2023 WTT takeaways?

[4everchan]

BTW, looking at the WTT page on wiki reminded that, until 2013, scores earned for each segment were added together like in a normal competition. Thus, each entry would get ONE score only for the team points... The top skater would only earn 12 points... and the last skater, 1 point... Since 2015, each segment SP, RD, LP, FD) earns point for the team. A strong skater can add 24 points, while the weakest link, only 2. So what was a 11 point advantage has become a potential 22 point advantage... Of course, this can be even bigger if a country has two top skaters versus one that doesn't.
However, for dance and pairs, until 2013, top teams would earn their country 12 points, weakest team 7... Differential 5... now it's 24 and 14, differential 10. It really shows how potent a strong single skater is compared to the top dance/pair team.

Trivia, since the new rules, Canada has never won a medal at WTT, yet has won gold at the 2018 Olympic team event.

 

[4everchan]

Here you go. With this kind of prize money, I'm tempted to run out and get a pair of skates and see if they'll let me participate!!!!

1st placed team: US$ 200’000
2nd placed team: US$ 170’000
3rd placed team: US$ 160’000
4th placed team: US$ 150’000
5th placed team: US$ 140’000
6th placed team: US$ 130’000

Well, if you compete in dance or pairs, you would even earn 14 points over the two programs for just being there.. Which is more than any one of the Canadian single skaters (Maddie earned 13 points in total, and Keegan 12)

 

[Arriba627]

I really enjoyed the Men's Event. Loved Jun's programs this season and happy to see him on an upward trajectory. Nice to see Matteo close out the season on a high note. Jason's skating and captain's enthusiasm made me smile. Ilia seemed to be drinking it all in and having a great time. Bravo to Shun Sato for coming through! I understand he was skating with new boots. When I saw Stephen Gogolev win the 2018 Jr. GPF in Vancouver, I remember thinking Canada could possibly have its next Patrick Chan. Sorry to see him still struggling with his massive growth spurt. Sorry (but maybe relieved too?) to hear Adam was coping with a foot injury. At least that explains why he was struggling so much with his jumps -- so many off-axis and breaking at the waist. Hope he can heal over the summer. No Keegan! Don't go!!!! I missed Shoma.

I couldn't imagine a season without the Russian pairs but was happy to see others rise to the occasion. I will miss Alexa. Will Brandon pair up with a new partner? Will they possibly go another season and train at the rink in the Chicago area where Chris is now working? Bravo Deanna and Max! I hope Riku and Ryuichi's success will encourage pairs skating in Japan. They are a joy to watch.

Loved how the audience was SO behind Kana & Daisuke. Loved their POTO. Do they have a couple more seasons in them?!...Haein Lee is a new favorite for me. In my dreams, I see Isabeau charging / flying into her jumps instead of slowing down and hesitating.

Definite high points -- The phenomenal Japanese audience with their cheers, support, clapping to the music, and flags. Loved seeing the skaters cheer for each other. Keegan's wife's surprise message was so touching. The skating community's support and love for Todd Sand brought me to tears...I enjoyed the competition much more than I thought I would -- crazy wigs, glasses, and all.

 

[Mathman]

if you compete in dance or pairs, you would even earn 14 points over the two programs for just being there..)

It's a little misleading to put it that way, though. "You" (the pairs or dance competitor) does not earn anything just for being there (except a guaranteed share of $130,000). Rather, the scoring system starts by giving each national team 28 points, then they go on from there. It would be the same if they started the scoring at 1000 before any skaters take the ice.

Sort of like those old pro "competitions" where every skater starts at 9.6 and then somebody gets 10.0 to beat the guy with 9.9 -- but loses to the guy who the judges are so ecstatic about that they give him a 10.1 on a scale of 0 to 10.

 

[4everchan]

It's a little misleading to put it that way, though. "You" (the pairs or dance competitor) does not earn anything just for being there (except a guaranteed share of $130,000). Rather, the scoring system starts by giving each national team 28 points, then they go on from there. It would be the same if they started the scoring at 1000 before any skaters take the ice.

Sort of like those old pro "competitions" where every skater starts at 9.6 and then somebody gets 10.0 to beat the guy with 9.9 -- but loses to the guy who the judges are so ecstatic about that they give him a 10.1 on a scale of 0 to 10.

First of all, it's simply a joke. I jumped in following @Arriba627 's statement. Second, it's not really misleading. The scoring system, being what it is, means that the lowest ranked dance or pair participants earn 7 points per segment... While the lowest single skater earns 1 point per segment... What is misleading, is the scoring system which doesn't consider dance and pair teams as "impactful" as the singles discipline. I know it's just a fun competition. I know skaters have fun and gain substantial money. As a fan, I like it too because more skating of that caliber, more pleasure to me. However, I don't mind calling it the way it is.

Here is my point and let's move on :

If it's a team event, it would be nice that all members of a team can contribute with the same impact.

In a 4X100 meter race, every one of the 4 runners races the same distance and has the "same potential impact" within the team... Usain Bolt doesn't get to run longer... Usain Bolt doesn't get to run twice... If there is a 4th runner on the Jamaican team that is not as good.. then too bad for Usain Bolt

I am a huge fan of all the disciplines of skating. I know some prefer singles. I love it all, even synchro. Since the team event appeared at the Olympics in 2014, we see more and more countries trying to qualify in all disciplines... For instance, Korea worked hard to make sure they could participate in home games in 2018. If the WTT organizers kept the fun but evened out a bit more the scoring system, in order to bring a better balance in the impact each discipline has on the final score, I believe that it would simply send the message to federations to keep developing pairs and dance.

I am not so sure why what I am saying is so challenging... I simply wish for all 4 disciplines to have the same impact, because I sincerely believe that it may promote the pairs and dance disciplines in nations where it's pretty non-existing. Figure skating is already a niche sport.... it's like dance and pairs are a niche within a niche...

 

[TontoK]

Y'all are putting too much thought into this. And I get it, because we all obsessed (in a good way) with the sport. But aside from the money and exposure in Japan, it really doesn't matter.

My advice on another thread (before the comp) still holds true: It's not a serious event. Enjoy the skating, but don't place a lot of importance on the competition.

PS. I just randomly checked a bunch of skaters' social media accounts. Not a single profile lists WTT Champion or WTT Medalist among their accolades. Of course, someone will go check ALL of them and find one, but the point is I don't think they particularly care.

 

[4everchan]

Y'all are putting too much thought into this. And I get it, because we all obsessed (in a good way) with the sport. But aside from the money and exposure in Japan, it really doesn't matter.

My advice on another thread (before the comp) still holds true: It's not a serious event. Enjoy the skating, but don't place a lot of importance on the competition.

PS. I just randomly checked a bunch of skaters' social media accounts. Not a single profile lists WTT Champion or WTT Medalist among their accolades. Of course, someone will go check ALL of them and find one, but the point is I don't think they particularly care.

you are correct... but you know... i am a passionate type... Conrad doesn't get selected for WTT? I should be ... meh... who cares... ? it's a fluff event... Dance and pairs don't get meaningful scores at WTT... I should also be ... meh... who cares ?

But in the end, I care and well... I think by now, y'all know that I care There are bigger problems within figure skating... that's for sure. But, once every two years, I don't mind addressing this one Maybe it's simply because I watched in the middle of the night and would find it even more fun if the scoring worked differently... so I could justify staying up all night

I am going to go check if I can get busy in some other thread for now

 

[TontoK]

Conrad doesn't get selected for WTT? I should be ... meh... who cares... ?

I will admit that this pokes at my "devil may care" attitude about this.

I still haven't heard why Gogolev was in and Conrad was out. I've wondered if that was Conrad's choice, considering his equipment issues.

Even if Skate Canada decided to go with someone other than Conrad (and it wasn't his choice to miss it), why Gogolev? I mean why not Wesley?

Money is one of the points where I considered it DOES matter. I don't like to kick a man when he's down, but Steven just pocketed a pretty good paycheck for two pretty awful performances. It wasn't his placement so much as it was the product.

Unrelated: According to Ashley Wagner, the federations (well, USFSA for sure) takes a cut of that prize money, and the remainder is equally distributed by person. So one-half of a dance team earns the same as a singles skater. I don't have a problem with that, but I also wonder how much each fed is "taxing" the winnings.

 

[Arriba627]

Slightly OT but happened to come across this photo of Stephen Gogolev from 2019. In the article, he is described as 14-year old, pint sized Stephen Gogolev who weighs 90 pounds. Yikes! I guess he has had a slight growth spurt. Wishing all the best for him.

https://images.thestar.com/wYrEqqk8RYvzoi8Oe5-K-o7_Igk=/1200x879/smart/filters:cb(2700061000):format(webp)/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/skating/2019/01/19/nguyen-back-on-top-at-canadian-figure-skating-championships/podium_nguyen.jpg

 

[16Olympics]

Slightly OT but happened to come across this photo of Stephen Gogolev from 2019. In the article, he is described as 14-year old, pint sized Stephen Gogolev who weighs 90 pounds. Yikes! I guess he has had a slight growth spurt. Wishing all the best for him.

https://images.thestar.com/wYrEqqk8RYvzoi8Oe5-K-o7_Igk=/1200x879/smart/filters:cb(2700061000):format(webp)/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/skating/2019/01/19/nguyen-back-on-top-at-canadian-figure-skating-championships/podium_nguyen.jpg

He's grown quite a bit, changed coaches and training facilities. His talent hasn't caught up to his growth spirt. He's young, though. He did have a good fs this year that was memorable because he was so low in the sp that his free brought him up to 4th or 5th place. Maybe CA nationals? I've been waiting for him to hit a good year. With him at Ilia's training camp with Raf, don't know if he'll get the attention. He's one guy that it hurts to watch him after he skates. He was a phenom with Orser. But, growth happens.

 

[icewhite]

The pandemic is definitely one factor. Not the only one but it's been mentioned by many athletes, coaches and commentators.

One of the other reasons given by Alain Goldberg, regarding women is that they were not pushed to go for harder content from the earlier ages. They would learn how to skate and then include jumps, while in other countries, harder technical content is taught from the beginning. This has finally changed in Canada with the very young kids starting the sport. He said that it will take about 10 years before our women catch up, as the new kids develop stable and harder content. In other words, the current generation will not yet be competitive, but the next one may be better. Sara-Maude, for instance, only 18, has shown on her instagram, 3axel in practice. I don't think I have seen other specimen of this jump in Canada (Alaine was trying it but I don't think she ever succeeded).

The triple triple combo was an oddity just a few years ago.. Now our skaters can do them regularly. Maddie's 3lz-3t is spectacular. She just recently learned the lutz btw... (when she first became National champion, it was her first season with the triple lutz)... In our junior division, I was amazed with how many more of 3-3 combos and harder triples were attempted/landed.

For men, it's hard to replace a guy like Patrick Chan. A few came up but grew taller... a few came up but got injured. Keegan managed to get to the top but he was never what I would personally call a contender for the worlds podium. Note how much shorter he is from all the other guys. It's pretty tough to jump quads at 185cms...

Then, there is the pressure. Canada has had world champions in all disciplines in the last ten years (Patrick last in 2013, Duhamel-Radford, Virtue-Moir and Kaetlyn Osmond). However, in singles, the internal pressure to keep spots after the greats retired have put a toll on the skaters... and that leads to the pressure of then earning a spot... I find our skaters often perform with nerves lately... and this is also why I mentioned the pandemic... Our skaters do not get out much (unlike Europeans in Challengers) and do not have much exposure to high stress events... we will have to wait and see how Skate Canada handles the situation.

If Mods want to switch these last few posts to the Skate of Nations, it may be more appropriate. Sorry for the off-topic.

I was going to dig a bit deeper, especially in the comparison with France and Italy, but I can't find the time right now. If I do, I will post it in another thread. I loved this piece I found while googling, though: Italy impresses with year-round ice skating facilities: Visiting one of the more than 20 ice rinks in the country is also high on the to-do list of many tourists.
I would guess that Canadians aren't that impressed by that number...

 

[Jammers]

Canada?
Piper and Paul did better at WTT than worlds.
Max and Deanna nearly beat the world bronze medalists (overall, they edged them in the SP).
The other skaters are not contenders.
No idea why Gogolev was chosen. He's popped jumps all year long.
Keegan is just Keegan... he rarely skates two clean programs back to back.
Maddie has been having issues all year too... Her SP was stellar, beating Isabeau on TES is quite something.
Sara-Maude has very little experience and she wasn't expected to do much better than this.

If you mean the team ranking? It's pretty much where I expected them to finish (I had put them in 5th but in the best case scenario). Camada finished last in 2021 as well. The reality though, is that Canada is still on the low of the cycle. 2018 was the peak of Canadian skating. After that, many people retired. However, with Covid, Canadian skaters were locked out of rinks for the longest period of time. Nobody was training nor competing nor traveling. Even before 2022's games... very few skaters were getting out. This is the first year that looks a bit normal for the athletes, but then, very few were given assignments. It is a factor for the younger skaters who have had very little exposure to high level competition. Sara-Maude hasn't been out much ... Fiona hasn't been out in seniors, so much that she had to stay home as she didn't have 4CC minimums... Gabby is injured.. no idea if she will ever come back...

Where it matters :
Canada at worlds, 3rd and 5th in dance, 4th and 6th in pairs... Keegan 7th... I don't think it's all bad...

I don't think WTT rankings can be a reflection of Canadian skating at any time....
The last time Canada earned a medal was 10 years ago... A silver and it took this all-star team to achieve it
Patrick Chan
Kevin Reynolds
Gabrielle Daleman
Kaetlyn Osmond
Meagan Duhamel / Eric Radford
Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje

Skate Canada really did their athletes dirty by canceling not just Skate Canada and not running it like a domestic event like the other hosts of the GP did but also canceling Canadian Nationals. They had time to figure out a plan to host Nationals if they really wanted to.

 

[yesterday]

Skate Canada really did their athletes dirty by canceling not just Skate Canada and not running it like a domestic event like the other hosts of the GP did but also canceling Canadian Nationals. They had time to figure out a plan to host Nationals if they really wanted to.

Yeah, SC and the first 1,5(?) years of pandemic is rather "better safe and sorry"..

 

[Colonel Green]

Skate Canada really did their athletes dirty by canceling not just Skate Canada and not running it like a domestic event like the other hosts of the GP did but also canceling Canadian Nationals. They had time to figure out a plan to host Nationals if they really wanted to.

Cancelling one event does not make much difference. Nor, with the quarantine protocols in effect in most of the country, would hosting an in-person competition have been feasible at the time. If it was allowed at all, it would have required the athletes to isolate for weeks without any training facilities, rather negating the purpose of hosting nationals.

 

[4everchan]

Skate Canada really did their athletes dirty by canceling not just Skate Canada and not running it like a domestic event like the other hosts of the GP did but also canceling Canadian Nationals. They had time to figure out a plan to host Nationals if they really wanted to.

Some of it was Skate Canada but most of it was just the provinces (health is dictated by the provincial governments) ... rules were pretty strict for a while...and it was not possible to hold any events

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

BTW, looking at the WTT page on wiki reminded that, until 2013, scores earned for each segment were added together like in a normal competition. Thus, each entry would get ONE score only for the team points... The top skater would only earn 12 points... and the last skater, 1 point... Since 2015, each segment SP, RD, LP, FD) earns point for the team. A strong skater can add 24 points, while the weakest link, only 2. So what was a 11 point advantage has become a potential 22 point advantage... Of course, this can be even bigger if a country has two top skaters versus one that doesn't.
However, for dance and pairs, until 2013, top teams would earn their country 12 points, weakest team 7... Differential 5... now it's 24 and 14, differential 10. It really shows how potent a strong single skater is compared to the top dance/pair team.

Trivia, since the new rules, Canada has never won a medal at WTT, yet has won gold at the 2018 Olympic team event.

It's almost as though Japan has been historically strong in singles and weaker in pairs/ID but wanted to still be competitive to win the trophy.

Some great skates in this event although I really hate how records are part of this event. It's a fluff event and the judging is incredibly lenient, with PBs handed out left right and centre (especially thought SK/F and M/K were really overscored, especially in the FS, and I like those teams - I mean a PB for SK/F by 3.5 points with a fall?! beating their previous best PCS of 71.49 with 74.16?! - way to overcorrect on not trying to be too biased towards M/K, Japan, lol... and of course C/B's records, while great skates, were definitely fluffed up by the judges... that isn't the best FD ever by a long stretch). I thought the men did pretty well for the end of the season... SP PCS was particularly high - Fa got a PB PCS with a fall, and Tomono essentially tied his - Malinin was slightly overscored too but the elements were superb. The FS was a bit messy but still some great elements, and the performances were there (although again the judges were lenient).

I get that this is a fun event (and love the team spirit), and I'm here for end-of-season performances (even a send-off 10.00 for Keegan, in spite of multiple errors, lol), but this was bordering on Mordavian Ornament level generosity for how what we come to expect from Japan and what we come to expect from performances that are awarded scores like that.

 

[Arriba627]

He's grown quite a bit, changed coaches and training facilities. His talent hasn't caught up to his growth spirt. He's young, though. He did have a good fs this year that was memorable because he was so low in the sp that his free brought him up to 4th or 5th place. Maybe CA nationals? I've been waiting for him to hit a good year. With him at Ilia's training camp with Raf, don't know if he'll get the attention. He's one guy that it hurts to watch him after he skates. He was a phenom with Orser. But, growth happens.

I have a family member who used to skate. He had a HUGE growth spurt one summer. His jumps got all screwed up, and his feet grew so much he said he felt like he was skating with someone else's feet! He tried to rework things and just got too frustrated and gave up. And he kept growing out of his skates so fast it was costing a fortune.

 

[4everchan]

I was going to dig a bit deeper, especially in the comparison with France and Italy, but I can't find the time right now. If I do, I will post it in another thread. I loved this piece I found while googling, though: Italy impresses with year-round ice skating facilities: Visiting one of the more than 20 ice rinks in the country is also high on the to-do list of many tourists.
I would guess that Canadians aren't that impressed by that number...

20 ice rinks? yeah.. Not impressed but glad to know it exists in Italy. France and Italy are sort of doing well with their men right now, but their best results are really coming at Euros. Keegan did well enough at 4CC too you know.. Many thought he did enough to win it. Kevin and Matteo did skate well at WTT indeed..... but until very recently, Italian men were MIA. I remember there was a very good looking one... but I cannot even remember his name... that says it all. Italian women : I wouldn't say they did very well at WTT, words nor Euros. French women, not very strong either. So I am not sure what we should discuss but I'm intrigue so please open up that thread

 

[4everchan]

It's almost as though Japan has been historically strong in singles and weaker in pairs/ID but wanted to still be competitive to win the trophy.

Some great skates in this event although I really hate how records are part of this event. It's a fluff event and the judging is incredibly lenient, with PBs handed out left right and centre (especially thought SK/F and M/K were really overscored, especially in the FS, and I like those teams - I mean a PB for SK/F by 3.5 points with a fall?! beating their previous best PCS of 71.49 with 74.16?! - way to overcorrect on not trying to be too biased towards M/K, Japan, lol... and of course C/B's records, while great skates, were definitely fluffed up by the judges... that isn't the best FD ever by a long stretch). I thought the men did pretty well for the end of the season... SP PCS was particularly high - Fa got a PB PCS with a fall, and Tomono essentially tied his - Malinin was slightly overscored too but the elements were superb. The FS was a bit messy but still some great elements, and the performances were there (although again the judges were lenient).

I get that this is a fun event (and love the team spirit), and I'm here for end-of-season performances (even a send-off 10.00 for Keegan, in spite of multiple errors, lol), but this was bordering on Mordavian Ornament level generosity for how what we come to expect from Japan and what we come to expect from performances that are awarded scores like that.

Yup.. the money and the SBs... that's what bugs me... The money... oh well.. BUT the SBs have an incidence on future ISU assignments and that is very unfair to the skaters not "invited" by their participating fed and those who do not simply qualify... At least, anyone can sign up to compete at the Mordavian Ornament

 

[TontoK]

I keep hearing a lot of griping about C/B's "World Records."

Didn't the ice dance rules/requirements change this year? They're not skating the same kinds of programs with the same scoring elements as P/C, V/M, D/W did in the past.

An ice dance "world record" essentially means "best score this season." Or am I missing something?

For the record, I thought both programs were marvels, and I didn't like either of them early in the season. (See my takeaways on the first page of this thread.)