2023 U.S. Nationals Sr. Pairs Short Program

[RatedPG]

Also I do not and will not ever watch TSL, so they could be talking about a quint twist and I would not know.


They were moving to the quad phase. Then moved away from it due to it being so undervalued that it wasn’t worth it to do. As I said they may have made it higher scoring but teams definitely moved away from it due to it being undervalued.

Yeah! I’m not a fan, it just showed up in my YouTube feed

I think that’s Alexa and Chris, not Alexa and Brandon. There’s a lot of things Alexa and Brandon do extremely well, the twist in comparison to her and Chris’ is not one.

Oops! I assumed that was Brandon. Why did Skating lesson put this video up a week ago. It completely misled me. Sorry, Chris and Alexa. So, I don’t expect to see a quad twist anytime soon.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Situation chaotic here (family emergency on top of everything else) but… Peacock on the TV, why the hell not at this point. Hoping Plazas/Fernandez go clean

Valentina & Max not only went clean, they skated better than the two teams ahead of them, eh. This is the way the game is played though. U.S. fed already know who they want to send to Worlds. P/ F will have to continue proving themselves.

Like I said in the Practices thread, Jim Peterson always has his teams ready for U.S. Nationals. They show up and show out, sometimes when least expected to do so. I was impressed by Valentina's crispness and surety on the jumps, which she doesn't always display. But they were both on point. I say keep it up for the fp Valentina & Max! Make the judges work!

IMO, Ellie & Danny were slightly better than Emily & Spencer. And Valentina/ Max skated better than both those teams. Of course, Emily/ Spencer medaled on the GP and went to GPF. And they are favored by U. S. fed. E&S have a lot of talent, but they also struggle with injury issues. Had they skated clean, they would be further ahead. Meanwhile, Ellie/ Danny looked prepared and comfortable with each other. There was a double turn on a sbs jump landing by Ellie, yet a good performance overall -- on a par in ability with Emily/ Spencer.

So the middle range 60s scores of C/H, K/O, and P/F were definitely managed and massaged for the outcome most preferred. Still, it's up to the skaters to continue battling and let the chips fall where they may. The fed still reserves the right to send who they prefer to Worlds in any case.

 

[moonvine]

Valentina & Max not only went clean, they skated better than the two teams ahead of them, eh. This is the way the game is played though. U.S. fed already know who they want to send to Worlds. P/ F will have to continue proving themselves.

Like I said in the Practices thread, Jim Peterson always has his teams ready for U.S. Nationals. They show up and show out, sometimes when least expected to do so. I was impressed by Valentina's crispness and surety on the jumps, which she doesn't always display. But they were both on point. I say keep it up for the fp Valentina & Max! Make the judges work!

IMO, Ellie & Danny were slightly better than Emily & Spencer. And Valentina/ Max skated better than both those teams. Of course, Emily/ Spencer medaled on the GP and went to GPF. And they are favored by U. S. fed. E&S have a lot of talent, but they also struggle with injury issues. Had they skated clean, they would be further ahead. Meanwhile, Ellie/ Danny looked prepared and comfortable with each other. There was a double turn on a sbs jump landing by Ellie, yet a good performance overall -- on a par in ability with Emily/ Spencer.

So the middle range 60s scores of C/H, K/O, and P/F were definitely managed and massaged for the outcome most preferred. Still, it's up to the skaters to continue battling and let the chips fall where they may. The fed still reserves the right to send who they prefer to Worlds in any case.

I’m curious as to how they do this though. Do they actually talk to the judges and say “ok, we want to send skaters a, b and c to worlds so make sure the scores allow for us to do that in a clean manner?”. Because if so, really why have the competition? Just name the winners, name the world team and don’t bother with pretense.

 

[Skater Boy]

I’m curious as to how they do this though. Do they actually talk to the judges and say “ok, we want to send skaters a, b and c to worlds so make sure the scores allow for us to do that in a clean manner?”. Because if so, really why have the competition? Just name the winners, name the world team and don’t bother with pretense.

It is going to be a real battle for the two spots after Alexa and Brandon. Though the scoring for KF was way too generous even with national inflation. I do like their elements but they still are not as smooth, powerful, fast or the amplitude of the Chinese or Russians. Interesting fact is that KF will probably have two world championships but Tarasova and Morozov will probably retire with no world title. Life isn't always fair. And to be honest alexa was better with Chris but it is all about timing. And right now without Russia, without China, with Canada in a lull and Italy not really that impressive and France with nothing - if they can hold off Japan it is pretty easy gold but certainly gold or silver.

 

[readernick]

You make a good case for K/F and their choices.

I don't think pairs have to be romantic; there are lots of examples: Aljona and Robin weren't; also there are Ashley and Tim, whose connection came because of their mutual devotion to their music and their expression.

But to take it farther back, there's Tai and Randy. I didn't get a "romantic" vibe from them, and their chosen music was classical.

Still, Tai and Randy made me feel something. For me, that's an essential part of figure skating. Transferring emotions from the skaters, and the way they move, to the audience members.

I agree that the best skaters will convey emotion. But, I think K/F are conveying emotions in their program just not the traditional ones we see in pairs. They convey danger, energy, companionship, and aggressiveness. They seem to be on an adventure/quest together and are bringing the audience along with them. Alexa, in particular, has always been a good performer but this year Brandon is also coming into his own. This is the first time I really feel his commitment in both programs. Of course, you don't have to like their program. We all have our own personal tastes. But, I think it is unfair to suggest they aren't performing. They are performing their program very well and imho conveying the emotions behind the choreo well.

 

[readernick]

My man Sadusky did that! They were a little too close with the spins for my comfort. I liked that they ended with a death spiral.

I was loud as hell. One of the security guys had to look up.

I liked that pair. I think they have potential if they can land SBS triples. They have a great look on the ice and great posture.

 

[labgoat]

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[moonvine]

Yeah! I’m not a fan, it just showed up in my YouTube feed

Oops! I assumed that was Brandon. Why did Skating lesson put this video up a week ago. It completely misled me. Sorry, Chris and Alexa. So, I don’t expect to see a quad twist anytime soon.

Alexa and Chris’ quad twist was one of the best, if not the best, in the world. It was definitely their best element and really stunning. But (per Jimmie Santee, who knows what he is talking about) for some reason decided to conduct a safety study on the quad twist. Shockingly, they discovered that if a team did it well, it was (relatively) safe, while if they did it poorly it was more dangerous. So they devalued it a lot, to the point where Alexa and Chris and most other teams stopped doing it, because the reward was just not worth the risk.

It’s kind of interesting the power the ISU has and that they can change the sport so completely at any time they want. Say they wanted to discourage quads from being done, and they wanted more emphasis on step sequences and spins. They could devalue quads to where they were barely worth more than a triple and massively increase what spins and steps are worth, people would stop training quads and start doing spins and steps. Do I expect this to happen, not at all.

I do think they may not want skaters attempting quints, if such a thing is physically possible, and don’t think they will give them very high value. But I am not the ISU, so I don’t know.

 

[ManyCairns]

I agree that the best skaters will convey emotion. But, I think K/F are conveying emotions in their program just not the traditional ones we see in pairs. They convey danger, energy, companionship, and aggressiveness. They seem to be on an adventure/quest together and are bringing the audience along with them. Alexa, in particular, has always been a good performer but this year Brandon is also coming into his own. This is the first time I really feel his commitment in both programs. Of course, you don't have to like their program. We all have our own personal tastes. But, I think it is unfair to suggest they aren't performing. They are performing their program very well and imho conveying the emotions behind the choreo well.

I'm more of @skylark 's mindset. I see competition steeliness and determination more than emotion through or about the program, with K/F. But K/F have many great qualities and Alexa especially has my admiration for what she is achieving as an older athlete. But they don't move me emotionally, even as I wish them the best and cheer them on. A big point in their favor is their fans on this board, like @moonvine . If they love them I'm gonna love them, too!

 

[moonvine]

It is going to be a real battle for the two spots after Alexa and Brandon. Though the scoring for KF was way too generous even with national inflation. I do like their elements but they still are not as smooth, powerful, fast or the amplitude of the Chinese or Russians. Interesting fact is that KF will probably have two world championships but Tarasova and Morozov will probably retire with no world title. Life isn't always fair. And to be honest alexa was better with Chris but it is all about timing. And right now without Russia, without China, with Canada in a lull and Italy not really that impressive and France with nothing - if they can hold off Japan it is pretty easy gold but certainly gold or silver.

I literally mourned Alexa and Chris’ splitting for almost a year. I thought I could feel confident they of all pairs would not break up. But I don’t agree they were better. They did have a romantic connection that was obvious and almost palpable, but I felt Alexa was constantly worrying about Chris, especially in the SBS jumps, that it was actually affecting her own skating. And it does look like I might have been right, because Alexa and Brandon very rarely ever put a foot wrong.

Oh well. Skating is an opinion.

 

[ChiGal]

I agree that the best skaters will convey emotion. But, I think K/F are conveying emotions in their program just not the traditional ones we see in pairs. They convey danger, energy, companionship, and aggressiveness. They seem to be on an adventure/quest together and are bringing the audience along with them.

I agree with this statement too. But not all pair skaters ( and ice dance couples) need to tell a "love story" to be successful. Some are just power skaters like K/F and can tell a story on a non-romantic theme. I happen to really like their short, but just my opinion.

 

[Spiralgraph]

To me pair teams and dance teams need to have a connection to each other. As a few posters have written above that doesn't mean only a romantic chemistry or likewise.The Shibs had a strong sibling chemistry and they made me feel their joy in skating together. A strong friendship bond works great too, and I`agree that Alexa and Brandon project a good friendship vibe that works well for them. There's not just one "correct" way. And I like it better when there are a lot of skaters skating to their own different styles.

 

[withwings]

Absolutely. All my admiration to Alexa and Brandon, and to all the teams and wholeheartedly (though, I have not watched yet, US NAtionals , all my attentions now on European Championship), It is such a joy that each team is different and all together they make the mosaic of pair skating complete. No one is better or worse provided if they skate they very best potential. Different-yes. And Alexa and Brandon are the best US team.

Re emotions. IMHO Alexa conveys her emotions- she conveys her joy of being in the movement, her joy of skating, her unconditional love of this sport and it has to be appreciated. Lately Brandon adds his emotional presence as well as. IMO they, as a pair, are still "in progress". Perhaps if some coach/choreographer would have tried to open something more in " emotion showing platform", more nuances or etc. it would be different But we cannot expect them to skate or be as we want to. For this reason there are different teams and we can enjoy that particular one team we like the best . I like them all. And wish them all skate to THEIR potential.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

. I do like their elements but they still are not as smooth, powerful, fast or the amplitude of the Chinese or Russians.

Nope. You got that wrong. Just because you apparently do not like Alexa/Brandon does Not mean they don't have great speed, ice coverage, and top notch pop and power on their elements, especially their throws and lifts which are world class. Their twist is above average, though not as great as Calalang/ Johnson's magical, effortless high floating twist. With her hubby Chris, Alexa had one of the best twists in the world -- historically the Knierims had one of the best, if not the best quad twists in the world.

Yep, a lot of people keep trying to dump on Alexa/ Brandon, but what keeps coming across is the misplaced disdain. K/F's 81 pts is deserved for all they have accomplished. Why not complain more about the clear manipulative scoring at 2022 Worlds to ensure Miura/Kihara stayed on the podium with a gift score in the sp and unfair placement over two other teams after a terrible fp?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I literally mourned Alexa and Chris’ splitting for almost a year. I thought I could feel confident they of all pairs would not break up. But I don’t agree they were better. They did have a romantic connection that was obvious and almost palpable, but I felt Alexa was constantly worrying about Chris, especially in the SBS jumps, that it was actually affecting her own skating. And it does look like I might have been right, because Alexa and Brandon very rarely ever put a foot wrong.

Oh well. Skating is an opinion.

Chris/ Alexa were obviously different together with a more romantic connection and an amazing twist. They were together longer too and some of their elements presented slightly differently, though mostly equally well, except for being better on the twist and not as great on the sbs, especially after Chris's injuries.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I’m curious as to how they do this though. Do they actually talk to the judges and say “ok, we want to send skaters a, b and c to worlds so make sure the scores allow for us to do that in a clean manner?”. Because if so, really why have the competition? Just name the winners, name the world team and don’t bother with pretense.

Yeah, I'm not sure. But it's not unusual for the fed and some judges to be of similar minds. It's clear which teams are in favored category. Mitch Moyer was behind Emily/ Spencer pairing.

Some decisions about abilities of skaters and pecking orders may be decided during practices, which judges attend. It's just the way figure skating has always worked, believe it or not. I think judging for the earlier teams was fair, but the early skaters just tend to be a bit low-balled sometimes due to skating early. These days, with BOW committee decision-making, the fed will always choose who they want anyway, though they likely prefer the team selections to be in alignment with competitive results.

For sure, there's not a lot of difference in ability between the middle teams: Chan/ Howe, Kam/ O'Shea, and Plazas/ Fernandez. C/H have more seniority and accomplishments on the GP this season. For being new, Kam/O'Shea look very good together. P/F are well-matched and they have a lot of ability, yet don't always show it, possibly due to nerves and the need to continue gaining experience. P/F were definitely ready here, and they showed more confidence. I hope this sharp, confident version of them continues. I enjoy their program concepts this season.

When I re-watched, I noticed that P/F seemed happy with their scores. I thought they could have received a bit more. I also noticed that, aside from K/F who are in a unique category of their own, Kam/ O'Shea skated with perhaps the most speed, joy and ease vs the other teams. That's what I noticed.

Chan/Howe for me are like a banked fire holding back but wanting to break out. I think they are held back and less consistently confident due to struggling with nagging injuries. Emily's ankle issues would explain her hesitancy and lack of consistency on landing jumps and throws. They could be very exciting if they were fully healthy and confident.

I do love the compelling look and supportive interaction that Nica/ Mark have together on the ice. Check out Nica's Instagram for clips from their training workouts, along with some exhibition photos and highlight clips.

 

[skylark]

I agree that the best skaters will convey emotion. But, I think K/F are conveying emotions in their program just not the traditional ones we see in pairs. They convey danger, energy, companionship, and aggressiveness. They seem to be on an adventure/quest together and are bringing the audience along with them. Alexa, in particular, has always been a good performer but this year Brandon is also coming into his own. This is the first time I really feel his commitment in both programs. Of course, you don't have to like their program. We all have our own personal tastes. But, I think it is unfair to suggest they aren't performing. They are performing their program very well and imho conveying the emotions behind the choreo well.

I don't think I said they weren't performing, but if I did, I apologize. You stated very well what they convey. I like the adventure/quest idea.

Still, I'm not backing down from what I said last night. However, it was the wee hours for me (3 hours later than San Jose!), and one of the things I left out was how important a visible connection between pairs and dance skaters is to me. I hinted at it with Ashley and Tim; also Sui and Han said their connection was through the music.

Ashley Wagner said it very well during the RD sr. US event last night. Speaking of Isabella Flores and Ivan (her partner), she said, "They take the time to look at each other." That shows an acknowledgement that two souls are communicating with each other, even if it's just for a few seconds at a time. It also draws the audience into that communication, which is one of the things I want to experience. I want to be drawn in.

Anyway, I certainly got people talking around here.

 

[withwings]

Where can I watch pairs sp in its completeness?? Any suggestions, please

 

[readernick]

I don't think I said they weren't performing, but if I did, I apologize. You stated very well what they convey. I like the adventure/quest idea.

Still, I'm not backing down from what I said last night. However, it was the wee hours for me (3 hours later than San Jose!), and one of the things I left out was how important a visible connection between pairs and dance skaters is to me. I hinted at it with Ashley and Tim; also Sui and Han said their connection was through the music.

Ashley Wagner said it very well during the RD sr. US event last night. Speaking of Isabella Flores and Ivan (her partner), she said, "They take the time to look at each other." That shows an acknowledgement that two souls are communicating with each other, even if it's just for a few seconds at a time. It also draws the audience into that communication, which is one of the things I want to experience. I want to be drawn in.

Anyway, I certainly got people talking around here.

That comment wasn't really directed toward you. You didn't say that and I'm sorry if I suggested you did. It is just a common viewpoint that many seem to hold about this team.

Personally, I really don't think the SP program necessarily calls for eye contact. But, they would benefit from more eye contact in the FS. I'm not really inclined to defend their FS as much as I will their SP. I like the unique direction they have taken in the SP. I think the pairs discipline would benefit from more departures from the norm.

The FS is better than most pairs' programs this season but isn't really as unique and is more traditional, so hopefully, they do look at each other more during that program. It would definitely help their presentation in that segment.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Where can I watch pairs sp in its completeness?? Any suggestions, please

The Jr. pairs sp was never posted as a replay. At least, I never saw it posted. Maybe that was because Peacock did not start the stream on time and two performances were cut off.

If you are asking about the Senior pairs sp replay, that was available through yesterday on Peacock, under Highlights and Replays for Figure Skating. I don't know if it's still up today.

If you ask me, they should have made all replays available for at least a week or two. Of course, I'm glad replays were even provided. If they hadn't been, I surely would have missed more events, especially with Europeans happening simultaneously with U.S. Nationals.

With so much content that overlapped, it would be impossible to see every event live. Even with the replays, fans surely can't put their lives on hold and do nothing else but watch skating all day, every day for a week, which would be required to see everything. Plus, some events, such as U.S. pairs, and U.S. ice dance, I wanted to view more than once. Euros men was very exciting too. I just had to miss Euros ladies and ice dance. No time to squeeze those events into my schedule.