59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[saine]

Does this still mean there might be a chance that the proposal fails and there will still be 7 jumps in a FP?

I looked up the rules that cover voting on the technical rules in the ISU Constitution. Article 11, paragraph 2b):

Changes in the Technical Rules as proposed by the respective Technical Committee(s) and approved by the respective Sports Technical Directors, the respective Vice President and the Council and changes proposed by the Council are accepted unless an ISU Member during the Congress puts forward an objection and this objection obtains a simple majority of votes. Such objection may only be not to accept the proposed change in the Technical Rule(s) and it cannot propose any amendment. A Rule in the Technical Rules may not change or amend a Rule included in the Constitution or in the General Regulations or in the Special Regulations.

Since the objections to 239 and 240 failed, they remain in the package and will pass. 241 and 245 are up for vote tomorrow, but if they're removed then it'll make the package a mess.

Backflips no longer being illegal are under 236 in the package, and since they're not being voted on, it looks like that passed too.

 

[TallyT]

I think it's going t be OK. For fans who prize rptational jumps above all, it's not the number of jamps that is impressive, but rather the quality and difficulty. We do not, after all, despise short programs for having only three jumping passes instead of 6 or 7.

I think it will be good for the programs as a whole, ever since the length of the FS was reduced many (barring the very best and most creative) have felt too rushed and packed as they had to get it all into just four minutes.

And if this and the proposal about spins get through it does indicate that TPTB have realised they went too far in the jumps-are-everything direction. It's not a big realisation - they are still central to elite success and it's only losing one - but maybe just maybe they will get a bit more interesting programs in all levels.

 

[TontoK]

I think it's going t be OK. For fans who prize rptational jumps above all, it's not the number of jamps that is impressive, but rather the quality and difficulty. We do not, after all, despise short programs for having only three jumping passes instead of 6 or 7.

Well, I suppose one good thing will come from it.

We won't have to endure endless complaining about "jump drills." Because this move will serve to address those complaints, and I'm tired of hearing them. So, big win, I guess.

 

[Mathman]

Well, I suppose one good thing will come from it.

We won't have to endure endless complaining about "jump drills." Because this move will serve to address those complaints, and I'm tired of hearing them. So, big win, I guess.

Actually, I don't thnk the change will stop the complaints at all. People will just complain about programs that have no particular merit except the 6 jumps instead of about programs that have no merit except the 7 jumps. For me, I will comtimue tpo enjoy most short programs better than long programs. Short programs seem to me to be more coherently conceived as well as to do a better job of displaying technical highlights.

 

[TallyT]

Well, I suppose one good thing will come from it.

We won't have to endure endless complaining about "jump drills." Because this move will serve to address those complaints, and I'm tired of hearing them. So, big win, I guess.

Nah.

 

[cheerknithanson]

So there’s still a chance. Got it.

 

[Jeanie19]

I think it's going t be OK. For fans who prize rptational jumps above all, it's not the number of jamps that is impressive, but rather the quality and difficulty. We do not, after all, despise short programs for having only three jumping passes instead of 6 or 7.

I'm fine with 6 as long as edge calls and underrotations are marked and sloppy jumps get negative GOE. No excuses for anyone one less jump means better quality.

 

[lariko]

I think it's going t be OK. For fans who prize rptational jumps above all, it's not the number of jamps that is impressive, but rather the quality and difficulty. We do not, after all, despise short programs for having only three jumping passes instead of 6 or 7.

No. I am not part of your we. The number of jumps show the ability of the skater and really reveal poor jumpers, allowing the better ones to win. Less jumping passes will put non-jumpers in the lead due to increasing PCS mismatch with TES in FS with the not adjusted proratio. It already happens a lot on short programs, when skaters with poor jumping win SP, then that number of points helps them edge ahead even after current FS with 7 jumping passes. 7 jumping passes also forces the skater to show a mastery of the full arsenal of jumps, while 6 will only lead to cherry picking. Taking out additional jumping pass harms jumping development in FS and leads to backroom judging similar to Ice Dance. If ISU passes this proposal, it will be back to 6.0 era type of judging. FS will turn into a yawnfest of spirals and reputation/fed scoring. It's not worth watching when there is no longer a competition left, and everything is predetermined and unfair. Add to it the continuing absence of the Russians, and it really becomes just another ice show with the same skaters year after year until someone retires. Meh.

 

[cheerknithanson]

People who have the voting power, do the right thing and vote no.

Or at least wait until 2026-2027 to start.

 

[lariko]

So there’s still a chance. Got it.

They are not going to reject a whole package. The battle was lost when it stayed in the bundle.

 

[cheerknithanson]

They are not going to reject a whole package. The battle was lost when it stayed in the bundle.

You never know. Surprises can happen.

 

[lariko]

You never know. Surprises can happen.

Only the bad ones. Your men are already dead, to quote Agent Smith.

Edit: Anyway, I am so disgusted by the ISU now, I can't keep planning for the next season. The only meager consolation is that, for once, it's not the Russians' fault.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I think that after reducing the number of jumps to six, a year will pass (or maybe less) and arguments will begin that six jumps is too much. The way down is always easier and faster than the way up. Such decisions by the ISU are the legalization of degradation that has already occurred and the encouragement of further degradation.

Besides, I very much doubt that the artistic side of the programs will improve.

 

[el henry]

I will stop complaining about "jump drills" when I stop seeing programs full of jumps, and little else. To coin a phrase, for me they are yawnfests.

And when I stop hearing, at the times that I point out I would like a little more choreo and artistry and spins and steps...

It's a "sport sport sport sport sport sport sport sport sport" ... And "Progress progress progress progress progress progress progress progress progress" . As though endless repetitions of those mantras excuses it. Or even less understandable for me, that jumps are the only example of sport and progress.

One thing I think we can all agree upon, this ISU legislative process is clear as mud. But kudos to them for the livestream.

 

[lariko]

Besides, I very much doubt that the artistic side of the programs will improve.

It won't do a lick of difference. Those who were artistic, will remain artistic. The 90% will have 15 more seconds to skate in circles with constipated faces, then pop doubles and splatter.

The only things that will change is that judging become more bias and watching became more boring with more opportunities for bathroom breaks at home. Did people really had this little time for bathroom breaks before?

Blah, they really fastracked the yawnfest transformation of the figure skating. I guess, burying the sport sooner is one way to solve their current financial troubles.

 

[Mathman]

No. I am not part of your we. The number of jumps show the ability of the skater and really reveal poor jumpers, allowing the better ones to win. Less jumping passes will put non-jumpers in the lead due to increasing PCS mismatch with TES in FS with the not adjusted proratio...

I think that we are seeing a lot of “help, help, the sky is falling” over this issue. Ilia Malinin will be just fine with 4A, 4Lz, 4Lo, 4S , 4Lz+Eu+3F, and 4T+3T. Or he can upgrade his last element to 4T+4T. Jason Brown will not catch him even if he gets straight 10s in PCS.

Adam Sao Him Fa will not suffer: 4Lz, 4T+3T, 3A+2A, 4S, 4T, 3Lz+Eu+3S. He can always do a second backflip and gain a few extra presentation points

Yuma Kagiyama: 4S, 4F, 4T+Eu+3S, 3A+2A, 3Lz+3T, either 3A or 3F depending on how the rules about repeating jumps of the same type shake out. Now upgrade the 3Lz to 4Lz.

Not to mention, all of these big jumpers scored in the 90s on PCSs anyway.

Jumps will rule no matter what, as the merest glance at any scale of values document since 2003 attests.

 

[NaVi]

I think many people are misguided on who 6 instead of 7 jump passes is going to end up helping the most at the elite level. It's likely to help those who are the best jumpers rotationally, don't maintain speed through the jumps, and have a hard time(especially towards the end of a FS) getting it back up.

 

[lariko]

I think that we are seeing a lot of “help, help, the sky is falling” over this issue. Ilia Malinin will be just fine with 4A, 4Lz, 4Lo, 4S , 4Lz+Eu+3F, and 4T+3T. Or he can upgrade his last element to 4T+4T. Jason Brown will not catch him even if he gets straight 10s in PCS.

Adam Sao Him Fa will not suffer: 4Lz, 4T+3T, 3A+2A, 4S, 4T, 3Lz+Eu+3S. He can always do a second backflip and gain a few extra presentation points

Yuma Kagiyama: 4S, 4F, 4T+Eu+3S, 3A+2A, 3Lz+3T, either 3A or 3F depending on how the rules about repeating jumps of the same type shake out. Now upgrade the 3Lz to 4Lz.

Not to mention, all of these big jumpers scored in the 90s on PCSs anyway.

Jumps will rule no matter what, as the merest glance at any scale of values document since 2003 attests.

Wrong. The PCSs will have too much influence and it will negatively impact skaters mid-tier who have 1-2 quads, as they will be pushed under skaters with no quads. The proliferation of triples will smother out the quads in bronze to twenty positions. Brown will beat Miura, Sato, Rizzo, Grassl, Bridhti, Shaidorov, etc. He will be dragged on the podiums the second anyone as much as trips on a quad, which is grossly unfair.

And what does Malinin get for finally delivering a 4A? A nerf.

Senior women are boring already and will get even more so, because they will stop even trying to jump.

And the pair skating will be even more nerfed.

 

[4everchan]

No. I am not part of your we. The number of jumps show the ability of the skater and really reveal poor jumpers, allowing the better ones to win. Less jumping passes will put non-jumpers in the lead due to increasing PCS mismatch with TES in FS with the not adjusted proratio. It already happens a lot on short programs, when skaters with poor jumping win SP, then that number of points helps them edge ahead even after current FS with 7 jumping passes. 7 jumping passes also forces the skater to show a mastery of the full arsenal of jumps, while 6 will only lead to cherry picking. Taking out additional jumping pass harms jumping development in FS and leads to backroom judging similar to Ice Dance. If ISU passes this proposal, it will be back to 6.0 era type of judging. FS will turn into a yawnfest of spirals and reputation/fed scoring. It's not worth watching when there is no longer a competition left, and everything is predetermined and unfair. Add to it the continuing absence of the Russians, and it really becomes just another ice show with the same skaters year after year until someone retires. Meh.

It doesn't take me 7 jumps to identify a poor jumper...

 

[gkelly]

Should we compare the technical content of spins and step sequences and pair lifts now vs. 25 years ago?

Certainly one might prefer the earlier elements aesthetically.

(Personally I find beautiful and ugly, interesting and boring in both 6.0 and IJS eras, both simple and complex elements.)

But in terms of "higher faster stronger," skaters have certainly been pushing the envelope technically in those elements as well as in jumps.

And also in connections between elements, at least to some degree. Compared to the double-jump era (maybe with a few triples), not so much. Modern skaters tend not to have the rock-solid edges that figures-era skaters did, and the best skaters in that era were capable of fast crossovers and simple turns at speed, but combining complexity and speed at the same time has probably advanced significantly.

Personally, I want to see recognition of the technical difficulty of all sorts of elements, not just jumps, recognized and rewarded as athletic accomplishments. And mastery at the different kinds of technical skills rewarded, such that someone who excels more at blade-to-ice skills than in-air rotations can legitimately deserve higher technical scores based on mastery of those on-ice techniques, with scoring and program construction balanced to reward all these different kinds of skills.

Obviously anyone who can master highest difficulty in all kinds of technical skills including in-air rotation is going to have the best chance of winning medals.

And then of course there are the "artistic" areas of composition and presentation, which still count and can become deciding factors in otherwise close contests. But that's a separate issue than technical advancement.