Aaron striving to become more balletic on the ice

[daphenaxa]

given I don't actually know a lot about Max, but I have seen his performances at WTT and I don't think he needs to become more "balletic" (or probably more gracious is what he is aiming for I guess). His very virile style could actually help him a lot I think, to actually differentiate himself from the rest of the field. The public generally loves these kind of skaters that are really powerful and masculine on the ice (i.e Bjou) and I think the judges would reward him as well.
The key for him is consistency. He has to deliver his strong elements. And then he has to work on connection/interpretation of the music and SKATING SKILLS. His edges are not good, his crossovers are BAD. If he can do that, he doesn't need to be more "balletic"
Of course he does what he wants as it is his skating but I disagree with the assessment he seems to have made of his "weaknesses".

 

[karne]

given I don't actually know a lot about Max, but I have seen his performances at WTT and I don't think he needs to become more "balletic" (or probably more gracious is what he is aiming for I guess). His very virile style could actually help him a lot I think, to actually differentiate himself from the rest of the field. The public generally loves these kind of skaters that are really powerful and masculine on the ice (i.e Bjou) and I think the judges would reward him as well.
The key for him is consistency. He has to deliver his strong elements. And then he has to work on connection/interpretation of the music and SKATING SKILLS. His edges are not good, his crossovers are BAD. If he can do that, he doesn't need to be more "balletic"
Of course he does what he wants as it is his skating but I disagree with the assessment he seems to have made of his "weaknesses".

While there is a lot about what he wants, it must also really play with your head when you've been hearing nothing but negativity about your skating and your supposed lack of artistry for years upon years. The ink wasn't even dry on putting his National title in the books when the USFS started parading this "Max needs to work on his artistry" line - the same line he'd been getting since he was fourteen years old.

But also, I am reminded of the TSL interview (back when they were on his bandwagon, before they started kicking him at every opportunity) and when he first spoke about skating to Carmen. He really lit up, and the excitement in his tone was genuine as he spoke about wanting to skate to lesser used parts of the opera and how he had loved it since he was eight years old. I think he has the heart of the artist, but his body sometimes struggles to interpret what the heart wants.

 

[samm22]

While there is a lot about what he wants, it must also really play with your head when you've been hearing nothing but negativity about your skating and your supposed lack of artistry for years upon years. The ink wasn't even dry on putting his National title in the books when the USFS started parading this "Max needs to work on his artistry" line - the same line he'd been getting since he was fourteen years old.

But also, I am reminded of the TSL interview (back when they were on his bandwagon, before they started kicking him at every opportunity) and when he first spoke about skating to Carmen. He really lit up, and the excitement in his tone was genuine as he spoke about wanting to skate to lesser used parts of the opera and how he had loved it since he was eight years old. I think he has the heart of the artist, but his body sometimes struggles to interpret what the heart wants.

While I agree that he has heard way too much of the "Max needs to work on his artistry" line from USFSA, and that his heart is the right place and he WANTS to have better programs, I feel that there is truth to those statements about him having to work on his PCS. The "artistry" that USFSA is always referring to is vague; I think he needs to improve his skating skills, interpretation, and P/E, along with getting better choreography, which I think he is doing with Philip Mills. I feel like, he wanted to convey emotion, but didn't have the vocabulary of movement necessary to do so...But I would not say he had a "supposed" lack of artistry. He DID, but is greatly improving that now going off his skating at the wtt...

 

[daphenaxa]

While there is a lot about what he wants, it must also really play with your head when you've been hearing nothing but negativity about your skating and your supposed lack of artistry for years upon years. The ink wasn't even dry on putting his National title in the books when the USFS started parading this "Max needs to work on his artistry" line - the same line he'd been getting since he was fourteen years old.

But also, I am reminded of the TSL interview (back when they were on his bandwagon, before they started kicking him at every opportunity) and when he first spoke about skating to Carmen. He really lit up, and the excitement in his tone was genuine as he spoke about wanting to skate to lesser used parts of the opera and how he had loved it since he was eight years old. I think he has the heart of the artist, but his body sometimes struggles to interpret what the heart wants.

Yes, I understand it must be really hard for him (or any skater really) to always get the same critics. And that's wonderful he is working on addressing his weaknesses. But that is kinda what i am trying to say. I agree with the statement "Max needs to work on his artistry". But for me it doesn't equal "Max needs to be more balletic". I believe he can be artistic with keeping his own very masculine style (not that one can't be balletic and masculine!) but then improving the interpretation, SS and overall performance. Being artistic doesn't just corresponds to one style. He can be an artist in a lot of different ways.

Also whatever the signification of artistic. It isn't actually a component of the second mark!

 

[Watermelondrea]

He has no future in figure skating, he's like Pogorilaya

 

[samm22]

He has no future in figure skating, he's like Pogorilaya

I don't think that it is worth while to have that attitude about a skater...Max has potential; he needs to improve his consistency and PCS but he has the basis necessary for a successful skater. While I feel as though Pogorilaya's future prospects seem I think that no one should ever write her off like that...you never know, she could have a much better season next year

 

[Sandpiper]

Yes, I understand it must be really hard for him (or any skater really) to always get the same critics. And that's wonderful he is working on addressing his weaknesses. But that is kinda what i am trying to say. I agree with the statement "Max needs to work on his artistry". But for me it doesn't equal "Max needs to be more balletic". I believe he can be artistic with keeping his own very masculine style (not that one can't be balletic and masculine!) but then improving the interpretation, SS and overall performance. Being artistic doesn't just corresponds to one style. He can be an artist in a lot of different ways.

Also whatever the signification of artistic. It isn't actually a component of the second mark!

I agree, balletic isn't the only "artistic" style. But it seems like Max wants to work in that direction, and it seems to inspire him more than going all Elvis Stojko (that route worked for Elvis because his passion was martial arts--that, to him, was art. It wasn't forced upon him by "hockey player"/"jumper" perceptions from outsiders.)

Of course, wanting =/= being able to pull it off (had a similar conversation on Gracie). No use trying to be balletic if that's not actually you. However, I see Max being more comfortable on Black Swan than he ever was on Gladiator or Footloose. I'm cautiously optimistic that he could indeed pull it off, as the program evolves. Plus, I don't think either program is going too far in the ballet direction.

 

[ice coverage]

He has no future in figure skating, he's like Pogorilaya

At the very least, he is guaranteed one GP and he has a bye to U.S Nationals.
So he has a future in skating, not to mention to an enviable past -- unequaled by any current U.S. man except Jeremy. (ETA: I was thinking of the combination of a U.S. title; two GP medals; and two top-ten finishes at Worlds. Jason's combo of Olympic and Worlds placements are much the same, I should add.)

(I purposely am ignoring the snarky intended meaning of your post.)

 

[sabinfire]

I guess I'll take the Pogorilaya one.

She made it to the GP final, and finished on the podium at Euros. Not sure I get the comparison, other than both finishing 4th at their respective Nationals.

Even so, I'd say Max and Anna have a future in skating by virtually anyone's standards.

 

[gmyers]

Max is held to different standard. No one else in America needs quad but he needs quad and artistry. I don't believe he can not do quads at all or fall or ur all his attempts. Because that's extreme regression for him. Of course he technically has a future but where's his future in winning us nationals

 

[mrrice]

Does Tom ever sleep? He has huge bags under his eyes. From what I've heard, he's an intense guy but, he needs a nap.

 

[noskates]

I don't think Max is held to a different standard. The fact remains that since he won the National title his programs and his performances have been relatively sub-standard for a National champion. And it's not fair to say that no one else in America needs a quad when there have been post upon posts and multiple threads and articles online and in print about Jason Brown needing a quad and Josh and Adam needing to land theirs consistently. The standard is the same for all of them but it's Max that loses points for his presentation. Criticizing him for that is no different than criticizing Jason for lack of a quad, Adam for his utter lack of consistency, Josh getting the yips and Jeremy skating with his head instead of his feet. Any one of those men could step up and deliver, but sadly most haven't. I would think if a person had been hearing the same message from multiple sources for 7-8 years that it might be time to listen! Take Adam for instance - he's been hearing for years that he needs to get over his nerves. He had a beautiful performance at Nats this year and looked confident and in control. Step forward a few weeks to Worlds and it was the old Adam again. But he's trying to work on it just like Max is trying to work on his artistry. You only need to look around the world and see the top male skaters to know that a lack of artistry isn't going to get you on the podium. So all things even - clean programs, etc. landed quads, etc. who is going to win? The guy with all of that AND the artistry.

I hope Philip Mills can deliver.

 

[Icey]

I guess Max will get there, but some of his "balletic" moves looked as if he were parodying them. IMHO this is not a good fit for Max, nor is it really necessary.

 

[gmyers]

I don't think Max is held to a different standard. The fact remains that since he won the National title his programs and his performances have been relatively sub-standard for a National champion. And it's not fair to say that no one else in America needs a quad when there have been post upon posts and multiple threads and articles online and in print about Jason Brown needing a quad and Josh and Adam needing to land theirs consistently. The standard is the same for all of them but it's Max that loses points for his presentation. Criticizing him for that is no different than criticizing Jason for lack of a quad, Adam for his utter lack of consistency, Josh getting the yips and Jeremy skating with his head instead of his feet. Any one of those men could step up and deliver, but sadly most haven't. I would think if a person had been hearing the same message from multiple sources for 7-8 years that it might be time to listen! Take Adam for instance - he's been hearing for years that he needs to get over his nerves. He had a beautiful performance at Nats this year and looked confident and in control. Step forward a few weeks to Worlds and it was the old Adam again. But he's trying to work on it just like Max is trying to work on his artistry. You only need to look around the world and see the top male skaters to know that a lack of artistry isn't going to get you on the podium. So all things even - clean programs, etc. landed quads, etc. who is going to win? The guy with all of that AND the artistry.

I hope Philip Mills can deliver.

There is lots of talk about brown needing quads but he has tried it once and its completely irrelevent to us nationals success. Same for Farris and rippon. They have the pcs but don't need quads while aaron has quads but needs Pcs. Pcs is more important in America. Quads are irrelevent in America. In America the Judges prefer pcs and you need pcs and no one cares about quads among the Judges. You can win everything without a quad but you can't win without pcs. Pcs trumps everything. Brown farris and rippon have virtually no quad ability and its totally irrelevent to everyone in us skating establishment. They know who won Olympics in 2010 and quads are just one way to fill up one or two jump slots but pcs is equal to tech and judge whole program. You can just have all the triples. They prefer if you have all the triples clean. They don't care max does 2 or 3 quads. He needs quads all triples and pcs. He is a different standard. He must add but no one else needs to do well in us nationals. They are complete aaron is not. Aaron only has quads. No top 3 American did clean quad in a sp anywhere!!! No one did one a fs cleanly.

 

[Mathman]

T]No top 3 American did clean quad in a sp anywhere!!! No one did one a fs cleanly.

Nah, this is nonsense, The American guys are not goofing off on the quads just so they can be "American propers" or the second coming of Lysacek. They just can't do quads.

 

[noskates]

gmyers - I agree with you to a point about pcs versus quads, but don't write off either Adam's or Josh's quads and my bet is Jason will have one this upcoming season....or at least make attempts at landing one. He can do the rotation easily...just needs the confidence. I would hate to think that the US is only interested in pcs because that will surely eliminate them from any meaningful international competition. Yes there are some that will say we've already eliminated ourselves but I don't believe that for a minute.

But I do think that quads without some level of artistic components linking them to the other movements in a program are not enough in any country!

It's very clear that Max is far from my favorite skater; however, I don't think his team should be trying to turn him into someone he isn't. I think that Max is more than capable of doing any program whatsoever that Elvis Stojko performed and I think Max's jumps are more pleasing to the eye than Elvis' were. JMO. So instead of laying Nessun Dorma on him and making him do arm movements that are not natural to him....come up with an athletic performance and music that suits his style.

 

[karne]

I would think if a person had been hearing the same message from multiple sources for 7-8 years that it might be time to listen!.

What if, though, you did work on it, and you were constantly being told that it was never going to be good enough?

Max's main problem is the snob-nosed, narrow-minded definition of artistry that is seemingly being held up by the USFS as the only definition. Max's Tron SP was wonderful - perfect for him, high energy, accentuating the things he does well, fun, quirky, and he loved it. It was artistic - but it was in the "wrong" style for the TPTB, and ridiculously, it was actually held up as an example of how terribly unartistic he is!

Max says this is what he really truly wants. And I hope with all my heart it is true. But how long can a man sit there and be told his every move is wrong by the very people who are supposed to be supporting him? How long can a man last when the message is always the same, no matter what he tries or how hard he works?

 

[TontoK]

I'm am astonished by Max's new programs. It's not even the "new" season yet, and they look pretty developed. The most promising work I've seen from him in quite a while.

I love Max, but this side of him has taken me by surprise. You may remember that I wanted him to skate to Fleetwood Mac. A short to opera and a long to ballet? I would never have thought it would fly. But they do fly, and I think they can soar!

I've been unfair to want to stuff him in the cubbyhole I had built for him, and I think it's really unfair to be so critical of this direction on one viewing of the programs after they've had less than a month of training.

Max needs powerful music; it looks like it doesn't matter if it is Puccini or Van Halen. He really looks like he's inspired, and isn't that what we hope for all skaters?

 

[noskates]

Well first of all, Max is an adult - not a little kid anymore. He appears to be intelligent and committed to his sport. I don't think he's been beaten down to the point he feels hopeless and I do not believe there is some hidden agenda to persecute him. I believe he knows a lot about his sport and what works and what doesn't just by observing those male skaters around him. Objectively, I haven't seen that much improvement over the past 2 years. Perhaps this will be the year.

"snob-nosed, narrow-minded definition of artistry that is seemingly being held up by the USFS ".....really? Sorry, don't buy that. It isn't just the US that doesn't give him good PCS scores......

 

[TheGrandSophy]

I just watched the Tron program again and, while he jumped well and seemed to enjoy it, not much happened. It felt like the whole first half was just him skating between jumps. Surely that is what doesn't get some of the PCS? So, the fact that these new programs have more choreographic and transitional content will surely help, whether balletic or not.