2023 CS Autumn Classic Pairs Free Skate | Page 16 | Golden Skate

2023 CS Autumn Classic Pairs Free Skate

slider11

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Jan 12, 2014
Well, it's early in the season.... I am puzzled by the relatively high scores given the Canadian team of Proft and Nadeau. I thought her technical skills were pretty shaky and the performance was flat, at best. I have to agree with judge 1 who gave a 4 for presentation. Lui and Nagy were not perfect by any means but there seemed to me to be much more substance and flow. But I guess home field is worth 0.19 points! Sorry to hear that the Japanese are recovering from injury, hopefully they will fully recover and can regain their strength and charm on ice. I think Deanna and Maxime certainly deserved to win but I'm not getting the vampire schtike. At times her hands looked like she was reverting to Cleopatra! But bravo for having that skill at age 40!

Good to see a skating competition!
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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Well, it's early in the season.... I am puzzled by the relatively high scores given the Canadian team of Proft and Nadeau. I thought her technical skills were pretty shaky and the performance was flat, at best. I have to agree with judge 1 who gave a 4 for presentation. Lui and Nagy were not perfect by any means but there seemed to me to be much more substance and flow. But I guess home field is worth 0.19 points!
Very true. I never get over being disappointed when I see what seems like home field favoritism.

Also, I wish skaters, coaches, fans would stop saying "you can't win with a short program, but you can lose with one."

It's so clear to me that many, many skate competitions have been won by having a lead going into the free skate. And it's something that confuses the hell out of audiences ... when the emotion, the elements, and the presentation are all present in a latter place skate, and the SP gives the win or lead or medal to a somewhat lesser (IMO) skating performance.

There, I've got that off my chest. :)
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Well this was a great free from these two, might be the best ive seen them skate ever:cheer2:

Overall this has been a great competition for them especially as they been MIA last season.

They look so happy thats really nice to see:ghug: back to back happy teams, lets hope the rest of the teams keep this momentum up!
I loved it! The soup bone song I could do without but I love them!!!
 

BlissfulSynergy

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@slider and @skylark, I completely agree with your remarks. Just looking at the judge's scoring details is depressing and headache-inducing. πŸ€ͺ The scoring did not make sense in many respects in both sp and fp. I guess many fans will shrug shoulders, scratch heads or roll eyes, but ultimately make excuses for the results, or just ignore and move on. That's sadly figure skating. It's to the point where I want to ignore the score box completely during the programs to avoid being distracted. I want to learn how to judge elements better myself and do my own judging and leave it at that, regardless of what the often political-based official scores are.

The way this comp was judged simply deligitimizes figure skating scoring. The Netherlands judge gave Liu/ Nagy a 3 for their 3-twist in the sp, and a 2 for the same gorgeous 3-twist in the fp. πŸ‘€ Why? L/N's 3-twist is huge and effortless. It's as if Chelsea is floating, the height is so huge and the rotations are so fast. In the fp, the GOE on L/N's 3-twist was 1.4, which should have been higher. L/ N also didn't get quality credit for their lifts, style, and their smooth flow over the ice.

In the sp, L/N were .74 ahead of Proft/ Nadeau on pcs. In the fp, L/N were behind P/N on pcs by 1.6. πŸ˜³πŸ™„ Please, make it make sense! πŸ™ πŸ₯΄ The tech scores were rightly lower in the fp for P/N, and they actually placed 5th behind L/ N and the British team (Vaipan-Law/ Digby), on tech in the fp. πŸ™ˆπŸ˜‰ But the judges gave P/N the bronze by a hair on the basis of pcs! πŸ™„πŸ€•πŸ™ƒπŸ˜œ

I imagine that most skaters learn to pace themselves, stay centered with what they can do and judge themselves on the basis of goals they set for each competition, instead of relying on flaky, flighty, unreliable ISU judging to fully determine their worth or their progress. I'm glad for seeing Emma & Nic look much improved and so happy to make the podium. Still, hopefully they realize this judging is not a good measure of their actual progress, or a true indicator of where they need to continue to improve.

Meanwhile, Chelsea Liu, with the help of their coaches will need to figure out how to get better snap in getting her free leg out and free on jump landings! Whether it takes looking into a special trainer for leg strength and agility, and/ or drilling and gaining confidence and belief. Whatever it takes, get on it and get it done. I like how Brandon, in the kiss 'n cry, with his loads of experience (complemented by Meno/ Sand's teaching passed down from legendary, John Nicks) kept things cool, calm, and collected. Liu/Nagy are a very good team. I hope they are committed for the long haul, and I hope they have the good luck needed to prevail in this gnarly pairs discipline, cuz they certainly have the talent and the skill, maximized by sex appeal!! ✨️
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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@slider and @skylark, I completely agree with your remarks. Just looking at the judge's scoring details is depressing and headache-inducing.

The way this comp was judged simply deligitimizes figure skating scoring. The Netherlands judge gave Liu/ Nagy a 3 for their 3-twist in the sp, and a 2 for the same gorgeous 3-twist in the fp. πŸ‘€ Why? L/N's 3-twist is huge and effortless. It's as if Chelsea is floating, the height is so huge and the rotations are so fast. In the fp, the GOE on L/N's 3-twist was 1.4, which should have been higher. L/ N also didn't get quality credit for their lifts, style, and their smooth flow over the ice.

In the sp, L/N were .74 ahead of Proft/ Nadeau on pcs. In the fp, L/N were behind P/N on pcs by 1.6. πŸ˜³πŸ™„ Please, make it make sense! πŸ™ πŸ₯΄ The tech scores were rightly lower in the fp for P/N, and they actually placed 5th behind L/ N and the British team (Vaipan-Law/ Digby), on tech in the fp. πŸ™ˆπŸ˜‰ But the judges gave P/N the bronze by a hair on the basis of pcs! πŸ™„πŸ€•πŸ™ƒπŸ˜œ

As soon as I saw the protocols, I said, "yep." It seems like old times ... the judges just find a way to manipulate the numbers for the result that they want. Very depressing.

Meanwhile, Chelsea Liu, with the help of their coaches will need to figure out how to get better snap in getting her free leg out and free on jump landings! Whether it takes looking into a special trainer for leg strength and agility, and/ or drilling and gaining confidence and belief. Whatever it takes, get on it and get it done. I like how Brandon, in the kiss 'n cry, with his loads of experience (complemented by Meno/ Sand's teaching passed down from legendary, John Nicks) kept things cool, calm, and collected. Liu/Nagy are a very good team. I hope they are committed for the long haul, and I hope they have the good luck needed to prevail in this gnarly pairs discipline, cuz they certainly have the talent and the skill, maximized by sex appeal!! ✨️

If it weren't an obnoxious thing to do, I'd send Chelsea a clip of Elena Bechke saying she took an extra 1-1/2 hours of lessons twice or 3x a week, from a separate jump coach, for at least a year, to be able to land her toe jumps at the 1992 olympics. On top of regular coaching and practice. Tamara had tried everything else. And they got good results.

I agree with you that Emmanuelle and Nic are a lovely pair. It's great to see Nic's passion, and his total enjoyment.

And I also heartily wish for Chelsea and Balazs to continue long together, and to get credit for their talent, skill, and beautiful expression. This is their first international outing, so there's hope that the judges will soon recognize their qualities.
 

el henry

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Sorry, Chelsea and Balasz are NOT light years ahead of Emma and Nic in every way.:sneaky:

This American does not think it was home cooking, but decent scoring that gave Emma and Nic the bronze. Also, different strokes for different folks, Chelsea and Balasz put me to sleep during that FS. Whatever their issues, Emma and Nic did not. :shrug:
 

BlissfulSynergy

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Some bright spots, putting the confounding judging aside:

Seeing the mature progress of Martins/ Bedard. While a bit slow, they are improving their elements and their confidence. They did very well here, especially considering that Isabelle has been ill recently.

Happy to see the tech improvements and confidence of Vaipan-Law/ Digby since last season. It clearly helped them to get GP competition under their belts last season. They have always had great presentation skills, and their tech elements are much stronger now. It's definitely a constant process of improving in figure skating. It's lovely to see their growth and well-earned happiness for how well they did here.

Love, love both of Deanna/ Max's programs. ❀ I hope they can work out the kinks in their fp and skate it to its full potential at the big events. πŸ‘Œ

Riku/ Ryuichi -- the only thing I can say is, I love that cool entry into their death spiral in the sp. Cool death spiral entries are a thing, as we saw from Liu/ Nagy and McBeath/ Parkman, at the Glacier Falls summer competition. Otherwise, R&R appear to need some R and R posthaste, and some retooling/ overhauling their focus and their programs.

Hungry teams are gonna be chasing the podium this season. I hope the judging at ACI signals the judges will refrain from keeping R&R on the podium with constant mistakes. Get better music and more interesting programs! They went from being scored 80 to 59 in the sp. πŸ’¨ πŸ‘€ Even with clean skating, 80 is too high, and 59 with the two falls in the sp, was too low for this team. Perhaps vaulting them from low 60s to mid-70s and beyond for the Olympic season, is back-firing. Oh well. The Italian team (Conti/ Maci) was helped to make the podium at '23 Worlds, in order to get their fed three spots in pairs this season. So, the scoring politics will be interesting on the GP and beyond, especially in pairs and ice dance. πŸ˜” I wish it would just be fair scoring for all the skaters.
 
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BlissfulSynergy

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Sorry, Chelsea and Balasz are NOT light years ahead of Emma and Nic in every way.:sneaky:

This American does not think it was home cooking, but decent scoring that gave Emma and Nic the bronze. Also, different strokes for different folks, Chelsea and Balasz put me to sleep during that FS. Whatever their issues, Emma and Nic did not. :shrug:
Hey, different strokes for different folks. None of us will agree about favorite skaters or music preferences or choreography likes and dislikes. However, basic pairs skating quality is observable. Nic and Emma are very good. They have great connection and they have improved a lot since last season, especially in their confidence. As I said, in the sp, I can see why P/N were placed ahead, as they skated fairly clean. In the fp, weaknesses usually begin to show up. P/N are still mastering difficulty on the pairs elements, and they don't have the same level of speed and flow over the ice. OTOH, Liu/ Nagy can't afford to make mistakes. Like most U.S. pairs teams, they need to be clean in order to have their talent recognized and fairly rewarded.

There appears to be certain music you don't like, which is favored by Irvine choreographers. LOL! I don't particularly care for some of the music selections of Irvine pairs teams. But I enjoyed both of L/N's programs. It's not 'hit it out the ballpark homerun music,' but it's still fun to watch them. Their music choices are not the worst choices out there. Nic & Emma are fun to watch too. They clearly thought they had lost the third spot after finishing their fp. But the homecooking did help them, by a hair. It's an international panel, so it's interesting to see which judges went which way. πŸ™…

Undoubtedly, SC is good with politics. The U.S. is not, historically. I saw an old interview in which Frank Carroll and a former U.S. fed official discussed how poor the U.S. has been with fs politics, because U.S. fed simply expected skaters to do well on merit, and for judging to be fair. Over the years, they have learned quite often how it doesn't work that way, but they still haven't figured out how to finesse things politically. That seems to fall more to top skaters' coaches, at least the coaches who have political pull and savvy.

I think at ACI, although Chelsea & Balasz are well known, and very experienced in junior and senior pairs internationally, neither their coaches nor their fed play the political game. The Irvine coaches seem to concentrate more on training prep and confidence building. SC works on prep and confidence-building too. And, they are politically savvy. SC is definitely focused on rebuilding their pairs discipline, and they surely wanted to give P/N a boost here. The judges are human beings; people in the sport know each other, and talk to each other. How practices proceed counts as well as buzz and perceptions. The perception is that Liu/Nagy are a new team and thus are seen as expendable in the scoring. Chelsea's issues on the jump landings also does not help them perception-wise. And maybe some judges aren't partial to their music either, along with any number of other factors and individual judges' subjective prejudices. Traditionally, skaters competing in a home venue can be helped. This is NOT new(s) in figure skating. It doesn't matter whether fans want to acknowledge how the sport works or not. It all comes out in the wash, eventually, whether fairly adjudicated or not.

The sport rolls how it rolls. My interest and joy is based on seeing skaters reach great heights after putting in the effort and the sacrifices. It's a long journey, with many ups-and-downs. No matter who steps on the podium, true winning comes from the experience of being in the arena, and "with sweat, and blood, and tears, striving valiantly... while daring greatly."

The skaters deserve better judging, but it is what it is. I think most skaters realize their satisfaction has to come from within, from measuring their success not by the scoring box and the medals, but by the knowledge of the progress they have actually made through hard work. When their hard work pays off with deserved medal recognition, that's the icing on the cake. The emotions experienced when coming off the ice after a great performance, is the real victory.
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
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Sorry, Chelsea and Balasz are NOT light years ahead of Emma and Nic in every way.:sneaky:

This American does not think it was home cooking, but decent scoring that gave Emma and Nic the bronze. Also, different strokes for different folks, Chelsea and Balasz put me to sleep during that FS. Whatever their issues, Emma and Nic did not. :shrug:

πŸ’― I didn't think there was political judging nor home cooking at all at this event. Also, Emma and Nic were at their first ever international event, and they had to work hard for their score, starting with a clean SP. If anything, they could have scored higher considering the rest of the field (except D and M) didn't skate clean. I find it hilarious to read (someone else said that, not you) that Skate Canada is politics savvy. OMG. :) Skate Canada cannot even send their own skater out or use their host spots at SCI... and often, the Canadian judge is the one giving tough love to the Canadian skaters... I nearly fell off my chair reading this.

Regarding favourable scoring towards the reigning world champs, funny enough, I mentioned this happening last year when K/F had issues at Skate America (or was it another event?) , but I was told that their elements were so much stronger than Deanna and Max, who had a better performance, that it wasn't home cooking nor skating while world champion but just good scoring.. funny how when it happens to another team, some people do not appreciate it.

In the LP, Nic and Emma were disappointed because (and I am making an assumption but also from the look from Emma and the gesture she made) they messed up (Emma popped her jumps) on their strength, the SBS jumps. They have a loop combo which worked very well at CQÉ. So yeah... of course, they were sad, they skated this program so much better a few weeks ago where they scored 118 points in the LP...
 
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BlissfulSynergy

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Yep, it is what it is. Varying perceptions are what they are too. Cool if some fans don't believe SC has political savvy. They have more than the U.S., particularly in terms of connections and major roles within the ISU. Whether or not SC makes the best decisions for skater development is a different story from whether or not they have and know how to utilize political influence.

I remember the 2022 Skate America thread very well. In particular, there was unfortunately unkind, negative, personal things said by a poster about Alexa Knierim that were simply not true, and were uncalled for. Others pushed back on this person's comments but there was never an apology. The poster was upset about Deanna & Max not winning gold. Other Canadian posters rightly pointed out that Canada had two teams on the SA podium in second and third place. I will bet that Deanna & Max were very happy about their silver medal, and not upset over not winning gold. Deanna & Max are very friendly with Alexa & Chris, and they visited the Oakton rink this summer to work with Timothy LeDuc.

Meanwhile at '22 SA, Alexa & Brandon were rusty and had miscues, but not as bad as what we've seen from Miura/ Kihara. A&B did not have a tuneup before SA, as they had made a late decision to continue competing. In addition, Alexa had recently lost her grandmother, and a beloved pet. All of this came out much later. Alexa never spoke in a competitive setting about her personal losses. But those who follow her on Instagram would have been aware. Athletes always have to go through personal and career setbacks, and they have to be ready when opportunities arise. Alexa & Brandon skated lights out at the Olympics in the team competition and in the pairs event. And under unexpected pressure at '22 Worlds, they skated fearlessly in-the-zone. Not many skaters would have been able to accomplish going clean under that kind of pressure. They more than proved themselves, and they were respected by the judges at '22 SA. They didn't have to come back for another season, but they did, not just for themselves, but for the U.S. pairs discipline. I respect and appreciate them for doing so, and for all they have contributed during their career, and for what they are giving back now as coaches.

I was not involved in the initial discussions in last year's SA thread on GS. I read through it later, but I only posted my opinions in support of Alexa against the nasty, personal insults in that thread. When I saw the event, I thought Alexa/ Brandon were in trouble of losing after their fp miscues. Deanna & Max skated well in both programs. But, this was their GP debut. Although D&M skated well, there was a bit of unbalanced saved landings by Deanna in the fp, but nothing too bad. They got 68 in the sp for the first time at their previous competition. And suddenly 73 at Skate America, so a quick scoring transition for them. The difference being that they were newly established as Canada's #1 pairs team, which elevated their status, and they proceeded to earn it last season with their display of talent. Yet, up against the reigning World champs skating at home, Deanna & Max did not win. That's not surprising. I've seen Meagan & Eric as former World champs skating at home, making errors and still being placed ahead of clean challengers. Not to mention the many times Russian skaters have prevailed in podium positions with errors against lower placed teams who skated clean.

This 2023 ACI competition is a different situation in that the two teams under discussion are fairly new partnerships, but with one team separately having years of previous medal-winning pairs experience, mainly in juniors. Neither team are quite yet at World championship caliber level in seniors, but both teams exhibit exciting potential. Again, different strokes for different folks regarding perceptions of the '23 ACI pairs event.
 
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icewhite

Record Breaker
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Dec 7, 2022
Undoubtedly, SC is good with politics. The U.S. is not, historically. I saw an old interview in which Frank Carroll and a former U.S. fed official discussed how poor the U.S. has been with fs politics, because U.S. fed simply expected skaters to do well on merit, and for judging to be fair.

Oh please. I don't know enough about pairs to really take part in this discussion in detail, but that's just ridiculous. I think the only fed that equals or exceeds scoring politics of the US fed is the Russian one. The US has a strong politicking game in figure skating, how can anyone pretend otherwise.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Yep, it is what it is. Varying perceptions are what they are too. Cool if some fans don't believe SC has political savvy. They have more than the U.S., particularly in terms of connections and major roles within the ISU. Whether or not SC makes the best decisions for skater development is a different story from whether or not they have and know how to utilize political influence.

I remember the 2022 Skate America thread very well. In particular, there was unfortunately unkind, negative, personal things said by a poster about Alexa Knierim that were simply not true, and were uncalled for. Others pushed back on this person's comments but there was never an apology. The poster was upset about Deanna & Max not winning gold. Other Canadian posters rightly pointed out that Canada had two teams on the SA podium in second and third place. I will bet that Deanna & Max were very happy about their silver medal, and not upset over not winning gold. Deanna & Max are very friendly with Alexa & Chris, and they visited the Oakton rink this summer to work with Timothy LeDuc.

Meanwhile at '22 SA, Alexa & Brandon were rusty and had miscues, but not as bad as what we've seen from Miura/ Kihara. A&B did not have a tuneup before SA, as they had made a late decision to continue competing. In addition, Alexa had recently lost her grandmother, and a beloved pet. All of this came out much later. Alexa never spoke in a competitive setting about her personal losses. But those who follow her on Instagram would have been aware. Athletes always have to go through personal and career setbacks, and they have to be ready when opportunities arise. Alexa & Brandon skated lights out at the Olympics in the team competition and in the pairs event. And under unexpected pressure at '22 Worlds, they skated fearlessly in-the-zone. Not many skaters would have been able to accomplish going clean under that kind of pressure. They more than proved themselves, and they were respected by the judges at '22 SA. They didn't have to come back for another season, but they did, not just for themselves, but for the U.S. pairs discipline. I respect and appreciate them for doing so, and for all they have contributed during their career, and for what they are giving back now as coaches.

I was not involved in the initial discussions in last year's SA thread on GS. I read through it later, but I only posted my opinions in support of Alexa against the nasty, personal insults in that thread. When I saw the event, I thought Alexa/ Brandon were in trouble of losing after their fp miscues. Deanna & Max skated well in both programs. But, this was their GP debut. Although D&M skated well, there was a bit of unbalanced saved landings by Deanna in the fp, but nothing too bad. They got 68 in the sp for the first time at their previous competition. And suddenly 73 at Skate America, so a quick scoring transition for them. The difference being that they were newly established as Canada's #1 pairs team, which elevated their status, and they proceeded to earn it last season with their display of talent. Yet, up against the reigning World champs skating at home, Deanna & Max did not win. That's not surprising. I've seen Meagan & Eric as former World champs skating at home, making errors and still being placed ahead of clean challengers. Not to mention the many times Russian skaters have prevailed in podium positions with errors against lower placed teams who skated clean.

This 2023 ACI competition is a different situation in that the two teams under discussion are fairly new partnerships, but with one team separately having years of previous medal-winning pairs experience, mainly in juniors. Neither team are quite yet at World championship caliber level in seniors, but both teams exhibit exciting potential. Again, different strokes for different folks regarding perceptions of the '23 ACI pairs event.
I stand by my statement and have no inclination to offer any sort of apology for my comments. Just to be clear!
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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πŸ’― I didn't think there was political judging nor home cooking at all at this event. Also, Emma and Nic were at their first ever international event, and they had to work hard for their score, starting with a clean SP. If anything, they could have scored higher considering the rest of the field (except D and M) didn't skate clean. I find it hilarious to read (someone else said that, not you) that Skate Canada is politics savvy. OMG. :) Skate Canada cannot even send their own skater out or use their host spots at SCI... and often, the Canadian judge is the one giving tough love to the Canadian skaters... I nearly fell off my chair reading this.

Regarding favourable scoring towards the reigning world champs, funny enough, I mentioned this happening last year when K/F had issues at Skate America (or was it another event?) , but I was told that their elements were so much stronger than Deanna and Max, who had a better performance, that it wasn't home cooking nor skating while world champion but just good scoring.. funny how when it happens to another team, some people do not appreciate it.

In the LP, Nic and Emma were disappointed because (and I am making an assumption but also from the look from Emma and the gesture she made) they messed up (Emma popped her jumps) on their strength, the SBS jumps. They have a loop combo which worked very well at CQÉ. So yeah... of course, they were sad, they skated this program so much better a few weeks ago where they scored 118 points in the LP...
I think both Skate Canada and USFS are terrible with regards to political savvy. Japan and Korea maybe. US and Canada no.
 
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