2023 NHK Trophy: Pairs' Thoughts?

[gsk8]

Hase and Volodin dominate Pairs' at NHK Trophy in debut season

2023 NHK Trophy: Pairs Minerva Fabienne Hase and Nikita Volodin of Germany dominated the Pairs’ event at 2023 NHK Trophy, winning the title on Saturday in Osaka, Japan. Italy’s Lucrezia […]

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Very thrilled for Hase and Volodin! So much growth in such little time!! Truly a very good match!

Your Finalists! It's exciting to see two strong teams from Italy and Germany and will enjoy watching the rivalry

1	Deanna STELLATO-DUDEK / Maxime DESCHAMPS	CAN		15		15			30
2	Minerva Fabienne HASE / Nikita VOLODIN	GER					15	15	30
3	Lia PEREIRA / Trennt MICHAUD	CAN	13		15				28
4	Sara CONTI / Niccolo MACII	ITA			13		13		26
5	Annika HOCKE / Robert KUNKEL	GER	15			9			24
6	Rebecca GHILARDI / Filippo AMBROSINI	ITA				13		11	24

 

[lariko]

Great distribution for GPF, but would love to see a swap of one of the Italian teams or, even better, S-D/D for Pavlova/Svyatchenko to improve diversity.

 

[rain]

I have all my fingers and toes crossed for Deanna and Max to have a skate like they had at Skate Canada. Very impressed with Pereira/Michaud for making the final in only their second season together. With the disappointing performance of the younger Canadian teams on the circuit this season, they've clearly established themselves as Canada #2.

 

[4everchan]

Great distribution for GPF, but would love to see a swap of one of the Italian teams or, even better, S-D/D for Pavlova/Svyatchenko to improve diversity.

Diversity? it's never been as diverse as now on the circuit, especially with pairs when it was pretty much almost china and russia taking the GPF spots. I am surprised you are suggesting that the top qualifying team of all qualifiers, isn't worthy enough and that you would ditch them to favour the young Hungarian team of P/S. They are truly on the rise with consistent elements but there is a lot of work for them to accomplish in order to present themselves at the highest level. I am just confused here.

ETA if ever you had suggested something like the Hungarians had a higher total score than another team who is qualified, that would at least be rational right?

Again, very confused.

ETA 2 Also, there would be greater diversity but two of the seeded teams w/d because of injuries. If they had competed, P/S may have not even been in the picture.

 

[lariko]

Diversity? it's never been as diverse as now on the circuit, especially with pairs when it was pretty much almost china and russia taking the GPF spots. I am surprised you are suggesting that the top qualifying team of all qualifiers, isn't worthy enough and that you would ditch them to favour the young Hungarian team of P/S. They are truly on the rise with consistent elements but there is a lot of work for them to accomplish in order to present themselves at the highest level. I am just confused here.

ETA if ever you had suggested something like the Hungarians had a higher total score than another team who is qualified, that would at least be rational right?

Again, very confused.

ETA 2 Also, there would be greater diversity but two of the seeded teams w/d because of injuries. If they had competed, P/S may have not even been in the picture.

I prefer to have all participants from different countries, so w/o Russians, i want to enjoy at least that.

 

[4everchan]

I prefer to have all participants from different countries, so w/o Russians, i want to enjoy at least that.

That's fine but GPF is merit based. I am really surprised of your position on this one. I have seen people advocate non-stop so that 10 Russian women would be allowed to participate at worlds or Euros so all the best athletes would be competing .. and now in the ONE event of the year where there is truly a limited qualifying process, then the diversity argument comes up.

In that sense, I'd like Conrad and Madeline at GPF too. Might as well remove one or two of the very deserving Japanese skaters right?

 

[lariko]

That's fine but GPF is merit based. I am really surprised of your position on this one. I have seen people advocate non-stop so that 10 Russian women would be allowed to participate at worlds or Euros so all the best athletes would be competing .. and now in the ONE event of the year where there is truly a limited qualifying process, then the diversity argument comes up.

In that sense, I'd like Conrad and Madeline at GPF too. Might as well remove one or two of the very deserving Japanese skaters right?

I always prefer that, podiums from all different countries, GPF as well. that Russian obsession with all 3 on the podium or all 6 in the final was totally counterproductive imo. So, yeah, I like it when it just so happens that all 6 participants represent different countries, because that means things are good. And I am also not a huge fan of S-D/D. Yeah, in women, if things turned out differently, i would have minded it as well to me it's more fun when it's less of the same country. I mean, what's the point of no Russians, if it's all of some other country? Basically, as far as i am concerned, after 2 years, pros for removing Russians are zero, and cons are many. Am bored with ISU's direction. This is no longer the figure skating that impressed me so much in 2018...honestly, I am out for next season if Russians are not back.

 

[4everchan]

I always prefer that, podiums from all different countries, GPF as well. that Russian obsession with all 3 on the podium or all 6 in the final was totally counterproductive imo. So, yeah, I like it when it just so happens that all 6 participants represent different countries, because that means things are good. And I am also not a huge fan of S-D/D. Yeah, in women, if things turned out differently, i would have minded it as well to me it's more fun when it's less of the same country. I mean, what's the point of no Russians, if it's all of some other country? Basically, as far as i am concerned, after 2 years, pros for removing Russians are zero, and cons are many. Am bored with ISU's direction. This is no longer the figure skating that impressed me so much in 2018...honestly, I am out for next season if Russians are not back.

Well, i see now why you would prefer the Hungarians included. You can enjoy Volodin for now.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Great distribution for GPF, but would love to see a swap of one of the Italian teams or, even better, S-D/D for Pavlova/Svyatchenko to improve diversity.

What do you mean by S-D/D for Pavlova/ Sviatchenko?

Frankly, I think Hocke/ Kunkel are not all that strong, and I'd like to see more of Peng/ Wang and their Sorcerer's Apprentice program. (Albeit, Peng/ Wang must increase their difficulty and improve their twist). H/K benefited by a weaker field at SA. Beccari/ Guarise are also the more interesting, albeit newest Italian pair team. While Ghil/ Amb have strong lifts and a dramatic FP, which camouflages some of their weaknesses, I don't enjoy their skating. Conti/ Maci are charming and they work hard, but I'm not interested in their old FP, and their slow skating. Still, I can't deny these two Italian teams tend to compete well, albeit they are often overly highly scored for their abilities. Pav/Sviat skated well on the GP, but it's luck of the draw. The Australians (Golubeva/ Giotopolous-Moore) are very good too, and more interesting than the Italian teams, but G/G-M need to work on their consistency and confidence.

I'd love to see two U.S. teams at GPF like last year. But, oh boy, that was last year.

'Swapping out' is simply not how the GPF works. I question the judging in a number of instances, but these competitors won their spots by their efforts and based on the rules that are in place.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I am also not a huge fan of S-D/D.

LOL! Oh well.

I didn't like it when the judges gifted Miura/Kihara at 2022 Worlds with silver, when by their unexpected weak performances, they should have placed 3rd, or arguably 4th. But the judges' decision remains in the record book. And M/K's fans are pleased and can't wait for them to get healthy and contend again at 4CCs and Worlds.

You're not gonna like it when Deanna & Max win GPF and possibly 4CCs and Worlds.

 

[NanaPat]

I wanted a result of B/G 1st, G/A 2nd and H/V 3rd. That way all three medalists at NHK would qualify for the GPF and Hocke/Kunkel would be out. Hocke/Kunkel qualified because they were gifted the gold at Skate America in a very close finish where they got all the reputation points. If you look at all the tiebreakers besides the first one, H/K are down in 10th place or lower.

I say this even if it would have resulted in the execrable Cats music at the GPF!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I always prefer that, podiums from all different countries, GPF as well. that Russian obsession with all 3 on the podium or all 6 in the final was totally counterproductive imo. So, yeah, I like it when it just so happens that all 6 participants represent different countries, because that means things are good. And I am also not a huge fan of S-D/D. Yeah, in women, if things turned out differently, i would have minded it as well to me it's more fun when it's less of the same country. I mean, what's the point of no Russians, if it's all of some other country? Basically, as far as i am concerned, after 2 years, pros for removing Russians are zero, and cons are many. Am bored with ISU's direction. This is no longer the figure skating that impressed me so much in 2018...honestly, I am out for next season if Russians are not back.

You can't wait for the Russians to get back, yet you prefer diverse countries to be represented in pairs on the GPF. Do you realize how contradictory that sounds.

If things return to the way they were in a few seasons, there will be four Russian teams and two Chinese teams, or perhaps three Russian teams, one Chinese team, a Canadian team and a German team represented. Or, possibly the only viable Japanese team in lieu of either a Canadian or German team. Hopefully, there will just be wonderful athletes with improved skills who compete well every year, regardless of country affiliation.

Last season's GPF for pairs included two Italian teams, two U.S. teams, one Canadian team, and one Japanese team. The medals went to Japan's M/K; U.S.'s K/F; and Italy's C/M. So this year, still two Italian teams, no Japanese or U.S. teams, but two Canadian teams, and two German teams. Medals may go to Canada, Germany, and Italy this year.

The last two years have been much more diverse than Russian pairs teams winning all the medals at GPF, or only Russian and Chinese teams winning. No one is ever going to be completely satisfied, no matter what. In any case, the sport simply needs to offer more opportunities to all athletes.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Unfortunately I couldn't watch much of the pairs competition at NHK live, but hope I will somehow manage for the GPF. All the pairs who qualified are worthy of the final. They'll each bring their own special something and I'm sure it will be an exciting competition. I have to admit though, I have soft spot for MF Hase. A couple of years back, she used to compete (with her previous partner) with Ziegler/Kiefer for the bronze medals at the Senior Bs and I watched the "middle-of-the-pack" rivalry between the two teams biting my nails. Look how far she's made it since then!

 

[Dreamer57]

Happy to see H/V win their second gold! Their turnaround from Espoo was remarkable, can't wait to see how they skate in 2 weeks!

Really pleased to see G/GM earn a new PB in the SP - despite the Australian judge putting them in 5th (do they not like their own pair) The same judge placed H/V in 6th I would prefer G/GM to change their free dance costumes but it was good to see the skating improvement from their previous GP event!

I wanted a result of B/G 1st, G/A 2nd and H/V 3rd. That way all three medalists at NHK would qualify for the GPF and Hocke/Kunkel would be out. Hocke/Kunkel qualified because they were gifted the gold at Skate America in a very close finish where they got all the reputation points. If you look at all the tiebreakers besides the first one, H/K are down in 10th place or lower.

I say this even if it would have resulted in the execrable Cats music at the GPF!

I for one, am pleased to see H/K qualifying. They beat P/M at their first event, who are also going to GPF. The world champions withdrew from skate America so H/K indeed were fortunate to win - but who else was stronger?

I read a comment somewhere about SBS jumps being the deciding factor between the top teams in terms of placement. I would agree! For this reason I think the Canadian teams have the edge in the final - although it's all about how well they do on the day Peng/Wang need to put a 1A or 1T in their combo and things might have turned out differently for them.

B/G were likely lift levels away from winning their own tiebreaker. They've done a great job in such a short space of time!
Europeans will be most exciting!

 

[zebobes]

I am also not a huge fan of S-D/D.

We all can have different taste, but it is rather strange to swap out the top qualifier because of a matter of taste. P/M would make more sense if you merely wanted more representation in regards to countries.

I'm sad that P/W didn't make the GPF, so that China could have at least one local representative, but I guess they need a little more time to gel technically. Artistically, I would argue they are second only to S-D/D at the moment, and I'm excited to see them improve, but I'm worried that some of Peng's technical problems have been there for years, so fixing it will be no simple matter.

 

[lariko]

We all can have different taste, but it is rather strange to swap out the top qualifier because of a matter of taste. P/M would make more sense if you merely wanted more representation in regards to countries.

Yeah, but I really love P/M. They are the only pair that shows speed and attack I love in pairs atm...so I would trade the top qualifier, yup. Challenger>old champs, always.

 

[lariko]

You can't wait for the Russians to get back, yet you prefer diverse countries to be represented in pairs on the GPF. Do you realize how contradictory that sounds.

No, it is not contardictory: if we can't have Russians, I want all different ones, as a single visible positive consequence of Russian removal from competition. And, if Russians come back, which I don't believe is ever going to happen anyway, idealy I want them to be represented, but not take more than 1-2 spots. It's likely not possible with the comparatively low level of international pairs, but a girl can dream, and in all other disciplines, I would have expected that to happen automatically (i believe that people who are sure that Russian senior women are going to be uber competitive again, are going to be dissappointed). In this hypothetical scenario of reinstatment, it would constitite a positive outcome of the removal.

But, not going to happen, Russians won't be back, so yeah, I was trying to find something I can support that resulted from their removal for 2 years. But so far things just went downhill in seniors, and I am getting bored with the ISUs direction.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I think the people criticising Hocke and Kunkel need need to accept that with the Grand Prix it can be luck of draw in terms of opponents. Arguably stronger skaters overall will sometimes be pushed out by those who got lucky in their assignments. That's just how it is. And to be honest, I thought they did deserve to beat the Canadian team in Texas. Sure, the Canadians won their next assignment- but they were better in France.


As for people wishing the Russians back.. yes, they are strong in Pairs but having looked at some of the protocols from the Cup of Russia/Grand prix, even very strong teams are making some big mistakes and if they competed internationally with skates like that they would not be receiving the scores they are getting domestically. I think they are going to be in for a shock when they do come back, considering just how good some of the new teams already are and the increasing quality from teams who've been around a bit longer. It was easier for certain Russian teams to shine during the pandemic- the level of competition was lower. The stricter covid regs in other countries meant many established teams were restricted in their training. And as for trying out and forming new teams? It just couldn't happen.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I'm really happy Ghilardi and Ambrosini made the final as I really like their programs this year! They know the side by side jumps can be an issue but they really make up for it with their lifts and quality presentation. Also really like the Dutch team's free skate. They look like they might be not far off finally putting it all together in one competition.

Laurin and Ethier weren't perfect, but I think they're looking stronger than their likely rivals for the third Canadian World spot at the moment.

The German team were just brilliant. Their progress this season is really impressive.

 

[chuckm]

Just for the record: the Hungarian Pairs team is two skaters who were born in Russia and train there, as well. The great majority of the "Hungarian" skaters who competed in the GP/JGP are Russian.