2022-23 US Pairs Figure Skating

[skylark]

I have a Christmas Card for Danny O’Shea - hey, it’s fashionably late - I think everyone is this year - and I’m trying to figure out exactly where people who train in Colorado actually train - Broadmoor World Arena?

that sounds right, but I actually have no clue

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ @moonvine, Maybe there are clues on Danny's Instagram, or on U.S. figure skating fan zone. Isn't there someone in-the-know who you can ask?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I guess, in a nutshell, I'm happy for Danny but think the management of pairs in the US blatantly S&*#*

The management of figure skating as a whole, domestically and internationally, is extremely poor.

The competitive structure as well as the huge expenses involved in the sport contribute to limiting participation.

Clearly, Danny is highly skilled and experienced. For the U.S. pairs discipline to remain strong and vital, U.S. fed needs Danny with a good partner to remain competitive, and and viable.

 

[Weathergal]

I have a Christmas Card for Danny O’Shea - hey, it’s fashionably late - I think everyone is this year - and I’m trying to figure out exactly where people who train in Colorado actually train - Broadmoor World Arena?

Or the U.S. Olympic Training Center -- or is that one and the same?

 

[moonvine]

^^ @moonvine, Maybe there are clues on Danny's Instagram, or on U.S. figure skating fan zone. Isn't there someone in-the-know who you can ask?

That person gave me her home address to mail a card to but yes I can ask about Danny

 

[moonvine]

Or the U.S. Olympic Training Center -- or is that one and the same?

I have no idea. Like Gracie is IceWorks, Jimmy is SCOB, I never thought this would be complicated

 

[moonvine]

The management of figure skating as a whole, domestically and internationally, is extremely poor.

The competitive structure as well as the huge expenses involved in the sport contribute to limiting participation.

Clearly, Danny is highly skilled and experienced. For the U.S. pairs discipline to remain strong and vital, U.S. fed needs Danny with a good partner to remain competitive, and and viable.

AND they’re (Danny and Ellie) clearly a good pair. It’s not usual for pairs to win their first International comp. Which was I believe their first comp ever.

I liked Danny with Chelsea but Danny and Ellie are getting better results, though I’m not sure it’s fair to compare them that way, since Danny and Chelsea’s first comp was Cranberry (I think) and the level of competition was higher.

 

[2sk8]

The management of figure skating as a whole, domestically and internationally, is extremely poor.

The competitive structure as well as the huge expenses involved in the sport contribute to limiting participation.

Clearly, Danny is highly skilled and experienced. For the U.S. pairs discipline to remain strong and vital, U.S. fed needs Danny with a good partner to remain competitive, and and viable.

I'm a bit baffled why one sentence of a long post of mine from nearly two months ago was quoted here, and it is certainly taken out of context this way. The last sentence of your recent post here though is kind of the circular approach that I do think is a big problem in encouraging more skaters to continue in pairs because in practice it goes something like this, "skater x has been good in the past, so we will adjust the policies for skater x with new partners, without skater x and new partner competing equally against other teams, and give skater x and the new partners international competitive opportunities that allow them to obtain minimum scores and compete in other international events, while other skaters and teams - new or not - are required to qualify under the actual rules and policies."

It may or may not be true that skater x and new partner a or b are better, more consistent or whatever than those other teams or potential teams. Maybe those other teams would become even BETTER given equal opportunities. We don't know and never will know because they aren't competing on the same playing field. Subjectivity in judging this sport is bad enough without adding another layer of, dare I say, favoritism or special accomodation.

To paraphrase the comment of another young US team this year, each international competitive opportunity is like months of training - experience and exposure that can't be gotten any other way. When you are making adjustments to the policies in the "background", other skaters KNOW they don't have the same opportunity to get assignments and gain that type of exposure and experience- and they choose not to continue. That is real, not hypothetical.

Obviously, USFS agrees with you that Danny is so extraordinary that making arrangements for him outweighs the potential of numerous other teams. And, that is their prerogative. However, I think that approach for any "skater x" is in inherent conflict with calls for development and increased depth in US pairs - you can't claim you want that, then emphasize a structure that doesn't provide equal competition and opportunity in what is supposed to be a Sport.

So, apologies for the long post to put my original thought back in the context that was removed from this quote, but I'll repeat - happy for Danny, don't agree it's the best approach for the long term development of greater depth in US pairs.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Hmmm, I know that I don't have all the answers. If you are someone who believes you do, then go forward to advocate for a fairer system that you think is better. But have it all worked out before presenting it to U.S. figure skating. That's a tall task.

Understanding the history of this sport and how it developed might be helpful. The current problems didn't spring up overnight. From the very chaotic, disorganized and leisure rich beginnings, this sport has been niche, expensive, prejudicial, political, snobby, exciting, old-fashioned, poorly organized, badly managed, factional, conflicting, and always, always unfair. There's a whole lotta work to do on a number of levels beginning with better communication between federations and their athletes, between fans, federations, and governing body, etc. Being tied at the hip with speed skating, a completely different sport, is hugely problematic. I doubt that will change anytime soon, if ever.

So meanwhile, your complaint obviously is valid. It's just that in the current environment, the competitive structure is what it is. Offer better solutions. As it stands now, there needs to be better opportunities to develop, which means the chance to compete. Athletes can't improve if they can't compete. So I get your feeling that it's unfair for a new partnership to trump existing partnerships.

Still, the bottom line is: Danny O'Shea, whether or not you think it's fair, doesn't have to start at the bottom. It's not just about him having a recognized name. He's got huge talent as a top-level pairs athlete, and proven championship experience. Plus, Ellie Kam, fortunately, is a skilled young pairs lady who matches well with Danny physically. And even though Ellie is still learning, she can already skate up to his level of ability. They wouldn't be winning international medals already if they weren't highly competitive. Honestly, the U.S. pairs discipline, and Danny's many fans, are extremely lucky that he is interested in sticking around competitively!

Which other teams specifically do you feel have been unfairly treated because of Danny and Ellie being favored for international assignments?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

happy for Danny, don't agree it's the best approach for the long term development of greater depth in US pairs.

That's great you're happy for Danny. I'm happy for Danny too, and for Ellie as well.

To be honest, the point is, the U.S. discipline needs top, competitive talent in order to try and hold on to three spots for Worlds. The eligibility requirements for Worlds are antiquated. However, under this current system, in order to develop and maintain long term competitive growth, the U.S. needs to be able to send three teams to Worlds. That's the bottom line. That's why Knierim/ Frazier were asked to continue for at least another year. They are sorely needed to give the U.S. discipline an opportunity to hold onto 3 spots. Danny & Ellie also help provide back-up insurance.

So, long-term development is a concern that needs to be worked on with vigorous energy and vision, and a well thought out set of strategies and programs. At the same time, on the competitive side, the way the sport is currently structured makes it crucial to send highly talented and experienced teams to Worlds, so that three spots can provide U.S. fed with more flexibility to give up-and-coming teams the competitive assignments they need in order to further grow.

Of course, that doesn't mean U.S. fed always makes the best decisions with the talent they have. Yes, a lot needs to be done to work toward fairness. But, I do not see favoring Danny and his new partner, Ellie, as being unfair. I believe there are some good teams up-and-coming who need chances to grow. But looking at it with unsparing honesty, Danny & Ellie are needed to help with growth for other teams.

In fact, for at least 3 to 5 years, the U.S. has had top level pairs talent and great depth. But momentum for uber-talented teams like Calalang/ Johnson, as well as development opportunities for up-and-coming teams was hampered and limited. Despite having, in recent years, 4 U.S. teams in the top 15 World Standings for pairs, and 3 teams in the top ten, the U.S. unfairly only had two spots for Worlds for far too long. It was close at 2021 Worlds for pulling out a third sorely needed spot, but it didn't happen. Thus C/J missed out on the Olympics, and they missed out on going to Worlds as well, three years in a row! In large part, of course, this was due to bad luck, coupled with a broken, unfair system. I can't blame Brian Johnson for wanting to retire. Jessica Calalang apparently wanted to continue, but it would have been practically impossible to find a partner even near the amazing and magical match she had in Brian.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I liked Danny with Chelsea but Danny and Ellie are getting better results, though I’m not sure it’s fair to compare them

Right. It's like apples and oranges. Chelsea and Danny were lovely together, and closer in age. Chelsea's long, elegant legs allowed them to do interesting things with their choreography. At the same time, Ellie's smaller size physically provides a different set of choreographic and athletic opportunities. I also think Ellie may be a more skilled jumper. At least, that appears to be the case so far.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

other skaters KNOW they don't have the same opportunity to get assignments and gain that type of exposure and experience- and they choose not to continue.

There are a variety of reasons why skaters leave the sport. Limited opportunities and unfairness in the competitive structure is surely a big part of it. But the reasons are numerous and complex. Part of making it to the top is about luck along with financial and political support, not just talent level.

For example, Danny & Tarah were lucky to make it as far as they did. While they looked good together, Danny's athleticism and skating skills were always better than Tarah's. OTOH Tarah had dramatic flair, desire and determination. They were able to camouflage weaknesses for awhile, until they peaked, and their lack of speed together became very obvious. As world class and magical a team as Calalang/ Johnson were, they sadly ran into a sh#!storm of bad luck. For lower level, up-and-coming teams, simply managing to stay together is more than half the battle.

Obviously, USFS agrees with you that Danny is so extraordinary that making arrangements for him outweighs the potential of numerous other teams.

But this is not true. It's not about "making arrangements for Danny." It's about ensuring that the U.S. discipline can send the most highly competitive teams to Worlds, in order to maintain three spots for next year. As I said earlier, the U. S. discipline and Danny's fans are lucky that he's still excited and enthusiastic about continuing to compete. And that he's physically able to do so, as well.

It's very similar to Skate Canada knowing they needed to rebuild their pairs discipline, and recognizing that the top two teams who remained standing were not a lock to ensure three spots. That's a huge reason why they actively supported and encouraged the challenging Olympic season new partnership of James/ Radford. They were proven champions, but being new to each other made trying to make it in one season extremely hard. Yet they kept working hard and believing, and they were on the podium at Worlds, which was Skate Canada's goal, so mission accomplished.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

In recent months, the rebuilding process for Canadian pairs is finally on more solid footing with Stellato-Dudek/ Deschamps; Pereira/ Michaud; McIntosh/ Mimar; and Proft/ Nadeau.

For the U.S., I would imagine Knierim/Frazier; Chan/ Howe; Smirnova/ Siianytsia; and Kam/ O'Shea will battle for the top three spots. Chan/ Howe have been dealing with ankle and shoulder issues recently, so hopefully they will be at good strength by Nationals.

Among other up-and-coming teams, (including Plazas/ Fernandez; Mokhova/ Mokhov; Hanns/ Neudecker), I am crossing my fingers for Digerness/ Sadusky,* who have been included via petition (they have had promising results, but were unable to compete at qualifying comp due to injury). Since Nica has been on the comeback road after a long rehab, I hope the recent setback can be overcome, so that she and Mark can compete at full strength in January.

ETA:
Also, I believe Baram/ Tioumentsev who competed in juniors internationally (winning silver at JGPF), will be competing in seniors domestically. They will surely be sent to junior Worlds. This is Daniel's final season of junior eligibility. Due to recent age eligibility changes, Sonia can't compete in seniors internationally for at least 2 more seasons. So, I wonder how they are going to handle these restrictions. I hope they stay together.

ETA:
* https://amsterdamnews.com/news/2022/12/29/new-pairs-team-prepares-for-u-s-championships-debut/

Article in a local New York paper regarding the Nica/ Mark pairing, with info on Nica's injury. The article also discusses how Nica/Mark teamed up in pairs for the U.S. I guess we wouldn't get this feature on fanzone, unless it's excerpted from there?

 

[2sk8]

@BlissfulSynergy Oh my goodness, you certainly did have a lot of thoughts on my old post I don't actually think we disagree on that much though. While I appreciate the history lesson, please know that I have a lot of years in and understanding of how the Sport operates, including on an international level, so my opinions aren't simply those of a recent fan. We don't have to agree on everything, but my opinion is well-considered, and as I mentioned previously, some of my knowledge on the "arrangements" is first hand.

Note I did not say that was wrong under the existing rules and policies, only that I don't believe adjusting those policies for ANY new team is good policy for the sport. You, and obviously others, believe it is based on the presumption that the results for that new team that includes a member of X previous results (in this case Danny) will always exceed the results of another new team of some other level of combined results. That may or may not be true - we just will never know because the international assignments were made without the competitors ever competing from a level playing field.

A couple of practical examples might help explain where I'm coming from:

- in Pairs, neither bye provisions nor funding envelopes apply to new teams. Why? Because a new team is just that - prior results of one or both members don't guarantee results of the new team. But, adjusting international assignment policies based on results with different partners is viewed as OK as in this case. To me, this is illogical and not good policy.
(These provisions are also why referencing Alexa and Brandon is irrelevant to the point I'm getting at - they clearly are entitled to a bye, assignments, etc..)

- The adjustments impact the funding issues you mentioned too. If there are limited funds, and a new team (let's assume it includes someone eligible for envelope funding if the prior team had stayed together) has to do full qualifying series competitions, they are paying a lot of money to travel to and attend those events. They are not eligible for any funding. If, instead, a new team is told they will get international assignments without going through the qualifying process or meeting the policy for minimum points in competition, they don't have to do those events or pay for any of them (and did not in this case) AND the cost of attending the international competitions is covered by USFS. They generally also receive more money from their clubs for competing at these events. If you do ythe math, you'll see this adds up over a season.

- The differences also affect actual training on a daily/weekly basis because other new teams have to start competing earlier in the season to attempt to even get on the ISP.

- The difference in developing name recognition on an international level, meeting minimum points for internationals, gaining that needed international experience, etc. also cumulates over time such that new teams are so handicapped it is very difficult to ever equalize. If you cant even count on the selections being made based on the approved policies, why would you bother continuing? (Love of the sport doesn't pay the bills lol)

These are just a few examples, I could add more, but the differences mount up like like death by a thousand little paper cuts. And, that, I don't think is good for Developing depth in pairs v. possibly a better short term outcome.

In any case, to each their own opinion, I hope that better explains mine and that we can move on to supporting the development of US pairs in the ways we feel are most constructive.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Thanks @2sk8. You have first-hand knowledge of the inner-workings, which most fans don't get to experience. It's clearly a tough sport due to the huge expenses and demands of training. I appreciate you breaking down the difficulties that skaters experience. It's definitely a problem. The sport has so many issues that need improving because it simply hasn't progressed at all with changing times. There are so many conflicts of interest internationally and domestically.

I understand better what you are saying. The reason I posted so long after your initial post is that I don't get to this thread that often since it has been switched to a separate section. I definitely do have a lot of thoughts about pairs and about skating in general. One thought leads to another (LOL). The reason I mentioned the sport's history is because I find it fascinating to learn about how the sport developed. There's an excellent book I've been reading by James R. Hines, Figure Skating in the Formative Years -- it examines how pairs and ice dance slowly developed once females started to compete. The sport was a leisure activity for the rich, so it took a long time before it organized as a sport. I was absolutely blown away to learn how the 'tied at the hip' with speed skating happened. Unbelievable! I will have to start a separate thread to discuss.

I think it would be helpful for the sport's growth and promotion if fans and skaters were more in touch with fs history -- in the way that baseball fans know so much about that sport's past, for example.

Again, I don't disagree with what you are saying about the need for consistency and fairness. While I am not as in tune with the stark realities you are discussing firsthand, I do recognize that U.S. fed is backwards in how they operate. Added to that, they are hampered by the sport's overall lack of vision and evolutionary growth, at the ISU level. Figure skating and how it's run and managed is too stuck in the past, without any skilled leadership and fresh ideas.

In the specific case of Ellie/ Danny, the reality is that with all the splits and retirements of top U.S. teams, Danny is needed with a good partner. It's about dealing with things as they are. Meanwhile, work surely needs to be done in battling for change, and finding ways to be equitable in developing talent. The other part of that though, is ensuring there will be competitive opportunities available once a number of teams improve and the field is deep. That's a serious problem.

In addition, attracting big time investors to help grow the sport, is crucial. As it now stands, nothing effective is in place to widely promote the sport consistently in order to attract new audiences. The lame promotion every four years during the Olympics isn't enough. There are so many systemic problems in the way the sport operates, it's mind-boggling.

Thanks again, and Happy New Year to everyone!

 

[Lutzedge]

Ellie Korytek/Timmy Chapman are in 1st place after the Junior SP at US Nats.

I just realized something: Timmy is 22 years old, making him ineligible for juniors internationally. I can't find Ellie's age, but I'm pretty sure that she is around 14 years old. With the new ISU age rules, they won't be eligible in Seniors I believe until after the 2026 Olympics!

These rules puzzle me...

 

[Lutzedge]

Sonia/Daniel are in a somewhat similar situation.

 

[moonvine]

Ellie Korytek/Timmy Chapman are in 1st place after the Junior SP at US Nats.

I just realized something: Timmy is 22 years old, making him ineligible for juniors internationally. I can't find Ellie's age, but I'm pretty sure that she is around 14 years old. With the new ISU age rules, they won't be eligible in Seniors I believe until after the 2026 Olympics!

These rules puzzle me...

We’ve been discussing this at length in the comp threads.

 

[moonvine]

What happened to Megan and Blake? They skated at John Nicks pairs challenge and something else but nothing since. Injury? Split up?

 

[Jeanie19]

What happened to Megan and Blake? They skated at John Nicks pairs challenge and something else but nothing since. Injury? Split up?

I don't think they qualified through regionals. I hope they continue. Particularly Megan she has talent.