia Sinitsina' - 4T (and 3A) in training, prone to underrotations, artistic skater
• Anastasia Zinina - Inconsistent 4T, 3A in training, prone to underrotations
• Ksenia Gushchina* - triples and 3-3s, no ultra-Cs, somewhat inconsistent during the Russian GP series

' Skaters outside of the top 24 in World standing or Season's best
* Skaters, who would not have been able to be selected for non-host spots at the beginning of the season due to no previous international starts

How many of these skaters were really out of the reach of the non-Russian skaters this season? I'd say maybe the first four listed here (Kami, Liza, Adeliia, Mura). I would not be so sure about the rest. They probably would have been in the mix and could have beaten a number of international skaters, but they would have been nowhere near being guaranteed a clear win.

I deliberately chose to exclude those that did not skate this season, as it's difficult to say in which condition they would have been during the time range the GP took place in. Daria, Maiia and Alena were injured before the GP and did not recover in time or needed "semi-emergency" surgery, with only Anna being a real question mark. If she had known she'd be able to compete this season, she might have chosen to have her surgery at a different time or would have had a different recovery plan, making her able of attending the GP circuit, but that's not how it played out, so we have no way of knowing.

 

[yume]

Surely all of them can perform better than what we saw this weekend. But to me it looked as if they even did not aspire for it. The motivation is lacking, and not just now, the whole GP was very subpar. To make it relevant to this topic, IMO the absence of russian women took the high aspirations of the others away.

Generally, when there is someone extraordinary in a starting field in any sport, it can motivate the others, when they see what is possible. Now, not. Yes, some may object that it can actually demotivate (like "oh, this and this will medal, why to even try), but I disagree. Sport is and always was about challenge and inspiration.

It's true that some competitors can make other skaters want to get their shit together. I'm far from being a Medvedeva's fan, very far from it, but i think that her presence made the ladies field more consistent. In the sense that clean programs, especially the FP, were more common. Everyone worked more to be more consistent. Even usual cacti were less cacti. Probably because they saw that consistency was bringing her PCS as high as the Kilimandjaro.

On the contrary, when no one is bringing something challenging, things can get too easy and there is no effort to do more. 2011-2012 was just so weak while the 2012-2013 was stronger because Yuna came back and Mao had more solid jumps and was successful with 3A again.

Well to be fair the last quad was probably the most dominant time for Russian ladies and Covid claimed 2 finals, last year 5 of 6 ladies qualifiers were Russian ladies.

Still sad for 2021 GPF and 2020 worlds. Some definitely deserved those opportunities.
I don't see who would have stopped a sweep in 2021. Sakamoto has a good luck but having 3 russians bombing that bad isn't easy.

 

[alexocfp]

Which of the Russian ladies are we talking about?

Let's take the top 10 highest scorers on the Russian GP circuit, who are also internationally senior-eligible:

• Kamila Valieva - Has restored 4T and 3A (still to land in a program in competition this season) - Would she be able to compete internationally, or would she receive a temporary suspension until the court case has been closed like the Spanish pair?
• Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Consistent 3A, issues with 3-3s
• Adeliia Petrosian - 3A, 4T, 4Lo in competition; 4S, 4F in training - Injury forced her to withdraw from her second GP event
• Sofia Muravieva - Consistent 3A, 4S in training - Recovery from leg injury
• Sofia Samodelkina' - 4S, 3A, 3Lz+3Lo; 4T, 4Lz in past seasons; 4F, 4Lo in training; underrotation & consistency issues
• Alexandra Trusova - 4Lz; 3A in training, 4T, 4S, 4F, 4Lz in past seasons; struggled with 3-3s and 4Lz during this season, recovery from injuries, focus on technical elements
• Veronika Yametova* - Ultra-C elements in training?, well-rounded skater
• Ksenia Sinitsina' - 4T (and 3A) in training, prone to underrotations, artistic skater
• Anastasia Zinina - Inconsistent 4T, 3A in training, prone to underrotations
• Ksenia Gushchina* - triples and 3-3s, no ultra-Cs, somewhat inconsistent during the Russian GP series

' Skaters outside of the top 24 in World standing or Season's best
* Skaters, who would not have been able to be selected for non-host spots at the beginning of the season due to no previous international starts

How many of these skaters were really out of the reach of the non-Russian skaters this season? I'd say maybe the first four listed here (Kami, Liza, Adeliia, Mura). I would not be so sure about the rest. They probably would have been in the mix and could have beaten a number of international skaters, but they would have been nowhere near being guaranteed a clear win.

I deliberately chose to exclude those that did not skate this season, as it's difficult to say in which condition they would have been during the time range the GP took place in. Daria, Maiia and Alena were injured before the GP and did not recover in time or needed "semi-emergency" surgery, with only Anna being a real question mark. If she had known she'd be able to compete this season, she might have chosen to have her surgery at a different time or would have had a different recovery plan, making her able of attending the GP circuit, but that's not how it played out, so we have no way of knowing.

Hope dies last it seems.

Notice the biggest factor on your list is injuries. Injuries are a bigger threat to the Russian ladies than anyone outside the borders. And quotas are a close second, maybe 1A. Savage competition is also on this list.

And also notice, how much depth the Russian girls have. You easily got to 15 people that can challenge the rest of the world. Care to do this point by point analysis for any other nation? I am dying to see the 15th ranked skater in any other country and how they compare to the Moscow city champion. Or even the Perm champion.

Even using your worst case scenarios, a potential bronze is the best case scenario.

These are the same exact things we were being told the last few years of the quad era, but when push came to shove, the results were what they were. Mostly one way traffic.

For reference, I like to go reread the posts in the “who can defeat the Russian ladies” thread.

So much wide eyed optimism at the start, and then the hammer fell and so did the optimism.

Optimism was replaced by binoculars, since those were needed to be able to see Kamila’s scores since they were so far ahead.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Hope dies last it seems.

Notice the biggest factor on your list is injuries. Injuries are a bigger threat to the Russian ladies than anyone outside the borders. And quotas are a close second, maybe 1A. Savage competition is also on this list.

And also notice, how much depth the Russian girls have. You easily got to 15 people that can challenge the rest of the world. Care to do this point by point analysis for any other nation? I am dying to see the 15th ranked skater in any other country and how they compare to the Moscow city champion. Or even the Perm champion.

Even using your worst case scenarios, a potential bronze is the best case scenario.

These are the same exact things we were being told the last few years of the quad era, but when push came to shove, the results were what they were. Mostly one way traffic.

For reference, I like to go reread the posts in the “who can defeat the Russian ladies” thread.

So much wide eyed optimism at the start, and then the hammer fell and so did the optimism.

Optimism was replaced by binoculars, since those were needed to be able to see Kamila’s scores since they were so far ahead.

You're talking so much about depth in Russian skating and how no other country can compare - Ok, let's do a direct comparison of Korean, Japanese and Russian Senior Nationals last season. Keep in mind, all three countries allow some juniors to take part in their respective nationals.

15th place:

• Japanese nationals: Ibuki Sato, 21 - 171.86

SP: 3Lo+3T, 3F, 2A (BV: 31.33)​

FS: 2A+3T, 3Lo, 3F<, 3S+2T, 3T, 2A+2T+2Lo, 3Sq (BV: 54.42)​

• Korean nationals: Siwoo Song, 14 - 158.28

SP: 3Lz+3T<, 2A, 3F (BV: 30.56)​

FS: 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3F+2Lo, 3Lo+2T, 2A, 3Lz, 3Lo, 2A (BV: 56.61)​

• Russian nationals: Ksenia Gushchina, 14 - 171.62

SP: 2A, 3Lz+3T<, 3Fq (BV: 29.19)​

FS: 2A, 3Lz+3T<, 3F, 2A, 3Lz+1Eu<<+3S, 3F+2T, 3Lo (BV: 59.73)​

​

So, yes, Russia has impressive depth - Much deeper than Korea, not to even speak of the US, which ended up not even having 15 women competing at nationals (Ok, two skaters withdrew after the Short, but that's not making much of a difference). But Japan? Japan has decently comparable depth, even if the peak is not as high as that of Russian women's skating.​

 

[Lurker11]

You're talking so much about depth in Russian skating and how no other country can compare - Ok, let's do a direct comparison of Korean, Japanese and Russian Senior Nationals last season. Keep in mind, all three countries allow some juniors to take part in their respective nationals.

15th place:

• Japanese nationals: Ibuki Sato, 21 - 171.86

SP: 3Lo+3T, 3F, 2A (BV: 31.33)​

FS: 2A+3T, 3Lo, 3F<, 3S+2T, 3T, 2A+2T+2Lo, 3Sq (BV: 54.42)​

• Korean nationals: Siwoo Song, 14 - 158.28

SP: 3Lz+3T<, 2A, 3F (BV: 30.56)​

FS: 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3F+2Lo, 3Lo+2T, 2A, 3Lz, 3Lo, 2A (BV: 56.61)​

• Russian nationals: Ksenia Gushchina, 14 - 171.62

SP: 2A, 3Lz+3T<, 3Fq (BV: 29.19)​

FS: 2A, 3Lz+3T<, 3F, 2A, 3Lz+1Eu<<+3S, 3F+2T, 3Lo (BV: 59.73)​

​

So, yes, Russia has impressive depth - Much deeper than Korea, not to even speak of the US, which ended up not even having 15 women competing at nationals (Ok, two skaters withdrew after the Short, but that's not making much of a difference). But Japan? Japan has decently comparable depth, even if the peak is not as high as that of Russian women's skating.​

Wouldn't the 15th best Russian skater have transferred to another federation at some point, while we don't see Japanese and Koreans transferring with regularity.

 

[Lurker11]

Would there be anything wrong with the Russian federation naming their female Russian champion in a couple weeks time the world champion since she will be the undisputed best female skater on the planet?

To me this is no different to a US basketball club being named world champion (even though there is a world cup for basketball), so a precedent has been long established for this convention in US sports.

 

[DoubleBass]

Would there be anything wrong with the Russian federation naming their female Russian champion in a couple weeks time the world champion since she will be the undisputed best female skater on the planet?

To me this is no different to a US basketball club being named world champion (even though there is a world cup for basketball), so a precedent has been long established for this convention in US sports.

I don't think that would be a good idea. It's best to be humble and let the actions speak louder than words, imo.

I'd honestly like Russia create an alternative to the ISU, a league based on individual skaters (eventually from any country) instead of country quotas, it's the only way to truly nurture the depth of the Russian ladies field, because 3 quotas per country is a joke. In this sense it would not be a competitor to the ISU, I can see it in time becoming more prestigious and desirable with the right funding and smart organization. Especially the jumping championship, it can be a huge show attracting big crowds and good money, the potential for this kind of thriller, if done right, is nearly unlimited.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Wouldn't the 15th best Russian skater have transferred to another federation at some point, while we don't see Japanese and Koreans transferring with regularity.

I think there are more reasons than depth in a discipline for skaters to change federations. Especially if I think of the many small fed skaters who have switched federations to other small feds, like Nicola Todeschini (Switzerland to Netherlands), Dora Hus (Germany to Croatia) and Julia Sauter (Germany to Romania).

One of the reasons I think Russians switch countries more often than many other federation's skaters is the historical context of Russia as a country. Many Russian nationals have non-Russian ancestry, with Germany, Israel and former Soviet states being pretty common. That allows skaters to gain citizenship more easily, in some cases even without having to relocate and having to give up their training situation in Russia. And of course, with many Russian skaters being located in Moscow, a number of countries are (under normal circumstances) easy to reach with short flights. This is not really the case for Japanese skaters, most of them don't have any significant non-Japanese ancestry and would have to leave Japan, often for countries that are many flight hours away, with very different cultural practices to boot.

Also, I think what's more extreme in Russia is the gap between the Worlds/Olympic team and the "bulk" of the Russian skaters. At last year's Russian nationals, Anna would score 67.94 points in excess of Ksenia Gushchina's score in 15th place, while Mana (3rd at Japanese nationals) would only beat Ibuki Sato (15th) by 37.79 points. I would assume this large of a gap (almost 70 points!) would encourage more skaters to switch, as they felt like they had no chance of ever even making it close to the skaters who receive international assignments.

Lastly, I think skating culture is different in Japan. Most skating rinks and coaches in Russia seem to be more focused on elite skating, while Japan has for example a well-developed college-skating program outside of elite skating. Skaters stay in skating for longer, but their goals are not as focussed on international success as that of many Russian skaters, so they see no reason to change to a different country. They're more content with the money and medals they can get with College, regional competitions and professional ice shows, and the occasional Nationals qualification, with the focus for success being more on academics instead of skating.

 

[gsk8]

The international ladies in seniors imploded under a weak amount of pressure all at once with only basic triple jumps---only Rinka here had a right to fall on her 3A because it is a truly difficult element for ladies and even some men struggle to land it. None of the ladies here even attempted a 3A other than her so claps to Rinka.

Already 5 of the 6 ladies fail in comparison to top Russians in terms of content.

Moving on to the next medalist compared to our girls....

The ISU ladies are consistently inconsistent this season on the most basic and simple of jumps (singles included). This level is not a norm for our top ladies. They are not comparable.

The Russian Women's forum is not a place to "compare" or "put down" other skaters. It is for discussion of Russian women only. There were no Russian women in the GPF.

Feel free to create a new thread in the Edge, if you wish, to discuss how you feel about the "state of the GPF women."

 

[alexocfp]

I don't think that would be a good idea. It's best to be humble and let the actions speak louder than words, imo.

I'd honestly like Russia create an alternative to the ISU, a league based on individual skaters (eventually from any country) instead of country quotas, it's the only way to truly nurture the depth of the Russian ladies field, because 3 quotas per country is a joke. In this sense it would not be a competitor to the ISU, I can see it in time becoming more prestigious and desirable with the right funding and smart organization. Especially the jumping championship, it can be a huge show attracting big crowds and good money, the potential for this kind of thriller, if done right, is nearly unlimited.

I agree. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Do the talking on the ice.

Besides, the main contenders for the championship are all soft spoken and not prone to bragging. They are quiet killers.

Obviously, Russia creating an alternative to the ISU is a dream. They are better at hype, promotion. TV production, and of course have the better on ice product.

 

[alexocfp]

I know for sure though, if this was a Russian skater with this kind of drop off in 9 months, critics would go straight to the most sinister explanation for this stunning form reversal.

 

[uwoawuwoa]

The Russian Women's forum is not a place to "compare" or "put down" other skaters. It is for discussion of Russian women only. There were no Russian women in the GPF.

Feel free to create a new thread in the Edge, if you wish, to discuss how you feel about the "state of the GPF women."

I would say fair point, but is this not a double standard?
gsk8 you highlight my post regarding "comparisons" that favor Russian ladies yet completely ignore "Jumping Bean" who has multiple comparisons with Japanese and south korean skaters that favors international?
Is this favoritism or something? Wow....

 

[Lurker11]

I would say fair point, but is this not a double standard?
gsk8 you highlight my post regarding "comparisons" that favor Russian ladies yet completely ignore "Jumping Bean" who has multiple comparisons with Japanese and south korean skaters that favors international?
Is this favoritism or something? Wow....

Did you at least save that post?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I would say fair point, but is this not a double standard?
gsk8 you highlight my post regarding "comparisons" that favor Russian ladies yet completely ignore "Jumping Bean" who has multiple comparisons with Japanese and south korean skaters that favors international?
Is this favoritism or something? Wow....

Apart from the fact that some of my posts were indeed removed, and the fact that most of my posts were not comparisons of Russian and non-Russian skaters (eventhough they still don't fit in this thread, I can admit that, but I was responding to a post in this thread after all), much less an in-depth analysis or comparison of either group of skaters, I want to emphasise that I don't favour international skaters.

In fact, if you read my posts, you'll see that many are favourable towards Russian women's skating or at most put it on equal footing to Japanese women's skating/international women's skating in some aspects (I only really talked about Korean or US skaters once, and they did not come away looking favourable).

My goal is not to put down or glorify either group of skaters, Russian or non-Russian, but to stress that while the top Russians certainly have an advantage, most Russian skaters are comparable in many ways to skaters of other countries and would not be immediately guaranteed a win if they competed internationally, an opinion that was expressed in this thread, which is why this whole discussion unfortunately took place here.

 

[gsk8]

I would say fair point, but is this not a double standard?
gsk8 you highlight my post regarding "comparisons" that favor Russian ladies yet completely ignore "Jumping Bean" who has multiple comparisons with Japanese and south korean skaters that favors international?
Is this favoritism or something? Wow....

The staff does not have time to "police" every single thread - only the ones we get "report tickets" on.

When reviewing, the team also looks at "context" and "tone."

ALL posts that responded to your post that was removed, were also removed.

The Russian Women's thread is to discuss how Russian Women are doing, their training, coaching changes, technical topics, injuries, etc. Obviously there may come a time when another skater might need to be brought up intermittently, but this post belonged in a thread of it's own.

 

[brakes]

Why is Veronika Yametova participating in her regional championships in junior category???

 

[AlexBreeze]

Training in China

 

[Lurker11]

Shcherbakova of course deserves to be nominated for an ISU award. Obvious choice to select the gold medallist of the Olympics.

But I'm a little disappointed that Valieva missed out for her record breaking performances at Skate Canada and the Rostelecom Cup. I don't think we'll see that level of skating from anyone ever again, so I'm a little mystified as to how she missed out. She doesn't have to be selected for the award of course, I thought it would be enough for a nomination .

Tutberitze was overlooked as well despite incredible unprecedented results at Europeans and the Olympic Games .

Oh well.