59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[Mathman]

No, PCS with its huge proration factor will strongly dominate with 6 jumping passes. Don't you understand math?

Evidently I ,missed something. Did they change the PSC factoring from 100% to 120%. I know tht such proposals have been made to keep an even balance between TES and PCS.

Actually, I do understand math. What I don't understand is figure skating scoring and judging

"I've seen IJS from both sides now
From up and down
But still somehow
Its IJS' illusions I recall
I really don't know IJS....at all."

 

[lariko]

you know... i am fine praising Ilia for everything he does well and very fine he won worlds. And I am fine with people calling his flaws because he is not the perfect skater. That's just it.
One last time, the new rules won't affect Ilia's results. Let's stop with the demagogy

They will punish him for his achievement and will nerf most of the athletes who do not have exceptional quad content (i.e. >3). Everyone with 1-2 quads will be burred under high-PCS non-quad skaters and in women, non-3A/non-quad skaters are already dominant anyway, and will be completely erased.

 

[Andrina]

Not with the GoE corrections and manipulations, otherwise Brown won't be so high in rankings with a popped double and no quads.

Brown is a phenomenon in terms of PCS. He doesn't have quads but his triples are very decent. All in all, he is a balanced skater.

Malinin jumps 4A but his technique in general is not exceptional. As for his PCS, it approaches zero. From a negative side.

One of these skaters is the world champion. The other one is not even on the podium. That's all we need to know about the existing scoring system.

 

[gkelly]

How long has there been 7 jumping passes in skating? Anyone know?

Before IJS, there was no limit on the number of jump elements in free skates, only on the number of repeat triples (or quads) and on the number of combinations/sequences. With minimums of those at some points.

IJS introduced the concept of maximum numbers of each type of element in free skates. At the beginning of IJS, the men's free skate was 4:30 ± 10 seconds and allowed for 8 jumping passes, originally with 2 combinations/sequences allowed and soon changed to 3 (which matched the most recent pre-IJS rules). Women's programs were 4:00 ± 10 and allowed 7 jumping passes.

There were originally 4 spins, and one step sequence and one leveled spiral sequence for women, two leveled step sequences for men.

Then one of the spins was removed, then the spiral sequence/second step sequence was changed to a choreographic sequence.

So already the non-jump technical content was reduced between 2005 and 2011.

A few years ago, the length of the men's (and pairs') free skate was reduced from 4:30 to 4:00. At that time, the number of jump passes allowed in the men's free skate was reduced from 8 to 7, to match the women's in both length and number of jump passes. Although the specific jumps being executed were different from the elite men.

 

[Karoltyna]

with one less jumping pass, Malinin may be able to show what he has other than fabulous jumping. It remains to be seen... but in your ideal world, Malinin would manage to do more with choreography with the added time and shut down the naysayers. I am waiting for it

I wouldn't say it's impossible. It's not like Ilia is bad skater, only didn't have to put an effort in other things than jumps. But maybe Adam decides that he doesn't need 4A and this wouldn't be bad.

 

[saine]

Just changing the subject, the things I am most interested in were dealt with last night, and I am not sure what happened with all of them.

Firstly, was last year's decision to bring back pre-qualifying for the Majors reversed? (It was stupid to even think of bringing it back in the first place! It doesn't shorten an event - it lengthens it!)

Secondly, what about the numbers going through to the Free in the Majors (particularly in regards the Pairs)? Did they reverse last year's decision to reduce them?

Thirdly, what was the decision over the start orders in the Free? Did they do the sensible thing and reverse last year's decision to scrap doing it as the reverse order of the results from the Short?

CaroLiza_fan

Qualifying Rounds were eliminated. The US and Czech delegates (next two host countries for Worlds) spoke in favour of the elimination due to the cost involved.

Numbers for Pairs were in the language for the Qualifying Rounds that were eliminated. It's now considered a drafting matter since the urgent proposals were made invalid with the elimination of the Qualifying Rounds.

Start orders were part of the package for Proposals 226-233. Belgium tried to remove them, but failed so it passed.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

 

[el henry]

Since we are bringing specific skaters into the discussion, although I agree that is not the intent of the rule change as I read them.

I think I can speak for at least some Jason fans . We never expected Jason to win world medals, (at least not since 2015), that's not the goal. Scoring that rewards what Jason does well is the goal. We are not Jason fans because we live in a cloud, because we are stuck in the past, or because we hate jumps. We are Jason fans because we adore what he does well and want to see more of it. Like any other fans.

But when Jason with a 90% clean skate places above quadsters who have skated not so well: that is sport. Being scored on what you bring to the ice, in total, on any given day: that is sport. In all kinds of sports, teams with poor records that play above expectations win against teams with great records that don't: that is sport. If we were to just count up BV of jumps, we might as well not have competitions.

Jason plays the numbers game as well as he can with the gifts he has, and that is the essence of sport: maximize what you do well and see how it places on any given Sunday, so to speak.

 

[Karoltyna]

Qualifying Rounds were eliminated. The US and Czech delegates (next two host countries for Worlds) spoke in favour of the elimination due to the cost involved.

Numbers for Pairs were in the language for the Qualifying Rounds that were eliminated. It's now considered a drafting matter since the urgent proposals were made invalid with the elimination of the Qualifying Rounds.

Start orders were part of the package for Proposals 226-233. Belgium tried to remove them, but failed so it passed.

Polish delegate almost made a happy dance on instagram regarding QR.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Qualifying Rounds were eliminated. The US and Czech delegates (next two host countries for Worlds) spoke in favour of the elimination due to the cost involved.

I thought that was the case. Good!

Numbers for Pairs were in the language for the Qualifying Rounds that were eliminated. It's now considered a drafting matter since the urgent proposals were made invalid with the elimination of the Qualifying Rounds.

So, the final decision has still to be made. I hope they don't go through with reducing it. The Frees for Pairs and Dance are too short as it is!

Start orders were part of the package for Proposals 226-233. Belgium tried to remove them, but failed so it passed.

So, does that mean we are going back to the reverse SP start order then, or not?

It isn't clear (to me anyway) from either the comment that was put up in the thread at the time, or from what you said there now.

Thank you so much for the reply.



CaroLiza_fan

 

[cailuj365]

So we lost not just a jumping pass, but a combo. Seems excessive. Solo jump would have been enough.

I think had Ilia not shown up 2 years ago and trounced all over his competitors with the 4A and 6 quads in March, no one would even care about these rule changes, and we'd all been like, yeah, great, better, balanced programs for everyone. But now that he does exist, there is somewhat of a loss here that may just be unique to him. Ilia's WR probably automatically becomes a historic record at this point, and it will not be matched for a long, long time. I actually wonder with the rule changes if perhaps Ilia will not even be able to show us his full technical potential over the next 2 years. I mean, if you all think that 137 TES was too much, this guy may have had the ability to do 150+, and we will likely never get a chance to see it. Instead, he can only jump a max TES of 115 or something now. Meh. I'll watch him next year, and during whatever choreography sequence he'll be doing, I'll know that he could have shown me an out-of-this-world jumping pass instead that perhaps only he could have done.

And on that note, goddamnit, did we just lose Ilia's signature ending 3Lz-3A? It was probably the most impressive jumping pass after his opening 4A!! Imagine having your last element try to be a 4T-4T just to try to improve on one's own technical ability from the year before... What an insane amount of pressure. I could still see him ending with the 3Lz-3A, which has essentially never failed him whereas the 4T-3T has gone awry plenty of times. And then, we'll be watching 4-5 quads in a free skate again, instead of 6-7, the next frontier that we were on the verge of getting to and was just snatched away!! Poor kid and his lofty dreams. Heh.

Good luck to all the skaters as they try to adapt to these new rules! Lol.

 

[saine]

So, the final decision has still to be made. I hope they don't reduce it.



So, does that mean we are going back to the reverse SP start order then, or not?

It isn't clear (to me anyway) from either the comment that was put up in the thread at the time, or from what you said there now.

Thank you so much or the reply.



CaroLiza_fan

Drafting matter means that it's considered a wording issue now. If they wanted to keep it at 16 without a vote, I'm sure there would have been some words from Israel and Great Britain.

Yes that means they're going back to reverse order from the SP. If they don't remove it from the package, it means it goes through.

 

[Karoltyna]

Now they will be rewarded and validated for being poor jumpers.

Adam Siao stated he is for the change. Would you brand him a poor jumper?

 

[lariko]

Brown is a phenomenon in terms of PCS. He doesn't have quads but his triples are very decent. All in all, he is a balanced skater.

Malinin jumps 4A but his technique in general is not exceptional. As for his PCS, it approaches zero. From a negative side.

One of these skaters is the world champion. The other one is not even on the podium. That's all we need to know about the existing scoring system.

Brown is nothing special in terms of PCS. I saw him live. He is just like at least another 3 or 4 skaters who for whatever subjective reason don't get the preferential treatment he does. His triple jumps are no longer even decent. They are obviously UR and have wrong edges that are not noted.

As for Malinin, his jumps exemplifies the high, effortless jumps with clear edges that are the textbook description of the figure skating jump. No, he doesn't squat when he lands like the Japanese. But he also gets more height and span than any Japanese, including Hanyu's 3A, that's why he is capable of landing 4A and Hanyu couldn't. Hence, his GoEs should be well over 3, because of the minor deduction for biometrics with his knees. He exceeds all the other bullet points.

 

[lariko]

Adam Siao stated he is for the change. Would you brand him a poor jumper?

So what if he is in favor? He got his backflip and I doubt he objected against that either. He doesn't have to watch programs with fewer jumping passes and less combos and more empty sections like I have to.

 

[Karoltyna]

So what if he is in favor? He also got his backflip and I doubt he objected against that either. He doesn't have to watch programs with fewer jumping passes and less combos and more empty sections.

Then just don't watch it. When women singles got boring, I stopped watching and came back when when they became interesting again. I think that skaters have better reasons to be for or against than we.

 

[Arigato]

Not at the expense of jumps.

Viewership, popularity and network deals in the USA were at their peak many years ago. People wanted to be entertained. They got it in spades. Athleticism and artistry are requirements. If you couldn't combine them in your programs, you sucked. We did not suck. Then. Boitano wasn't just a twirling pencil. He actually knew how to skate and it was a pleasure to see a guy with an athletic frame skate his ass off and get the height he got. It wasn't the total number or how many rotations that mattered, it was how he executed the jumps that mattered. I could watch his opening jump all. day. long. And it's not even a quad. His scores were all 10's. A perfect 50.




Where do you see an empty seat? You don't. But I saw plenty of empty seats at Montreal this year.

 

[4everchan]

Viewership, popularity and network deals in the USA were at their peak many years ago. People wanted to be entertained. They got it in spades. Athleticism and artistry are requirements. If you couldn't combine them in your programs, you sucked. We did not suck. Then. Boitano wasn't just a twirling pencil. He actually knew how to skate and it was a pleasure to see a guy with an athletic frame skate his ass off and get the height he got. It wasn't the total number or how many rotations that mattered, it was how he executed the jumps that mattered. I could watch his opening jump all. day. long. And it's not even a quad. His scores were all 10's. A perfect 50.




Where do you see an empty seat? You don't. But I saw plenty of empty seats at Montreal this year.

agree viewership has decreased drastically.
re montreal, what you saw on streaming or tv are the first few rows... those were very expensive tickets yet, still well sold... in the higher rows, those that never appeared on screens, it was quite packed... it was crazy out there. I loved the ambiance of the wild crowd... so i wouldn't say it was undersold... and keep in mind the size of the venue... largest hockey rink in all of North America.

 

[lariko]

Then just don't watch it. When women singles got boring, I stopped watching and came back when when they became interesting again. I think that skaters have better reasons to be for or against than we.

That is what I want to do, but i also want to support the skaters, because it's not their fault that ISU is dumb. Just like Zagitova did nothing wrong in 2018, neither did Malinin do anything wrong last March. In fact, they both did excellent, the best they had ever done, out of this world incredible and awe-inspiring.

But the consequences are stupid, useless changes that made their wonderful, breathtaking programs obsolete.

I don't know how to both support the athletes who brought such joy and give a middle finger to the ISU for destroying it with fire.

 

[lariko]

Viewership, popularity and network deals in the USA were at their peak many years ago. People wanted to be entertained. They got it in spades. Athleticism and artistry are requirements. If you couldn't combine them in your programs, you sucked. We did not suck. Then. Boitano wasn't just a twirling pencil. He actually knew how to skate and it was a pleasure to see a guy with an athletic frame skate his ass off and get the height he got. It wasn't the total number or how many rotations that mattered, it was how he executed the jumps that mattered. I could watch his opening jump all. day. long. And it's not even a quad. His scores were all 10's. A perfect 50.




Where do you see an empty seat? You don't. But I saw plenty of empty seats at Montreal this year.

what @4everchan said, plus factor in that in the 90s the entertainment options were fewer, streaming non-existent and, on top of it, Russians are no longer in international competitions which is a huge blow to entertainment value and splits focus between intl and Russian branches. Given all that, Montreal did great. i was there, and i didn't see any empty seats, except in blocked off areas.

I way, way prefer 2018-2022 skating to the way it was in 90s. Plushenko was the only skater from that era who was watchable when I tried looking at the period records. People are like, but look at this fantastic 30 seconds long spiral with dat smile on her rosy face! Aww, isn't it so pretty? And I'm like...seriously? You watched that? Voluntarily?