2024-25 Senior Grand Prix Final Men's Free Skate

[Isk]

As someone who loves Shun's FS music and have added it to my Spotify playlist, I also recognize that the cut of it actually does not translate to a great skating program. The climax is in the step sequence, but the music is almost too fast for him to really bring out the emotion and for it to be satisfying for the audience. He's stuck trying to do complex steps instead of highlighting the highs and lows of the music, as you say. I do think he did a much better job at GPF compared to COC, where it really felt kind of boring.

Right, I didn't mean to say anything bad about Shun (or his music!). I actually like him and how he develops. I am sure he can do more, in a way what's happening is not his fault. Kids who can both skate and jump, and have the skill to perform quality choreography if it payed off, are forced to abandon this route and focus on jumping. It's unfortunate really. The other day, I read an interview with Ari Zakarian, in which he complained about the tech. panel calling Ilia's UR's and q's. I was thinking to myself that thanks to what's been happening during the past few years, there is already an imbalance in scoring and a lack of variety and quality in programs compared to 2000s and 2010s, and now he suggests that tech. mistakes should be forgiven.

 

[Isk]

I don't know what actually made him change it. He got rid of the "Mothers better lock your doors and hide your daughters" line, but the "I can lure any woman that I want to in my bed with me. Whiskey seems to be my holy water" lines are very much intact.

Two seasons ago I thought it couldn't get worse than "Hey Lord, I'm tired", "this world is done with me" and "I don't wanna win".

 

[cailuj365]

I categorically do not pay any attention to Ari Zakarian. Usually when Ari puts out a crazy interview, Ilia has another one of his own that is much more tempered.

This is the interview Ilia gave after GPF (translation):

— After the performance, when you saw the score breakdown, what were your first feelings?
— I was a little surprised because some of them were a little strict and tough. But they are judges and you just have to accept it. Such a decision pushes you to improve the quality, to work so that there is no possibility of lowering the marks for this next time. As I said, this was a kind of test program to see what I needed to improve and how much, including in terms of endurance. I need to work on this to have a successful program. Of course I was nervous before trying it in competition, but now that it's over I've really learned a lot. And when I come back I'll work on a few things to make it easier for me.
...
— Do you feel that figure skating is gaining popularity, including thanks to you?
— I think figure skating is growing in popularity in general, and I’m happy about that. My goal as a skater, like the other guys, is to try to make a contribution. Adam did a somersault last year, Mikhail Shaidorov did a combo this year. It’s motivation for everyone, it allows them to enjoy the sport. Plus, moments like these bring out their uniqueness, and that again brings more attention to figure skating.

Very mature answers.

 

[Isk]

I do. It's Ari who has influence with the ISU and not Ilia. "They are judges, you just have to accept it." Same thing, side view. Sounds like they mistreated him, implies that they were too strict. Combo as a contribution can be agreed with, but somersaults is not the reason to watch the sport, or else it would be better to watch trampoline jumping, they do them a lot better. And what's unique about a somersault if two guys do them. A number of people have done them in the past: Robin Cousins, Suria Bonaly, Ryan Bradley off the top of my head. Anyway, I used up my monthly grumbling allowance, sorry about it.

 

[cailuj365]

Again, I really do not care what Ari Zakarian says. It's better for my mental health to just ignore him. I care more about how the skater is going to respond, and I don't think it sounds like he thinks he has been mistreated. It's not like he's appealing the scores. They were strict and tough, but he did not say they were wrong. He accepts it, moves on, and will work for it to not happen again. What else did you want him to say?

And I'm sorry to tell you that the audience likes seeing backflips on ice right now. Listen to the crowd any time it happens, and it is still fairly rare. Only 1-2 skaters are doing it in the senior ranks. It's also currently still a bit of a novelty as before Adam, we had not seen backflips in competition since Surya Bonaly, which was over 25 years ago. There are people who are watching figure skating now who were not alive when Surya Bonaly competed. To them, it's new.

 

[Isk]

Again, I really do not care what Ari Zakarian says. It's better for my mental health to just ignore him. I care more about how the skater is going to respond, and I don't think it sounds like he thinks he has been mistreated. It's not like he's appealing the scores. They were strict and tough, but he did not say they were wrong. He accepts it, moves on, and will work for it to not happen again. What else did you want him to say?

And I'm sorry to tell you that the audience likes seeing backflips on ice right now. Listen to the crowd any time it happens, and it is still fairly rare. Only 1-2 skaters are doing it in the senior ranks. It's also currently still a bit of a novelty as before Adam, we had not seen backflips in competition since Surya Bonaly, which was over 25 years ago. There are people who are watching figure skating now who were not alive when Surya Bonaly competed. To them, it's new.

What can I say, it's great. I used up my grumbling allowance, so I'll agree with everything everyone says. Of course people are, we haven't seen this stuff for like 30 years, and if I were not alive when Surya did it, I'd be thrilled too. But alas, I was not only alive but old enough to go to the rink by myself. Still, not unique. And it's not the reason, we, old hags, watch the sport. BTW, those who were't alive when Surya did it, miss a lot by not watching what happened back then and since then. Cheers.

 

[cailuj365]

We'll say that it's unique within the last 25-30 years on competitive ice. Not that these skaters are the first, not that they are the only, but that they bring a feature that people have not seen in competition for a very long time. It is a contribution, not a replacement, to the other aspects of competitive figure skating.

 

[Isk]

We'll say that it's unique within the last 25-30 years on competitive ice. Not that these skaters are the first, not that they are the only, but that they bring a feature that people have not seen in competition for a very long time. It is a contribution, not a replacement, to the other aspects of competitive figure skating.

Yes, exactly. I think we will see more backflips, and it's fine, as long as it is not a replacement for edge-work, choreography phrased to music, good technique, choreo refinement (oh, forget it ), interesting music choices. Only, I have to correct us: Ryan Bradley was within the last 15 years, not 25-30. But backflips actually were not allowed in competition since 1977 (almost 50 years), so he couldn't do them on competitive ice, but people could still do them in shows. Surya did one in 1998 in a competition program only as an act of defiance, but she and others did do them in ex's and in shows. So that you do believe me , here is an example of Robin Cousin doing one in 1991: https://youtu.be/FfcVJLcknrk?si=B35rhQUvs2QZ_eJ_&t=150
Just be sure to watch everything else. I am not sure Ilia would honestly be able to skate this program, although he can sure jump a lot better. Question is: how much is this guy supposed to get in PCS if Ilia gets 10s?

 

[museksk8r]

What can I say, it's great. I used up my grumbling allowance, so I'll agree with everything everyone says. Of course people are, we haven't seen this stuff for like 30 years, and if I were not alive when Surya did it, I'd be thrilled too. But alas, I was not only alive but old enough to go to the rink by myself. Still, not unique. And it's not the reason, we, old hags, watch the sport. BTW, those who were't alive when Surya did it, miss a lot by not watching what happened back then and since then. Cheers.

Right on! I’m also an old time fan who remembers the likes of Rory Flack-Burghart, Scott Hamilton, Brian Orser, Surya Bonaly, and Philippe Candeloro performing backflips during the ‘90s. Terry Kubicka from the U.S. was the first figure skater to successfully execute a legal backflip at the 1976 Winter Olympics. The backflip comprises what, like 2 seconds of a skating program though. The maneuver is what skaters and skating fans mean when they say “tricks”. Speaking of extraordinary tricks, Gary Beacom’s skating was full of them. He would stand on his head, perform a pivot on an insane back edge as if he was a singles pair skater, and he would perform the hammiest, most avant-garde programs you’ve ever seen. The judges weren’t ready for him and didn’t always get him, but he was always a crowd pleaser for sure.

 

[el henry]

Some of us were alive when backflips were legal in competition and saw (on TV) Terry Kubicka do one on Olympic ice.

Fans love the tricks, they love them more than revolutions and combos and all the other good stuff that casuals don't understand. If Jason could get credit for his Russian splits and do four in row on competitive ice the crowd would go crazy. Andrew with more of his own flying butterfly and hitch kicks. Ina Bauers. Spirals. Spins. Ilia and his tricks.

I would love to see Ilia and all the skaters incorporate more of these, and drop a few of the jumps (I don't blame them at all now because the scoring encourages Jumpy McJumpface programs). That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the bravado and the beauty of the jumps or that I hate Ilia. It means that, in my experience spicing it up with more tricks and less jumps would excite people more.

For me, that (and all the other good non jump stuff combined with well executed jumps) makes figure skating exciting and relevant and fun. In the US, if you ask a random person on the street about quads and jumps, they will just as soon think you are talking Saquon Barkley as Ilia Malinin (I have even seen social media randos call Saquon the Quad God. IYKYK.) And that's what they'll watch.

Just in my experience and that of my little cousin, of course.

 

[Isk]

And I remember Brasseur and Eisler do cool tricks in pairs. The new judging system in a way is quite a bit more restrictive, isn't it? I don't blame skaters either. There is no denying we've seen some cool skating and programs in the last couple of decades, but the popularity was still dropping. And it's interesting to think that some of the best skaters under the new system learned to skate under the old system. Paradoxes that I've been struggling to understand. Thanks for sharing your opinions, this helps. And tells me that Ari's view is not correct.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

the over the top gushing from Mark and Ted for a mistake riddled performance (while nit picking a couple other skaters).

Watching the senior mens event, i found myself thinking "wow, Mark Hanretty's really got it in for Daniel Grassl". It's like he has some other issue with him and he let that influence his commentary, which made him sound rather like one of those anti fans on another site/twitter. Perhaps he needs to get off social media for a while- he's been getting a little mean of late (even during the JGP he had his moments).

I don't really like Grassl's skating, and he does have underrotations, but a commentator should at least try to be fair. Malinin had a very flawed skate, but you wouldn't have known it by the way they were talking. It was really unprofessional.

 

[gsk8]

Watching the senior mens event, i found myself thinking "wow, Mark Hanretty's really got it in for Daniel Grassl". It's like he has some other issue with him and he let that influence his commentary, which made him sound rather like one of those anti fans on another site/twitter. Perhaps he needs to get off social media for a while- he's been getting a little mean of late (even during the JGP he had his moments).

What did Mark say that was so bad?

In the short, Mark pointed out how much his extensions have improved. In the FS, he gave him kudos after doing so well after being off the ice for 10 months. In fact, he even went as far as to defend Grassl from the posters who trolled him online.

What exactly did Mark say that was negative that would make you think he's "got it in" for him?

 

[cailuj365]

Only, I have to correct us: Ryan Bradley was within the last 15 years, not 25-30. But backflips actually were not allowed in competition since 1977 (almost 50 years), so he couldn't do them on competitive ice, but people could still do them in shows. Surya did one in 1998 in a competition program only as an act of defiance, but she and others did do them in ex's and in shows.

Yes, that's why I said competitive figure skating. If we want to remember back flips in shows, we only have to look as far back as Nathan Chen and Keegan Messing, not even the 1990s or 2010s. Back flips have been here forever, just not seen in competition since Surya.

It's almost a good thing (well, not really) that Adam was not here, because this meant that there was only 1 backflip out of 96 skates at JGPF/GPF this week, and it happened in the final moments of the very last skate. With Adam, it would definitely have not been as "unique." We would have seen 3 within the senior men alone. It has to be used sparingly for it to be interesting and effective, or else, it's just not special. I think that is also why we see Ilia doing a layout stepout variation of the backflip so that it looks different from Adam's. I wonder how it will go down at Worlds where we should hopefully see both of them in the final flight. I'm not sure if I can handle back-to-back backflips.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Watching the senior mens event, i found myself thinking "wow, Mark Hanretty's really got it in for Daniel Grassl". It's like he has some other issue with him and he let that influence his commentary, which made him sound rather like one of those anti fans on another site/twitter. Perhaps he needs to get off social media for a while- he's been getting a little mean of late (even during the JGP he had his moments).

I don't really like Grassl's skating, and he does have underrotations, but a commentator should at least try to be fair. Malinin had a very flawed skate, but you owouldn't have known it by the way they were talking. It was really unprofessional.

Oh please. Grassl is a proven doping violator. Not once. Not twice. But thrice. I could possibly forgive it if he ever had one pointed toe or stretched position or could land a quadruple without a cheated landing. The long program is a disgrace. Mark was more than charitable in his comments.

However, I do agree Mark and Ted were gushing too much for Malinin's flawed long program.