59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[AxelLover]

Going back to the topic of balanced programs and of what qualities we prefer to see in skaters, I guess we can all agree that ideally a skater should be excellent at everything.

It is more interesting to discuss whether we prefer a skate with average jumps and average artistry over skate with great jumps and poor artistry (or poor jumps and great artistry). Personally, I tend to prefer skaters which are exceptional in one category and poor in the other over those who are average at everything. For example, both Boyang Jin and Deniss Vasiljevs are among my faves.

 

[Mathman]

I guess you have never heard an interview with Sasha Trusova at her peak. She was pretty honest about it and easily admitted that she cared for jumps and jumps only.

I think that this is a highly unusual attitude for any skater -- indeed, for any athlete in any sport. If all you care about is jumping, why would you take up ice skating? Why not go in for pole vault or trampoline?

I think that every athlete aspires to be the best that they can be at all aspects of their sport. A high scoring basketball player (Caitlin Clark for instance) works hard on her defensive skill set or on playmaking and takes pride when this hard work pays off, even if she only gets to be OK on defense to go along with scoring 30 points per game.

 

[Karoltyna]

Top 4 men all had 2 quads in the SP and 4 quads with 8 jumps total in the FS. The guy who went for 6 quads came in 6th. I rewatch that WC all the time. It's a blast, and some really funny moments in the green room. Not to mention, Tracy Wilson's face in the K&C after the Men's FS. I like the 2017 WC for many reasons and it shares something with the 2024 Worlds — they each have a guy who did poorly in their SP, ending up with a medal on the podium. Yuzu went from 5th in the SP to 1st in the FS and winning the gold. He set a world record in the FS.

And in 2024 Adam went from 19th in the SP to 2nd in the FS, winning the bronze. I have never seen a look on a guy's face like that at the end of his program. You'd think he just killed a person. I think FS Adam killed SP Adam and circled the body lying on the ice.

I read an interview where he said the thought the other Adam before and while skating FS, so you're right he killed the other guy. Let's just hope the other Adam won't be resurrected any time soon.

 

[Karoltyna]

I guess you have never heard an interview with Sasha Trusova at her peak. She was pretty honest about it and easily admitted that she cared for jumps and jumps only. She dedicated a substantial portion of her time and energy to work on everything else, though, (particularly spins and SS) just because at the senior level she was not able to win with her jumps only. Which she didn't anyway, but that's another story.
Was she the only one to feel that way, or the only one to be young and naive enough to say it out loud? Everyone can answer for themselves, I guess.

Well, it was clearly visible she was honest. I felt awkward watching her and the most awkward thing was the olympics. It showed that you shouldn't make children compete like this, it destroys them. I recently watched some of her newer interviews, she seems to be a remarkable person.

 

[el henry]

El Henry's little cousin is quite touched.

Of course skaters try to perfect what they can, but a new scoring system could, in some small way, encourage perfection elsewhere. Perhaps give some reassurance.

I have seen comments that give me the impression that some might think Jason skates out onto the ice singing "La la la I don't have a quad who cares la la la".

Jason worked and worked and worked in practices to land a quad, any quad. For whatever reasons, he couldn't. He has given interviews where he said he fell into a deep depression and asked himself "Is there a place for me in this sport because I can't master this jump". He worked with psychologists and coaches, and determined, yes, I still have something to give this sport. From my point of view, so very fortunate for us and the sport.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a point system that also supported Jason and skaters like him?

 

[Karoltyna]

True, true. If you just flubbed your program strut off the ice like "Fall? What fall? I didn't see any fall. And neither did you!"

The following is a little bit off topic for this thread, but I just had an epiphany of sorts about music in figure skating. Having recently watched the 2024 world championship LPs, 24 ladies, 24 men, 20 dance teams, 20 pirs teams (OK, I didn't actually watch every one of those 88 performances, but still...) I tested myself. Without looking it up and just going by memory, for how many progams could I remember what song they skated to?

One. Jason Brown did Impossible Dream. Does this prove anything except that figure skating fandom is a young folks' endeavor?

I'm tone deaf, I forget the most of music the moment it stops with the exeption of some rock/metal songs. The problem is that I remember large parts of programs skated over 25 years ago but I don't really remember much from the programs I watched in March.

 

[Karoltyna]

El Henry's little cousin is quite touched.

Of course skaters try to perfect what they can, but a new scoring system could, in some small way, encourage perfection elsewhere. Perhaps give some reassurance.

I have seen comments that give me the impression that some might think Jason skates out onto the ice singing "La la la I don't have a quad who cares la la la".

Jason worked and worked and worked in practices to land a quad, any quad. For whatever reasons, he couldn't. He has given interviews where he said he fell into a deep depression and asked himself "Is there a place for me in this sport because I can't master this jump". He worked with psychologists and coaches, and determined, yes, I still have something to give this sport. From my point of view, so very fortunate for us and the sport.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a point system that also supported Jason and skaters like him?

The yt chat during Worlds was "why is he so overscored, he doesn't have quads"

 

[4everchan]

El Henry's little cousin is quite touched.

Of course skaters try to perfect what they can, but a new scoring system could, in some small way, encourage perfection elsewhere. Perhaps give some reassurance.

I have seen comments that give me the impression that some might think Jason skates out onto the ice singing "La la la I don't have a quad who cares la la la".

Jason worked and worked and worked in practices to land a quad, any quad. For whatever reasons, he couldn't. He has given interviews where he said he fell into a deep depression and asked himself "Is there a place for me in this sport because I can't master this jump". He worked with psychologists and coaches, and determined, yes, I still have something to give this sport. From my point of view, so very fortunate for us and the sport.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a point system that also supported Jason and skaters like him?

I think the point system is already in place, yet not perfect. Jason gets very high GOEs for well performed elements. He gets high PCS too.
The problems :
Some skaters with poor elements get high GOES too. (not talking about Malinin's very nice quads here before people freak out)
Some skaters get pretty much just as high in PCS as Jason, when they shouldn't.

The solutions : If the top jumper can gather 10-20% more TESpoints than his competitors, the top skater should get 10-20% more PCS than his competitors... not 3-5%. So the system needs to be tweaked for that.

The judges : they need to stop being impressed by quads and remove that quad PCS/ GOE bonus... I mean, I am just a fan and with the number of quads I have seen in my life, even just the ones live at the rink, it's no longer a novelty (perhaps except the 4A). Like seriously, don't mark a skater because he can do quads... Almost everyone + @el henry 's little cousin is attempting a quad these days.

 

[cailuj365]

Trusova was an outlier with her attitude, and for all her priority placed on quads, I can't remember her skating clean multi-quad programs when it counted. She got on the podium, sure, but she doesn't have any major titles as a result. I'm not sorry for her or think she deserves sympathy or whatever her fans think she deserves.

And now, I would argue that no one, including the judges, is impressed with just having 1-2 quads. 19 out of 24 skaters at Worlds were trying to put out at least 1 quad in their free skate. The time of being impressed by just attempting a quad passed 10-15 years ago. I expect seeing 1-2 now, and if you aren't regularly landing 1-2 well, you better have something else amazing to make up for it (Aymoz, Vasiļjevs, Brown). And hey, that's what I see when I look at the top 10 with the success of Brown staying in the top 5 (with a 1A, might I add), and Vasiļjevs being 7th. I don't think anyone who placed above them should have placed lower, and the messy multi-quad skates plummeted and stayed below them.

I would like to see other non-jump elements be given more value though. Level 4 spins and step sequences should be worth at least 5-6 points. When done superbly, I would like to see a step sequence have the same points as at least the base value of a 4T and a great spin perhaps the same BV as a triple lutz. I think Yuma's ending step sequence from his free skate last year was worth the value of at least one quad. Perhaps weight the GOE higher for step sequences and spins compared to the jumps, I don't know. But yeah, I'd like to say "Well, maybe Skater A only has 2 quads, but he has that killer step sequence, so it's like he has 3. if skater B falls on his 3rd or 4th quad, skater A could win!"

I don't have bright ideas about how to change the PCS judging except be more accurate. I saw that Brown outscored Miura in PCS by 12 points, worth more than his 3Lz-3T, so he does maintain some advantage there.

 

[Magill]

I think that this is a highly unusual attitude for any skater -- indeed, for any athlete in any sport. If all you care about is jumping, why would you take up ice skating? Why not go in for pole vault or trampoline?

I think that every athlete aspires to be the best that they can be at all aspects of their sport. A high scoring basketball player (Caitlin Clark for instance) works hard on her defensive skill set or on playmaking and takes pride when this hard work pays off, even if she only gets to be OK on defense to go along with scoring 30 points per game.

Trusova was an outlier with her attitude,

Sasha Trusova surely was an outlier in more ways than one, including her attitude. But I do not believe in a vision of teenage, success-hungry skaters thinking mainly about development of the sport. I guess, there comes a time when you have secured your golds, or you know you will not secure them anyway, when you might think about such goals. Otherwise, AFAIK, and I read or watched many interviews with a whole range of them, they want to win (or whatever is a realistic equivalent in their particular case, Top10, Top 5, podium) and they count points to get there.
Sorry if it disillusions anyone.

 

[cailuj365]

Sasha Trusova surely was an outlier in more ways than one, including her attitude. But I do not believe in a vision of teenage, success-hungry skaters thinking mainly about development of the sport. I guess, there comes a time when you have secured your golds, or you know you will not secure them anyway, when you might think about such goals. Otherwise, AFAIK, and I read or watched many interviews with a whole range of them, they want to win (or whatever is a realistic equivalent in their particular case, Top10, Top 5, podium) and they count points to get there.
Sorry if it disillusions anyone.

Yeah, they can count points all the want, but it's on the skater to execute. Clearly, that seemed to disillusion Sasha and her fans, lol. I still like Trusova and think she was a remarkable athlete, and man, some of her quads were glorious, but BV alone does not make a champion.

 

[Mathman]

Remember the songs? I'd never even heard of most of them, or their source if it was from some film or other, or the singer if there was one. And couldn't think for the life of me why anyone would feel like skating to that.

I complain as much as anyone, probably more than most, about warhorses, but at least most of them are lively.

Now the draggy tunes are entering the warhorse arena. I just saw an ice dance team will be skating to Succession next season. How exactly do you dance to something like that?

About warhorses, I think that there are reasons why some works endure in figure skating. The music for Swan Lake – a ballet – was written expressly to support and cue certain dance moves. In Carmen, the character/story can be introduced in a couple of broad strokes that the audience can’t miss.

The early Michelle Kwan sought a middle ground (that is, Lori Nichol did on Michelle’s behalf). She came up with one piece after another that was off the beaten track yet nevertheless had musical merit. Lyra Angelica, probably her best-remembered program, is a harp concerto by the not-very-well known composer William Alwyn. And this program did not really have a theme or story line – unless “Michelle Kwan skating” is a theme.

She did do Carmen as a short program in 1998-99, but the music was the somewhat quirky Carmen Fantasy by movie composer Franz Wexman rather than the actual opera music.

(Her LP that year featured a piece titled “Absalom’s Death and Tango” – presumably not in that order. As for appropriate musical choices in general, Miki Ando once skated to that wonderful tune Hey Mickey. “Miki, Miki, you’re so fine! You’re so fine you blow my mind, hey Miki.” )

After Michelle separated from her choreographer and later from her coach to “take control of my own skating,” she turned to Tosca and Bolero.

 

[Mathman]

... I do not believe in a vision of teenage, success-hungry skaters thinking mainly about development of the sport.

They don't think about the overall development of the sport, but I believe and hope that many of them are interested in their own personal development in the sport. So you want to win? Skate well. (OK, maybe skaters have to be 17, not 15, before that revelation dawns on them.)

On the other hand, Plusheko was 37 when he complained (about the scoring at 2020 Europeans): "In Tallinn, Brian Joubert got more points for his transitions than me, although we did exactly the same transitions on the ice. In fact, we don't have any transitions because we focus on our jumps."

Joubert had previously complained about Jeffery Buttle winning 2008 worlds without a quad -- an insult to the sport of men's figure skating (Joubert finished second.)

 

[TontoK]

Agree @Mathman that Michelle hit the right notes in the Lori Nichol era. She presented programs to music that wasn't common, and yet had something special. Lyra Angelica might not be a toe-tapper, but it is certainly memorable.

 

[Arigato]

I think that this is a highly unusual attitude for any skater -- indeed, for any athlete in any sport. If all you care about is jumping, why would you take up ice skating?

To paraphrase a nameless skater, It gives him a jolt of adrenaline when he jumps quads. Adrenaline junkie. Skydivers jump out of planes for the same reason. He never gave a hoot about skating skills or even a good running edge out of a jump. No adrenaline hit.

 

[Mathman]

To paraphrase a nameless skater, It gives him a jolt of adrenaline when he jumps quads. Adrenaline junkie. Skydivers jump out of planes for the same reason. He never gave a hoot about skating skills or even a good running edge out of a jump. No adrenaline hit.

Still, why did this nameless skater take up ice skating? Why not sky diving?

 

[Mathman]

I think you're missing why I think what he did was extraordinary. He may never even do it again, himself. Why? It was clean. All 7 jumping passes were clean, of which 6 included a quad. That means all jumps had positive GOE. And I don't mean borderline positive GOE like + 0.36.
I mean good positive GOE:

1. 4A +3.93
2. 4Lz +4.44
3. 4Lo +2.70
4. 4S +2.91
5. 4Lz +1Eu + 3F +4.27
6. 4T+ 3T + 2.17
7. 3Lz+ 3A + SEQ + 1.94

A remarkable tour de force indeed.

But the question that this raises for the ISU scoring sytem is this. Take away the entire 22.36 that he earned in jump GOEs in the LP. He still wins the gold medal with just base values. Is this how the system is intended to work?

 

[4everchan]

A remarkable tour de force indeed.

But the question that this raises for the ISU scoring sytem is this. Take away the entire 22.36 that he earned in jump GOEs in the LP. He still wins the gold medal with just base values. Is this how the system is intended to work?

i gather this is a rhetorical question.

 

[cailuj365]

I couldn't care less about a quint.

I'm not even mentally or emotionally ready to see a quint. I'm barely mentally ready to see the 4A when it happens.

Take away the entire 22.36 that he earned in jump GOEs in the LP. He still wins the gold medal with just base values. Is this how the system is intended to work?

I would say that his PCS would have gone down as well if he somehow had a net 0 GOE performance. So, he probably would not have won.

 

[Magill]

Yeah, they can count points all the want, but it's on the skater to execute. Clearly, that seemed to disillusion Sasha and her fans, lol. I still like Trusova and think she was a remarkable athlete, and man, some of her quads were glorious, but BV alone does not make a champion.

Still what I meant was that even for someone who does not care about any other elements at all, they care about points and the way they are assigned. So it would be beneficial to have a system of value that encourages even the biggest jumpers to work on other things than jumps only. At this point, this would probably require some major adjustments both within TES and PCS scales as the current values and balances between them are just sooo outdated. That's all.