59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[Jeanie19]

Ah, I didn't know that Davy did stage work. Over here in the UK (where he was from), in terms of his acting, he is best known for playing the grandson of iconic character Ena Sharples in ITV soap "Coronation Street".

I really liked the Monkees.

But, Mathman's comment has only scraped the surface of the disgraceful way the Monkees were treated by their management.

Yes, they were all actors, but they were actually musicians. But just not of the instruments that management told them to play. Davy Jones was a drummer, but because he was the designated "cute one", the management wanted him to be standing out front, not at the back hidden behind a drum kit.

Having a band fronted by a drummer is just not the done thing. Well, apart from the Dave Clark Five (admittedly Dave never did lead vocals - that was Mike Smith). Or Genesis after Peter Gabriel left and Phil Collins became the front man...

So, Mickey Dolenz, who was a guitarist, was sent to the drums instead. Mike Nesmith, a bassist, became the lead guitarist. And Peter Tork, a keyboard player, became the bassist.

Why?! What's the sense in that?!

Would it not have made more sense to actually let them play the instruments that they specialised in?! Then all the controversy would have been avoided. And people might have taken them more seriously.

CaroLiza_fan

I really liked the Monkees. But my comparison is that the Beatles could not be replicated. And the whole not playing their own instruments was insulting.

 

[Mathman]

2 weeks prior to the OLYG, Lysacek suffered a stress fracture to his foot while practicing quads. Had that not happened, he would have put a quad in. The following statement was made by him prior to his injury:

"Whoever skates clean with a quad will win it. I don't think many will" said Lysacek of the Olympics in January, 2010.

Evan was plagued by injuries and untimely illnesses throughout his career. He had to withdraw from a number of events and at other times he toughed it out and competed anyway while sick or injured. (I have wondered if he might have been more injury prone because of his height.)

In terms of quads, I haven't tried to track down every single attempt (his first quad was at 2007 U.S. Nationals; he completed the quad part of an intended quad-triple combo but was unable to pull off the second jump). Anyway, I would be very surprised to discover that he landed more than 4 or 5 in his whole career.

At 2010 Nationals he was unsuccessful with his quad attempt and ended up losing to Jeremy Abbott by 25 points. There was a big discussion among fans, including on Golden Skate, about whether he would be better off to give it a go in spite of everything (injuries and low probability of success) or whether he would be better off to double down on everything else and skate cleanly. As it turned out, he made the right decision.

As an aside, this was the first year that the USFSA made a big production of the fact that it was not automatic that the 1-2-3 finishers at Nationals would be named to the Olympic team, that other factors would be taken into account by the selection committee. But nobody (fans) believed them. This raised the specter of what USFS would do if the judges had thought that Lysacek's performance was so bad that he ended up in fourth. Would they really leave the reigning world champion off the Olympic team? (Evan got second so all was well).

 

[TontoK]

Regarding that Lysacek v Plushenko battle...

If I'm remembering correctly, and Lord I hope I am because the debate is already contentious enough without my confusing basic facts....

Evan won on TES, even though he did not present a quad jump. The reason was that he did everything very well, racking up excellent GOE. Yes, Plushenko performed some quads, but many of the jumping passes in that skate were of mediocre, or even poor, quality, and the GOEs reflected that.

Although my personal preference leans towards athleticism in men skaters, I firmly believe that Base Value is not, and should not be, the deciding factor. The content must be delivered WELL.

Evan's Olympic win was an excellent example of a skater delivering the content within his abilities with excellent quality and panache, and defeating a skater with a higher BV who flailed about a good bit of the program.

 

[Mathman]

The scoring was quite interesting. Plushenko's big gripe was that he felt that he should have been much farther ahead after the short program, instead of leading by only 0.55 points.

In terms of PCss, in the LP two competitors beat both Plushenko and Lysacek, Lambiel and Takahashi (and a young Patrick Chan was right up there, too.) On the tech side Lambiel did 2 quads in the LP, but they were not of top quality and he did not do a triple Axel. Takahashi fell on his quad attempt but presented a sublime program. It always seemed to me that judges at the Olympics, with a billion people watching, were stricter on falls than was the case in the ISU's own competitions.

 

[skatesofgold]

Regarding that Lysacek v Plushenko battle...

If I'm remembering correctly, and Lord I hope I am because the debate is already contentious enough without my confusing basic facts....

Evan won on TES, even though he did not present a quad jump. The reason was that he did everything very well, racking up excellent GOE. Yes, Plushenko performed some quads, but many of the jumping passes in that skate were of mediocre, or even poor, quality, and the GOEs reflected that.

Although my personal preference leans towards athleticism in men skaters, I firmly believe that Base Value is not, and should not be, the deciding factor. The content must be delivered WELL.

Evan's Olympic win was an excellent example of a skater delivering the content within his abilities with excellent quality and panache, and defeating a skater with a higher BV who flailed about a good bit of the program.

Plushenko also front loaded the jumps, while Lysacek's were spread out more evenly, taking advantage of bonus.

 

[Mathman]

Plushenko also front loaded the jumps, while Lysacek's were spread out more evenly, taking advantage of bonus.

Good point. Plushenko did only 3Lz+2T. 3S and 2A in the second half and earned only 0.93 bonus points. Lysacek;s program, somewhat backloaded (3-5), netted him 3.23 bonus points. One can certainly make the case that this was the difference -- although in such a close contest, any little thing could have swung the result one way or the other.

As always, the PCSs provide an interesting look into the scoring system. Patrick Chan got scores of 9.50, 9.00, 8.75, 9.25 and 9.00 from the USA judge and 7.75, 7.50, 7.75, 7.75 and 7.75 from the Russion judge. In fairness, though, the Russian judge was consistently stingy (with Plushenko, too) and the American judge uniformly generous for the whole competition.

 

[4everchan]

the PCS scores were super stingy all around until later... perhaps 2014.
Young Patrick Chan was a medal contender until he had a serious injury. Finishing 5th was a very big achievement for him. He got silver at 2010 worlds and then gold the next three world championships. I have to say that 2010 men isn't my favourite event but then, 2014 was worse

 

[Arigato]

Aw, c'mon. 2010 Was great. When did you ever get to see a skater walk over the gold podium just to be obnoxious? Daisuke is wondering, "What the *********** are you doing?"

Quotes from the gold podium trespasser:

“I was positive I won,” Plushenko said through an interpreter. “I suppose Evan needs a medal more than I do. Maybe it’s because I already have one.”

“Without quadruples, I don’t know; sorry, but it’s not men,” Plushenko said after his short program. “It’s not men’s figure skating.”

"I was sure I had won my second Olympic Games, but this is the new system," Plushenko said. "The quad is not valued anymore."

"It's clear why the judging system was changed because the United States and Canada don't have anyone who can do a quadruple jump," Plushenko said.

 

[TallyT]

Lowering the relative weight of big jumps will not allow an artiste to overtake the kind of scores that Malinin and Fa can put up,

But it might encourage them to be greater.

 

[Mathman]

I think that all skaters want to develop mastery of every aspect of their sport no matter what the rules say. I have never in my life heard a competive figure skater say, "I don't care about anything except jumping. That's where the money is. I have no interest in spins and steps, don't care if miusic is playing or not. Choreography? -- What's that?

I believe that however the ISU twiddles with scales of values and balanced program requirements, the big jumpers will work as hard as they can on the rest of it and the performance-and-blade guys will work on thier jumps. The result -- what we have now. A few pograms dominated by jumps with not much else, a few programs featuring big jumpos while also demonstrating overall skating skills, a few programs that try their utmost to address (my favorate phrase) "the full skating vocabulary," a few programs that feature only medium-hard jumps (but the best the skater can master) while putting on an entertaining show or tugging on our heartstrings.

That is the kind of "balance" that I like the best. Maybe not every program shows "balance" within itself, but the whole competition provides a smogasbord of tasty and varied delights.

We have an active thread going with the title "If you could watch only one skating performance over and over, which one would it be." To me, that;s the point, We DON'T have to watch just one program that represents the pinnacle of perfection to us. We can watch a whole bunch of programs that are satisfying in different ways.

 

[4everchan]

I think that all skaters want to develop mastery of every aspect of their sport no matter what the rules say. I have never in my life heard a competive figure skater say, "I don't care about anything except jumping. That's where the money is. I have no interest in spins and steps, don't care if miusic is playing or not. Choreography? -- What's that?

Nobody saying it out loud doesn't mean there is a true on ice evolution.
A tennis player can say : i played a bad match... because in the next match, they can still bring it and win it.
A figure skater cannot say : i don't give a flying camel about my spins... because right away, everyone and @el henry 's little cousin will notice and mark their spins down.

Figure skaters are selling their programs... (expression used by many fans and commentators).

Figure skaters have to make sure they are rewarded for their strengths, and yes, they will focus on that.

I don't mind at all the variety of skaters, the different approaches in skating and style. I agree it's entertaining.

What I mind is how the performances are evaluated. Some, because the IJS is now wonky, some , because judges give PCS like candy.

 

[TallyT]

We have an active thread going with the title "If you could watch only one skating performance over and over, which one would it be." To me, that;s the point, We DON'T have to watch just one program that represents the pinnacle of perfection to us. We can watch a whole bunch of programs that are satisfying in different ways.

This is true (I have a special external hard drive just for saved skating vids, and the variety of skaters on it is... well, varied.

Nobody saying it out loud doesn't mean there is a true on ice evolution.
A tennis player can say : i played a bad match... because in the next match, they can still bring it and win it.
A figure skater cannot say : i don't give a flying camel about my spins... because right away, everyone and @el henry 's little cousin will notice and mark their spins down.

Figure skaters are selling their programs... (expression used by many fans and commentators).

Figure skaters have to make sure they are rewarded for their strengths, and yes, they will focus on that.

I don't mind at all the variety of skaters, the different approaches in skating and style. I agree it's entertaining.

What I mind is how the performances are evaluated. Some, because the IJS is now wonky, some , because judges give PCS like candy.

And reputation scoring. When I started following figure skating back in... 2018? - I had no idea what reputation scoring was or that people could actually be awarded different PCS and GOE for equal skills based, say, on which group they were in during the competition, let alone the strength and/or pushing of their country's fed.

And yet when you listen to commentators, that's just pretty much dismissed with a wave of the "the way the judges do it" hand.

 

[Mathman]

And yet when you listen to commentators, that's [reputation juding"s] just pretty much dismissed with a wave of the "the way the judges do it" hand.

Of course there is reputation judging in figure skating. Like if someone found an old manuscript and it turned out to be a lost play by Shakespeare, it would be praised for its surpassing excellence. If it later turned out be be a forgery by @el_henry's little cousin™, then the play would be re-evaluated and we would decide that it wasn't so great after all.

 

[Diana Delafield]

This is true (I have a special external hard drive just for saved skating vids, and the variety of skaters on it is... well, varied.

And reputation scoring. When I started following figure skating back in... 2018? - I had no idea what reputation scoring was or that people could actually be awarded different PCS and GOE for equal skills based, say, on which group they were in during the competition, let alone the strength and/or pushing of their country's fed.

And yet when you listen to commentators, that's just pretty much dismissed with a wave of the "the way the judges do it" hand.

Back in the mists of time, in the 1960s or early '70s, there was a story going around about a very old judge in Europe who had gone practically blind and virtually deaf, but somehow was kept on in the pool of pairs judges. I think it was at the European championships when he was judging, and one pair withdrew at the last minute due to illness. This left the ranks one entry short and the others just closed up in the order of skate, but this was in pre-computer days so the printed order of performance stood.

It was noticed that from pair X&Y on, that judge's marks were way off what everyone else was giving, every time. It turned out that he couldn't hear the announcer properly and couldn't see the skaters' faces, and didn't realize there was a couple left out. He was marking according to the list of names on the paper he had, out of synch with everyone else on the judging panel.

 

[Mathman]

Figure skaters are selling their programs... (expression used by many fans and commentators).

True, true. If you just flubbed your program strut off the ice like "Fall? What fall? I didn't see any fall. And neither did you!"

The following is a little bit off topic for this thread, but I just had an epiphany of sorts about music in figure skating. Having recently watched the 2024 world championship LPs, 24 ladies, 24 men, 20 dance teams, 20 pirs teams (OK, I didn't actually watch every one of those 88 performances, but still...) I tested myself. Without looking it up and just going by memory, for how many progams could I remember what song they skated to?

One. Jason Brown did Impossible Dream. Does this prove anything except that figure skating fandom is a young folks' endeavor?

 

[TontoK]

Of course there is reputation judging in figure skating. Like if someone found an old manuscript and it turned out to be a lost play by Shakespeare, it would be praised for its surpassing excellence. If it later turned out be be a forgery by @el_henry's little cousin™, then the play would be re-evaluated and we would decide that it wasn't so great after all.

There is reputation judging in most everything.

Before being exposed as frauds, Milli Vanilli won a Grammy for Pete's sake.

 

[Diana Delafield]

True, true. If you just flubbed your program strut off the ice like "Fall? What fall? I didn't see any fall. And neither did you!"

In the compulsory figures days, Katerina Witt had a trick of finishing a figure and then taking a long look at it, nodding her head with satisfaction, and skating off with a triumphant smile, no matter what her tracing actually looked like. Apparently it often worked.

The following is a little bit off topic for this thread, but I just had an epiphany of sorts about music in figure skating. Having recently watched the 2024 world championship LPs, 24 ladies, 24 men, 20 dance teams, 20 pirs teams (OK, I didn't actually watch every one of those 88 performances, but still...) I tested myself. Without looking it up and just going by memory, for how many progams could I remember what song they skated to?

One. Jason Brown did Impossible Dream. Does this prove anything except that figure skating fandom is a young folks' endeavor?

Remember the songs? I'd never even heard of most of them, or their source if it was from some film or other, or the singer if there was one. And couldn't think for the life of me why anyone would feel like skating to that. ("Our coach played this for us and we just loved it so much!" )

("Nobody skates to Rodgers & Hammerstein or Lerner & Lowe anymore!" she grumps to herself as she stomps off, bashing young fans with her walker.)

 

[TontoK]

Remember the songs? I'd never even heard of most of them, or their source if it was from some film or other, or the singer if there was one. And couldn't think for the life of me why anyone would feel like skating to that. ("Our coach played this for us and we just loved it so much!" )

("Nobody skates to Rodgers & Hammerstein or Lerner & Lowe anymore!" she grumps to herself as she stomps off, bashing young fans with her walker.)

While I don't bash anyone with my walker just yet, this silver-haired fox is ready for real music to be brought back. I think many of the complaints about the lack of an emotional bond can be tied directly to music choices. It's like there's a competition-within-the-competition for who can use the most boring dragass music.

I complain as much as anyone, probably more than most, about warhorses, but at least most of them are lively.

Now the draggy tunes are entering the warhorse arena. I just saw an ice dance team will be skating to Succession next season. How exactly do you dance to something like that? I mean, I suppose I give Ilia a nod for originality because I hadn't heard it used before, but that wasn't exactly a catchy tune.

 

[cailuj365]

Although my personal preference leans towards athleticism in men skaters, I firmly believe that Base Value is not, and should not be, the deciding factor. The content must be delivered WELL.

Completely agree. I am all for the technical breakthroughs and progression, but high BV + messy execution is an ugly combination in the moment. You have to skate well to make the high BV count if you want to win. Classic recent examples are Trusova vs. Scherbakova in OG 2022 or Ilia from Worlds 2023. GOE can indeed make substantial differences in the end.

What I do love though is that what was once considered out-of-this-world BV simply becomes expected eventually. I think about what we used to see in 2010 vs. what we see from the men now, and the advancement has been quite amazing over time.

 

[Magill]

I think that all skaters want to develop mastery of every aspect of their sport no matter what the rules say. I have never in my life heard a competive figure skater say, "I don't care about anything except jumping. That's where the money is. I have no interest in spins and steps, don't care if miusic is playing or not. Choreography? -- What's that?

I guess you have never heard an interview with Sasha Trusova at her peak. She was pretty honest about it and easily admitted that she cared for jumps and jumps only. She dedicated a substantial portion of her time and energy to work on everything else, though, (particularly spins and SS) just because at the senior level she was not able to win with her jumps only. Which she didn't anyway, but that's another story.
Was she the only one to feel that way, or the only one to be young and naive enough to say it out loud? Everyone can answer for themselves, I guess.