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2025 Worlds: Women's thoughts and comments
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There's a lot I could say about the technical panel, or the placements, but I'm going to discuss costumes!
**Beautiful But Needs Tweaking On Design and Color:
Madeline schizas long program, Wakaba higuchi long program, Julia Sauter long program, Lara naki Gutman long program, Ahsun Yun short program, haein lee long program
**Stunning, No Notes:
Nina pinzarrone long program, isabeau levito long program, mone chiba short program, Livia kaiser long program, alysa liu long program
**Boring: Amber Glenn long program, Kirsten Spours long and short programs
**I Get The Idea, But Not Executed Well:
sofia samodelkina long program, Ekaterina Kurakova long program, NiNi short program, Kimmy Repond long program, alysa liu short program, niina petrokina short program
**Beautiful But Needs Tweaking On Design and Color:
Madeline schizas long program, Wakaba higuchi long program, Julia Sauter long program, Lara naki Gutman long program, Ahsun Yun short program, haein lee long program
**Stunning, No Notes:
Nina pinzarrone long program, isabeau levito long program, mone chiba short program, Livia kaiser long program, alysa liu long program
**Boring: Amber Glenn long program, Kirsten Spours long and short programs
**I Get The Idea, But Not Executed Well:
sofia samodelkina long program, Ekaterina Kurakova long program, NiNi short program, Kimmy Repond long program, alysa liu short program, niina petrokina short program
I posted my initial impressions in the FS thread - but after a lot of deliberation, I made a last-second decision (literally as the event was about to begin) to go up to Boston to see all this play out once again. And I wasn’t disappointed…
I knew Liu had an outside shot at winning but honestly, I didn’t actually think it was going to happen! But the possibility factored into my decision to go…
Liu was great in both the SP and FS. The energy in the arena was surreal. And I’d say a large majority of the crowd stayed for the medal ceremony - which typically does not happen…that’s how you know it’s special!
Sakamoto was great as well, and I particularly enjoyed her FS. I thought she was going to win until Liu skated…in fact, all three Japanese skaters brought it that night. One of them was strangely scored lower than I would have expected…but, you know, at this point I don’t even care about that anymore…the scoring is what it is going to be and I get to see some really great, high-end skating.
Glenn, in my estimate, was the crowd favorite - at least initially. The crowd went absolutely nuts when she was announced in her SP group warmup. I wanted her to do well, but alas, the energy dissipated once she fell on her opening 3A. However, she showed tremendous resilience afterward and was solid from that point out. Levito did well coming back from injury, and despite her fall in the FS I think she hung in there quite well considering. Sending her over the other girl (sorry, don’t recall her name) was the right decision.
Lastly, there were several other skaters that had enjoyable performances as well. As someone who has been “out of the game” for many years, and these all being new faces to me, in a way it’s interesting to see how the competitive field evolves over the years.
I knew Liu had an outside shot at winning but honestly, I didn’t actually think it was going to happen! But the possibility factored into my decision to go…
Liu was great in both the SP and FS. The energy in the arena was surreal. And I’d say a large majority of the crowd stayed for the medal ceremony - which typically does not happen…that’s how you know it’s special!
Sakamoto was great as well, and I particularly enjoyed her FS. I thought she was going to win until Liu skated…in fact, all three Japanese skaters brought it that night. One of them was strangely scored lower than I would have expected…but, you know, at this point I don’t even care about that anymore…the scoring is what it is going to be and I get to see some really great, high-end skating.
Glenn, in my estimate, was the crowd favorite - at least initially. The crowd went absolutely nuts when she was announced in her SP group warmup. I wanted her to do well, but alas, the energy dissipated once she fell on her opening 3A. However, she showed tremendous resilience afterward and was solid from that point out. Levito did well coming back from injury, and despite her fall in the FS I think she hung in there quite well considering. Sending her over the other girl (sorry, don’t recall her name) was the right decision.
Lastly, there were several other skaters that had enjoyable performances as well. As someone who has been “out of the game” for many years, and these all being new faces to me, in a way it’s interesting to see how the competitive field evolves over the years.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Wait... what? How can a you pre-rotate a Lutz. The curve on the ice is in the opposite direction from the rotation in the air. The more you pre-rotate, the worse off you are.
It seems like the only way to pre-rotate a Lutz is to be on the wrong edge anyway. No?
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- Jun 21, 2003
Dick Button's tewo favorite skaters.
Actually, though, the flip was never Kwan;s most reliable jump and it let her down on some crucial occasions.But the double Axel, now we're on the right track. To me, the hallmark and sine qua non for this beautiful element is the edge control on the flow-out of the landing. (In fact, for me edge control is what figure skating is all about.). In a 2A+ combo, this is thrown out the window (although you do have to attain a sufficiently secure landing on the first jump to get off the second).
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Because her pick foot leaves the ice last. It and her hips are both past 180.
Right about that flip. I still have PTSD when I here Scheherazade. LolDick Button's tewo favorite skaters.
But the double Axel, mow we're on the right track. To me, the hallmark and sine qua non for this beautiful element is the edge control on the flow-out of the landing. (In fact, for me edge control is what figure skating is all about.). In a 2A+ combo, this is thrown out the window (although you do have to attain a sufficiently secure landing on the first jump to get off the second).
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One of the bullet points for positive GOE on jumps is "very good height and distance."
This is one of the mandatory bullet points, so no jump element should earn higher than +3 without it.
The other two mandatory points are "good takeoff and landing" and "effortless throughout." Speed in and out are part of what makes the takeoff and landing good but are not enough on their own to earn that bullet point.
Different judges might have different mental cutoffs for what constitutes "good" or "very good" -- they should each be consistent in their own judging.
But after a skater (or an individual element, because each skater will have different results on different jumps or on different executions of the same jump at different points of the program or on a different day) passes that cutoff in a judge's mind, it doesn't make a huge difference to the GOE whether the height and distance were just "very good" enough or remarkably outstanding, except insofar as the latter may make a stronger Wow impression that will also affect PCS to some degree.
Which is, therefore, good technique for the first jump of a combo. Most common in 3T+3T but would apply to any jump combination.
Was he arguing that jumping high without covering much horizontal distance was preferably technique to jumping out horizontally (or even both at once, which one would expect to be the best, especially for solo jumps)?
Of course Janet Lynn was doing double flips, and seemed to get just as much distance as height on those, which is a positive as I understand it.
Or was he talking about the body being straight in the air rather than the vertical or horizontal distance that it covered?
So you agree with me that longest and fastest are irrelevant. As long as you get good height and distance, thats enough for that bullet point. I was referring to the fact that the cheated technique most use now on lutz and flip makes the second jump easier because of the lower trajectory, hence better flow out. Since Michelle was doing a flip, I assume he was talking about the nice vertical trajectory that is the trademark of a properly executed flip or lutz. Unlike the low long trajectory many have. A proper one will have good distance as well, but the trajectory will be steeper, and the cheated technique can also have good height, but with lower trajectory.
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Is the first jump in this program a double flip?
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Janet Lynn was one of the first Ladies to have both a triple Salchow (age 13) and (later) a triple toe loop in her repertoire.
Speaking of Michelle Kwan, I notice that at 2025 Worlds all of the top ten ladies in the LP landed 7 triples (of varying quality). I wonder if Michelle still holds the record for doing 7 triples at the world championships six times in her career?
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Janet Lynn was one of the first Ladies to have both a triple Salchow (age 13) and (later) a triple toe loop in her repertoire.
Speaking of Michelle Kwan, I notice that at 2025 Worlds all of the top ten ladies in the LP landed 7 triples (of varying quality). I wonder if Michelle still holds the record for doing 7 triples at the world championships six times in her career?
Double salchowIs the first jump in this program a double flip?
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No, I wouldn't say it's irrelevant.
The bullet point is "very good height and distance." So just "good" would not earn it.
As I mentioned above, different judges might have different mental cutoffs for where they consider the height and distance "very good" vs. just "good." The jump that is higher and longer will more likely earn that bullet from more judges, leading to a somewhat higher GOE.
Also, a jump whose height and distance are not just very good but exceptional is more likely to have a wow factor that could have a more positive effect on PCS as well as GOE.
OK...
But among those combinations that do not use cheated technique, one that achieves good/very good height and distance is better technique than one that achieves good/very good height with less distance. And technique for first jumps of combos needs to be modified from what might be ideal for solo jumps.
Well, who knows what he meant. It's not like we can ask him.
What do you think of these lutzes? Not combinations, seem properly executed to me, and just as much distance as height to my eyes.
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Or even, if you want a combo and a female skater,
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Looking at the protocols, I don't see any reason for concern on the part of the Sakamoto camp. Comparing the top 4 in the LP,
Liu: base value 63.34, GOE 14.93. PCS 70.12
Sakamoto: 62.40, GOE 12.49 with a q and a <, PCS 72.06 (beating perfect storm Liu by 2 points, with a substantial advantage in skating skills)
Chiba: 62.18, GOE 11 11.35 with two ,<s, PCS 68.27
Glenn: 62.10, GOE 8.11, PCS 67.78
The only real takeaway for me is that small mistakes can be costly (and so can big mistakes in the short program). Skate-of -a-lifetime Alysa's only advantage over three-time word champion Kaori was the two rotation calls.
As for intangibles, the crowd at Boston was very enthusiastic and wowed over Kaori's performance, too.
Of course nothing is forever. It is possible that the bloom is off the Kaori rose these days, compared to the last couple of years. However, to me it is Amber who perhaps got a reality check after riding high this season. Even with the triple Axel boost in the LP and the home field advantage, she could not match the leaders overall, leaving her in the position that if she misses on the triple Axel she is out of contention but if she hits it there will still be others who have a chance to outpoint her.
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Yes, we were, which is what made Liu’s moment all that much more incredible.
Home pressure, in my view, can make or break those that have to deal with it. It was too much for Glenn, at least in the SP, but based on what I saw I don’t think fans of her have to worry about the future.
I’m not sure where Liu is going to go from here. She came in as a sort of underdog and stepped up to the plate; she was clearly enjoying herself…I don’t know if folks watching on TV got to see the warmup intros or the post-skate K&C interviews with Wagner/Ben Agosto, but she really is a character - I’ll say that much. But now she is World Champ. Will that joy persist, or will the pressure that pushed her into initial retirement return?
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Thank you. I have to confess that even if I had greater knowledge and experience, my eyesight is just not up the task any more. I will have to withdraw my application to become a tech specialist.
The two gentlemen were interesting. To me, Brian Boitano's seemed more "Lutzy," but it might just be the camera angle. (Boitano is coming toward the camera at take-off while Urmanov is shown from the side. Urmanov's jump seemed a model of smoothness and grace, to me. (Sorry @Tonto KWhat do you think of these lutzes? Not combinations, seem properly executed to me, and just as much distance as height to my eyes.
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Height, yes, but also distance.- YouTube
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)I believe that Midori Ito was more a power jumper than a finesse jumper. Her speed and distance were excellent here.
In fact, I think that the role of speed is not to be dismissed lightly even if it is not specifically mentioned as a bullet point for GOE. I don't think that a skater can achieve either "very good height" or "very good distance" without it. It seems like if you lack sufficient speed at take-off you will not be able to;e to translate that momentum into height, while for combinations you have to maintain enough horizontal speed to get off the second jump. Without speed you can only try to muscle up the jump by your leg muscles as opposed to taking advantage of skating technique.
For toe-pick jumps the trick is, so it seems to me, the timing and co-ordination of feet with upper body. I would conjecture that this is why beginners often get their edge jumps quicker, but at the elite level skaters have greater mastery on the toe-pick jumps -- which would explain why a quad Lutz is easier than a quad loop, for instance. (?)
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I think your numbers show that Kaori clean would only have a slight advantage. The last few years she generally has a huge advantage in both GOE and PCS. Her mistakes cost her about 3.5 pts in GOE and 4.5 overall, with little to no effect on PCS. Which means even completely clean here, Kaori might have still lost overall because of doubling the flip in the SP. I just don't think that is consistent with the last few years. Not that that's a bad thing, because I don't want competitions predetermined by PCS and GOE beforehand. And I agree about Amber. Coming into the event I thought Allysa was the main American threat simply because she is better under pressure than Amber and doesn't fall often.
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THIIIIS.I also wanted to add, being live for the FS was genuinely one of the best nights of my life. I love skating so much, and so many of the girls
the energy in that arena was infectious! i was blown away by how supportive and encouraging the audience was of EVERY skater, no matter how they did. it was like you could feel the excitement in the air especially the last couple groups, it was incredible! everyone was there because they LOVE figure skating.
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I gained immense respect for Kaori for her sportsmanship. It was nice to see. But yeah, I don't imagine seeing an Eteri skater rushing out to congratulate a skater who brought the house down, lol.but i just wanted to say : the camaraderie between Kaori and Alysa was delightful to watch. Kaori is a class act and Alysa was a very "good winner"
It was a breath of fresh air, and I hope this sort of friendship, respect and decency will be seen in Milano... it would be a change from the last three Olympics shenanigans
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- Jun 21, 2003
I have not followed the scoring details closely enough to have an opinion about this, but I will say that in general I do not completely buy into the "judges' darling" or "repuation" criticism of figre skating judging. No one is born with a reputation. A skater acquires a reputation by delivering outstanding performances time after time. As for "judges darlings," figure skating judges have a roving eye like the rest of us.
I think that this is especially true at the Olympics, which are figure skating's opportunity to showcase their sport to the world (as opposed to closed-shop events like ISU championships). Relative newcomer Tara Lipinski skated better than super-darling Michelle Kwan at the 1998 Olympics. In 2014 the judges had no problem awarding the title to Yuzuru Hanyu (just beginning to become known outside Japan) when three-time and defending world champion Patrick Chan did not skate his best. Nor was the Japanese Federation more politically influential that the Canadian at the time.
It is tue that in figure skating, as in any sport with a judging component, "a tie goes to the champion." After all, the champion became the champion by beating the old champion, so if you want to become the new champion, then you have to beat her.
Will Alysa get a champion's bounce going into next year? She will have to build up momentum throughout the fall season like everyone else. We'll see.
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