Alysa Liu Ready for Change

katymay

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Here are my thoughts:

Coaching changes, of any kind, take time to settle in. No matter how talented an individual is, a change in environment and the people you interact with will have psychological effects. Furthermore, although Alysa did begin skating again in mid-June, she was off the ice for three months. Additionally, based on the article, Alysa was "coaching" herself during her time in Delaware. The amount of tribulations this young lady had to endure would have affected anybody and it is charming and enlightening to see that she's still just as bubbly and charismatic. Alysa is an intelligent young lady, she understands the fixation on her jumps, skating skills, etc. Her team, hopefully, will know how to best maneuver the pieces so that by the time 2022 rolls around, everything is set in motion and Alysa will be primed and ready to fight for her spot and placement.

As for the jumps, it seems as though her triple-Axel and quad-Lutz will not be part of her layout until November. Alysa's layout without the ultra-jumps will most likely be what we see next Tuesday, October 6, at the International Selection Pool (ISP) Points Challenge. However, I am optimistic that at least her triple-Axel will become consistent enough to add back into her programs. Alysa grew, yes, but she grew even more between her first and second National titles and her jumps, presentation, and overall skillset improved drastically.

Finally, focusing on skating skills, speed, and presentation with about 18 months to go until the Olympics is a sign that her team is going to address her shortcomings. Furthermore, once Lee is able to physically teach her the jumps, I'm sure her jumps will come back--stronger than ever before.

I wish Alysa and her team the best, she is a bright star and I hope for longevity and success for her.
I'm not as optimistic. IMO Alysa's jumps were more about rotation speed, rotation speed that was possible in part due to being 4 7" to 4 8". She is a charming skater, chock full of personalty, wonderful spins etc., but IMO her jumps were underpowered, more Sotoko than Kaori, Wakaba,Sasha, Aloyna (or even Glenn or Gold). I think you either have powerful legs or you don't. I can't think of a single skater who turned this around. (Maybe someone else can, but I can't)
 

macy

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I'm not as optimistic. IMO Alysa's jumps were more about rotation speed, rotation speed that was possible in part due to being 4 7" to 4 8". She is a charming skater, chock full of personalty, wonderful spins etc., but IMO her jumps were underpowered, more Sotoko than Kaori, Wakaba,Sasha, Aloyna (or even Glenn or Gold). I think you either have powerful legs or you don't. I can't think of a single skater who turned this around. (Maybe someone else can, but I can't)
agree with this, and i hope since her new team is focusing on speed in and out of jumps that this helps her. she has never been a fast skater and what happens when you don't have speed going into a jump? you have to muscle it. wishing the best for her.
 

natsulian

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Bringing this back to Alysa, what things would you like to see from her in terms of improvement?

Mine:
  • Speed
  • Ice coverage
  • Skating skills

I don't find her technique deplorable, but I do think that it needs some fine-tuning (as is the case with everyone). Despite her "growth spurt," she rotates like a "rocket" as someone said and with a little bit more speed and power, I'm sure she is more than capable of regaining her 3A and a quad (maybe not the Lutz but possibly a Toe or Salchow). Fixing her edge on the Flip and pre-rotation issues will also help with the overall steadiness and correctness of her technique as well, but those things come with time. One of my favorite lines from her is when she states that things like this will take time and she doesn't expect results overnight. That is more humble and realistic than 99% of the people who criticize her.
 

macy

you should see her in a crown
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Bringing this back to Alysa, what things would you like to see from her in terms of improvement?

Mine:
  • Speed
  • Ice coverage
  • Skating skills

I don't find her technique deplorable, but I do think that it needs some fine-tuning (as is the case with everyone). Despite her "growth spurt," she rotates like a "rocket" as someone said and with a little bit more speed and power, I'm sure she is more than capable of regaining her 3A and a quad (maybe not the Lutz but possibly a Toe or Salchow). Fixing her edge on the Flip and pre-rotation issues will also help with the overall steadiness and correctness of her technique as well, but those things come with time. One of my favorite lines from her is when she states that things like this will take time and she doesn't expect results overnight. That is more humble and realistic than 99% of the people who criticize her.
same for me. i also think increasing speed going into her jumps will reduce her risk of injury and take some of the stress of her joints. momentum always helps. i hope we see a more "ready for seniors" Alysa this season.
 

Skatesocs

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same for me. i also think increasing speed going into her jumps will reduce her risk of injury and take some of the stress of her joints. momentum always helps. i hope we see a more "ready for seniors" Alysa this season.
Practising stroking/building and maintaining speed will surely also strengthen legs, which could also help achieve better jumps!
 

drivingmissdaisy

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I'm not as optimistic. IMO Alysa's jumps were more about rotation speed, rotation speed that was possible in part due to being 4 7" to 4 8". She is a charming skater, chock full of personalty, wonderful spins etc., but IMO her jumps were underpowered, more Sotoko than Kaori, Wakaba,Sasha, Aloyna (or even Glenn or Gold). I think you either have powerful legs or you don't. I can't think of a single skater who turned this around. (Maybe someone else can, but I can't)

I agree, and I think we see this trend a lot where you have a skater who can do the difficult jumps consistently as a junior, but then that same technique doesn't survive past 15 or 16. It's a stark contrast to someone like Rika, who didn't have good junior results but saw her consistency actually improve as a senior since she didn't have to tinker much with her jumps. Alyssa already had a lot to work on to catch up with the top Russian women without having to worry about losing her hardest jumps, so hopefully she can manage to regain at least the 3A to stay within reach.
 

Backoutside

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Practising stroking/building and maintaining speed will surely also strengthen legs, which could also help achieve better jumps!
"When I was a novice, I stroked as a novice, I jumped as a novice, and I performed as a novice (and won the National Championship), when I become a senior, I will put away childish programs, and I will stroke with power and elegance, I will leap with precision and grace, no longer will wild exuberance be my style. (But I will continue to spin like a gyroscope!)"

Terribly unfair, how some pick apart Alysa's skills as if they don't acknowledge that she won US Seniors as a novice. She may or may not medal in Beijing, but I will look forward to enjoying every developing performance along the way.
 

macy

you should see her in a crown
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"When I was a novice, I stroked as a novice, I jumped as a novice, and I performed as a novice (and won the National Championship), when I become a senior, I will put away childish programs, and I will stroke with power and elegance, I will leap with precision and grace, no longer will wild exuberance be my style. (But I will continue to spin like a gyroscope!)"

Terribly unfair, how some pick apart Alysa's skills as if they don't acknowledge that she won US Seniors as a novice. She may or may not medal in Beijing, but I will look forward to enjoying every developing performance along the way.
sharing constructive criticism doesn't take away anything Alysa has accomplished and i don't think anyone here has ill intentions. she has made history as the youngest ever repeat US ladies champion, that is huge. although, she has very lofty aspirations to be able to compete with the Russians and medal in Beijing and she has a lot of work to do, even to be able to compete with Kamila and Daria on the junior level. she is clearly taking the right steps and i think everyone here is supportive of her.

not to mention, the level of senior ladies skating in the US is nothing like the competition she is up against internationally. Bradie and Mariah can't compete with top ladies either. we are just providing insight as viewers on what she will need to reach her goal.
 

Skatesocs

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"When I was a novice, I stroked as a novice, I jumped as a novice, and I performed as a novice (and won the National Championship), when I become a senior, I will put away childish programs, and I will stroke with power and elegance, I will leap with precision and grace, no longer will wild exuberance be my style. (But I will continue to spin like a gyroscope!)"

Terribly unfair, how some pick apart Alysa's skills as if they don't acknowledge that she won US Seniors as a novice. She may or may not medal in Beijing, but I will look forward to enjoying every developing performance along the way.
Lol? Everyone "jumps, spins, performs, and strokes" as novices. If you continue to jump, spin, perform, and stroke like a novice at seniors, that's an issue.

I'm sure Liu herself is aware of her issues.
 

Backoutside

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Apologies for my failure to make my meaning more clear. Obviously a new poster, I guess I am still learning the language of these threads. I did not mean to suggest that the areas of improvement mentioned today were unfair or unkind. I also applaud the maturity of her self-assessment and her goals for development. After Nat'ls last year she took a lot of unfair heat from many who were duly impressed with Mariah's performance, but maybe a little bitter about the results(?).
I meant to communicate that I thought her weaknesses, such as they are, were owing to her tiny stature and youth, and that I have high hopes for further development with every inch she grows and every bit of strength she develops. Absolutely nothing but support and best wishes.
Is this where I'm supposed to...:slink:
 

katymay

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I agree, and I think we see this trend a lot where you have a skater who can do the difficult jumps consistently as a junior, but then that same technique doesn't survive past 15 or 16. It's a stark contrast to someone like Rika, who didn't have good junior results but saw her consistency actually improve as a senior since she didn't have to tinker much with her jumps. Alyssa already had a lot to work on to catch up with the top Russian women without having to worry about losing her hardest jumps, so hopefully she can manage to regain at least the 3A to stay within reach.
I think it is realistic that she will get the 3A back, certainly. And Alysa really had the fastest rotation speed I've ever seen, so perhaps that will carry her over. As far as her skating skills-it is only speed that is an issue for me, the rest is lovely. I suspect though, that this is the year Mariah Bell will finally win nationals.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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If you're right and Alysa regains the 3A, I think it will be hard for Mariah to win. Alysa should close the PCS gap a little more with an additional year of growth and experience, and being able to do that hard of a jump three times in a competition gives her a huge edge.
 

dancelion21

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If you're right and Alysa regains the 3A, I think it will be hard for Mariah to win. Alysa should close the PCS gap a little more with an additional year of growth and experience, and being able to do that hard of a jump three times in a competition gives her a huge edge.
Even without a 3A or 4Lz, Alysa has a BV advantage on all the US ladies. She routinely does 3-3s in the second half of her program, unlike Bradie and Mariah. Mariah's BV is lower compared to Alysa and Bradie since she (so far) only does one 3-3 in her free program.

Edit: Just looked at the numbers. At Bradie's cleanest skate last season, she had a BV of 63 while Mariah had a BV of 60 at US Nats. Alysa has a BV of 76 at US Nats.
 
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Fool

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Even without a 3A or 4Lz, Alysa has a BV advantage on all the US ladies. She routinely does 3-3s in the second half of her program, unlike Bradie and Mariah. Mariah's BV is lower compared to Alysa and Bradie since she (so far) only does one 3-3 in her free program.

Edit: Just looked at the numbers. At Bradie's cleanest skate last season, she had a BV of 63 while Mariah had a BV of 60 at US Nats. Alysa has a BV of 76 at US Nats.

She had a BV of 74.89 at JGPF, and lost to someone with a BV of 60.91. It can happen and comes down to URs and GOEs.
(I say this as someone who wants her to win for a third time.)
 

drivingmissdaisy

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She had a BV of 74.89 at JGPF, and lost to someone with a BV of 60.91. It can happen and comes down to URs and GOEs.
(I say this as someone who wants her to win for a third time.)

That's a good point. It does seem that Nationals panels are a little more likely to overlook close < for preferred skaters though. If everyone is doing their best jumps, Mariah and Bradie probably deserve higher GOE on those elements, but Alyssa stays close because she tends to have difficult entrances that make up for other deficiencies in the jump (which I don't agree with, but it is what it is).
 

Fool

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That's a good point. It does seem that Nationals panels are a little more likely to overlook close < for preferred skaters though. If everyone is doing their best jumps, Mariah and Bradie probably deserve higher GOE on those elements, but Alyssa stays close because she tends to have difficult entrances that make up for other deficiencies in the jump (which I don't agree with, but it is what it is).
Agreed on national judging (and not just US :)).

My basic observations from last season is that her jump entrances are not exactly a strength (actually the area where I believe she can improve the most on GOE) but I followed juniors more than seniors so I can't really comment on Mariah and Bradie's GOE potential vs Alysa.

The BV thing happened again at Jr. World's btw, I forgot mention above. Alysa had a 72.11 BV and lost to someone with a 60.85 BV.

Anyway, all this relies on at least one quad and two 3As being included in the FS BV, and the latest indication is that those aren't back. I think the experiences from Nationals 2019, JGPF and JWC tells us that with a ~60 BV, she is probably going to lose. BUT I hope and believe she will get her other jumps back, this is just a tough time for all skaters trying to train.
 

trkvy

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Alysa's first appearance in this season:
Triples are UR, combo is 3-2, she looks heavy. Looks like she's done.
 
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