A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[deneb]

Yeah, the world standings have been updated considering the TEB SP as final results.
Not all bios have been updated yet.
Shoma Uno got 400 points and all other skaters for all disciplines got their points:
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsmen.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wspairs.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm

 

[Mathman]

Maybe the ISU has been playing us along all the time. Maybe they have no intention of making any announcement or offering any rationale. Maybe they will just say, after NHK, "In the interest of fairness we decided to expand the field a little for the GP Final. Here are the names of the 8 men and 7 women who will compete."

 

[Marin]

http://forum.sportbox.ru/index.php?showtopic=313190&page=14#entry852528376
here is preliminary information (not official ). Participants Grand Prix Trophee Eric Bompard may be included in the 5th stage of the Cup of Russia (December 2-6. Moscow).
Information from the official forum sportbox.ru. Yesterday posted.

 

[Lunna]

http://forum.sportbox.ru/index.php?showtopic=313190&page=14#entry852528376
here is preliminary information (not official ). Participants Grand Prix Trophee Eric Bompard may be included in the 5th stage of the Cup of Russia (December 2-6. Moscow).
Information from the official forum sportbox.ru. Yesterday posted.

Then I don't understand why ISU updated world standings today and in this case some skaters will have to compete 3 weeks in a row... not sure how I feel about this

 

[Snow63]

http://forum.sportbox.ru/index.php?showtopic=313190&page=14#entry852528376
here is preliminary information (not official ). Participants Grand Prix Trophee Eric Bompard may be included in the 5th stage of the Cup of Russia (December 2-6. Moscow).
Information from the official forum sportbox.ru. Yesterday posted.

Most probably it's not correct. Although Yulia is there

 

[Marin]

Then I don't understand why ISU updated world standings today and in this case some skaters will have to compete 3 weeks in a row... not sure how I feel about this

They are taking too much time, seriously I feel bad for skaters.

 

[ice coverage]

Yeah, the world standings have been updated considering the TEB SP as final results.
Not all bios have been updated yet.
Shoma Uno got 400 points and all other skaters for all disciplines got their points:
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsmen.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wspairs.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm

And ... it is more than strange that not every TEB bio has been updated.
The World Standings were updated well over 24 hours ago, as I said above in response to Marin.

If the ISU had wanted to complete updating all TEB bios (only forty or so), it should have had plenty of time to do so already.

I have a feeling that Rodeghiero's bio got plucked out for immediate updating specifically because she is competing at Rostelecom.

Does not seem to be a matter of Ladies being the first discipline to be updated. Gracie Gold's bio has not been updated:

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013680.htm last update: 12.11.2015 16:42:41​

 

[ice coverage]

http://forum.sportbox.ru/index.php?showtopic=313190&page=14#entry852528376
here is preliminary information (not official ). Participants Grand Prix Trophee Eric Bompard may be included in the 5th stage of the Cup of Russia (December 2-6. Moscow).
Information from the official forum sportbox.ru. Yesterday posted.

Caveat:

The correct translation of может быть = "maybe" or "perhaps" (very different meaning from "may be").​

Question:

What do you mean by "official forum" sportbox.ru? What makes it "official"?

(Would you call GoldenSkate an "official" forum?)​

 

[Marin]

Caveat:

The correct translation of может быть = "maybe" or "perhaps" (very different meaning from "may be").​

Question:

What do you mean by "official forum" sportbox.ru? What makes it "official"?

(Would you call GoldenSkate an "official" forum?)​

I mean official forum of teleportal sportbox TV, maybe I should delete that post as it is just speculation.

 

[moriel]

1. Still adds extra cost as there are more skaters skating on Rostelecom.
2. Possibly It is not fair to Rostelecom skaters, who will have extra competition
3. Not fair to TEB skaters who will need to travel to Moscow
4. Not fair to skaters like Peng Cheng / Zhang Hao and Roberta Rodeghiero, who have Rostelecom as their second GP.

So.
Imho, adding people to Rostelecom is just worst out of possible, because it is a solution that manages to screw up even more people even more, adds extra costs to skaters and feds. And has no special benefits really.
Counting just SP, ignoring TEB scores alltogether, adding extra skaters to GPF, doing some weird scores calculation - everything still better than this.

 

[deneb]

And ... it is more than strange that not every TEB bio has been updated.
The World Standings were updated well over 24 hours ago, as I said above in response to Marin.

If the ISU had wanted to complete updating all TEB bios (only forty or so), it should have had plenty of time to do so already.

I have a feeling that Rodeghiero's bio got plucked out for immediate updating specifically because she is competing at Rostelecom.

Does not seem to be a matter of Ladies being the first discipline to be updated. Gracie Gold's bio has not been updated:

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013680.htm last update: 12.11.2015 16:42:41​

It could be!
I was taking a look also for Merano Cup and neither Leonova nor Menshov have been updated for their victory.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010055.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00006781.htm
Neither other skaters that competed there.

Season's World Ranking have been updated too.
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrmen.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrladies.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrpairs.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrdance.htm


EDIT:
also Cheng PENG / Hao ZHANG bio has been updated, and they will compete in Moscow.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00054273.htm

 

[Pamigena]

Participants Grand Prix Trophee Eric Bompard may be included in the 5th stage of the Cup of Russia (December 2-6. Moscow).

This may be a really stupid question, but what's that supposed to mean? I thought Cup of Russia was just another name for Rostelecom. But that's this weekend and not in December.

 

[Lunna]

This may be a really stupid question, but what's that supposed to mean? I thought Cup of Russia was just another name for Rostelecom. But that's this weekend and not in December.

It's not Rostelecom that will take place this weekend. There's internal Russian cup with 5 stages and the final and the 5th stage will take place in Moscow at 2-6 Dec. (yellow color) http://fsrussia.ru/calendar.html#декабрь

 

[Pamigena]

ok, thank you, that makes more sense then

 

[Mathman]

This may be a really stupid question, but what's that supposed to mean? I thought Cup of Russia was just another name for Rostelecom. But that's this weekend and not in December.

It's not Rostelecom that will take place this weekend. There's internal Russian cup with 5 stages and the final (yellow color) http://fsrussia.ru/calendar.html#декабрь

Can anyone explain exactly what the proposal is? The TEB skaters will be invited to skate at an internal Russian competition. Let's say Uno, Chan and Aaron show up, the rest decline. Uno gets gold, Chan silver, and Aaron bronze and they all qualify for the Grand Prix Final. Is that it?

 

[Lunna]

Can anyone explain exactly what the proposal is? The TEB skaters will be invited to skate at an internal Russian competition. Let's say Chan and Aaron show up, the rest decline. Chan gets gold and Aaron silver and they both qualify for the Grand Prix Final. Is that it?

That's just a new speculation with no further details.

 

[ice coverage]

I mean official forum of teleportal sportbox TV, maybe I should delete that post as it is just speculation.

Can anyone explain exactly what the proposal is? The TEB skaters will be invited to skate at an internal Russian competition. Let's say Uno, Chan and Aaron show up, the rest decline. Uno gets gold, Chan silver, and Aaron bronze and they all qualify for the Grand Prix Final. Is that it?

Thx for answering my question, Marin.

MM, what is at the link is one sentence about a rumored proposal. The one sentence does not explain exactly what the rumored proposal is.

For posterity, quoting the post with the rumored proposal :

Состав участников 5 этапа кубка России может быть изменен за счет возможного включения в состав ряда участников этапа гран-при Trophee Eric Bompard, проходившего в Бордо.

 

[Mathman]

You keep talking about realities.

The reality is that Patrick already won a GP this season. The reason his name keeps being invoked by people on every side of this issue is that he already won a GP this season.

I happen to like Patrick, but if he had not already earned 15 ranking points from 2015 Skate Canada, I for one would not be spending any extra time considering possible repercussions for him as opposed to any other TEB skater (Julianne/Charlie or anyone else).

This is what is frustrating to me. The topic of the thread is fair play. It is universally acknowledged what this means: every competitor should be treated equally in so far as possible. Post #1 on this thread (by drivingmissdaisy) is perfect. The OP says, this is my proposal, and this is why I think it would be fair.

If instead a post goes, this is my proposal, and this is why I think it would be "fair to Liza Tuktamysheva" (read "beneficial to Liza Tuktamysheva"), to me that is the very opposite of "fair."

If a selection system is advanced as abstractly "fair," what possible relevance could there be to the fact that Max Aaron won Skate America?

 

[ice coverage]

This is what is frustrating to me. The topic of the thread is fair play. It is universally acknowledged what this means: every competitor should be treated equally in so far as possible. Post #1 on this thread (by drivingmissdaisy) is perfect. The OP says, this is my proposal, and this is why I think it would be fair.

If instead a post goes, this is my proposal, and this is why I think it would be "fair to Liza Tuktamysheva" (read "beneficial to Liza Tuktamysheva"), to me that is the very opposite of "fair."

If a selection system is advanced as abstractly "fair," what possible relevance could there be to the fact that Max Aaron won Skate America?

I have no problem with every TEB skater being treated equally. I have never said otherwise.
[Treating them equally does not automatically mean counting only the SPs. Other ways of treating them equally have been discussed within this thread.]

It matters not to the ISU whether you or I or anyone else on GS talk less or more about Julianne/Charlie or Patrick or Max or any other TEB skater.

It is human nature for people to talk -- talk -- more about the skaters who actually might have a shot at qualifying for the GPF.
Those who already have earned fifteen ranking points have more at stake in terms of possible qualification for the GPF compared to those who have far fewer ranking points. I would say that those who already have earned fifteen points are "more relevant" only as a topic of conversation. Not "more relevant" in terms of what is or is not fair to all the TEB skaters. Only as a topic of conversation.

 

[Lexiglass]

Sorry to butt in, but surely any "fair" proposal would have to acknowledge that TEB doesn't exist in a vacuum, but rather as part of a GP series that culminates in a select few top competitors being invited to the final? Skaters who performed well at previous GP events and had disappointing short programs at TEB are the whole problem - it was a reasonable possibility that their standings would have changed had they had the opportunity to perform a long, but no one can know for sure. However, had they moved up, their chances for making the final would be greatly improved. So a lot is riding on the ISU's decision for those skaters (and frankly, Chan is one of the least at risk because he could make the final even with his SP standing.). Acting as though past GP results don't matter doesn't make sense, IMO. And ultimately, if certain skaters get to advance to the final who didn't "earn" it because TEB couldn't be completed and the ISU gives them special consideration - So what? They still have to perform well at the GPF to earn a medal. So long as no other skaters lose out on the chance to attend at the expense of a TEB skater who didn't perform well, I don't see any problem.

This is what is frustrating to me. The topic of the thread is fair play. It is universally acknowledged what this means: every competitor should be treated equally in so far as possible. Post #1 on this thread (by drivingmissdaisy) is perfect. The OP says, this is my proposal, and this is why I think it would be fair.

If instead a post goes, this is my proposal, and this is why I think it would be "fair to Liza Tuktamysheva" (read "beneficial to Liza Tuktamysheva"), to me that is the very opposite of "fair."

If a selection system is advanced as abstractly "fair," what possible relevance could there be to the fact that Max Aaron won Skate America?