Artist, Performer, or Jumper? Ladies Edition

[jenaj]

Here is John Curry's explanation of artistry. It has nothing to do with extreme flexibility. It does has to do with the the use of the body (and "whole self") in an artistic manner.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0VZyztldo

 

[Amei]

The fault in our stars make me cry and It is not a great movie.

Opinions vary. That's why there is chocolate and vanilla.

 

[CutieP]

Opinions vary. That's why there is chocolate and vanilla.

No way! You're all wrong! Strawberry is way better! Period.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Here is John Curry's explanation of artistry. It has nothing to do with extreme flexibility. It does has to do with the the use of the body (and "whole self") in an artistic manner.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0VZyztldo

Saying someone needs to have extreme flexibility to be an artist is no more silly than saying someone who has extreme flexibility can't be an artist. I don't see what one has to do with the other :confused2:

Obviously being artistic can and will mean different things to different people but for me it's simple. A skater who uses creativity and exploits their own uniqueness to draw a connection between music and movement.

A performer is someone who lives in the moment and draws upon a connection formed between performance and the audience. Someone like Elena Radionova when thinking of current skaters.

 

[CutieP]

.
A performer is someone who lives in the moment and draws upon a connection formed between performance and the audience. Someone like Elena Radionova when thinking of current skaters.

Exactly! She is the "Strawberry kind"

http://img-cdn.jg.jugem.jp/fe7/1412490/20141028_1309405.jpg

 

[jenaj]

Saying someone needs to have extreme flexibility to be an artist is no more silly than saying someone who has extreme flexibility can't be an artist. I don't see what one has to do with the other :confusef2:

Obviously being artistic can and will mean different things to different people but for me it's simple. A skater who uses creativity and exploits their own uniqueness to draw a connection between music and movement.

A performer is someone who lives in the moment and draws upon a connection formed between performance and the audience. Someone like Elena Radionova when thinking of current skaters.

Who said someone with extreme flexibility couldn't be an artist? The point is, it isn't really a part of artistry. It can add to it in terms of stretch and beautiful positions, like Sasha Cohen achieved. But it is not an essential element of artistic skating.

 

[yyyskate]

^^ thanks, I was just about to post that how does she deducted the conclusion that extreme flexibility could not be artistic. or she just simply wanna imply that posters here who disagree with Lip is artistic, blame it on her flexiblity.
Great flexibility allows people to hit a position with easy, but great artistry means that people can utilize flexibility properly, as the music/program artistic direction demands it.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^^ thanks, I was just about to post that how does she deducted the conclusion that extreme flexibility could not be artistic. or she just simply wanna imply that posters here who disagree with Lip is artistic, blame it on her flexiblity.
Great flexibility allows people to hit a position with easy, but great artistry means that people can utilize flexibility properly, as the music/program artistic direction demands it.

I wasn't disagreeing with anyone or assuming anyone disagreed with me. I just noticed people discussing the relavence of flexibility to being an artist and thought I was adding points that were in aggreement with Jenaj.

I was simply objecting earlier to anyone trying to say certain people weren't artistic. It's alive in the eye of the beholder more than it will ever be in the mouth of the critic.

 

[yyyskate]

I wasn't disagreeing with anyone or assuming anyone disagreed with me. I just noticed people discussing the relavence of flexibility to being an artist and thought I was adding points that were in aggreement with Jenaj.

then why dont you just simply say I agree with Jenaj

 

[yyyskate]

I was simply objecting earlier to anyone trying to say certain people weren't artistic. It's alive in the eye of the beholder more than it will ever be in the mouth of the critic.

And what do you wanna justify here using this? that"Lip is artistic, because in my eyes she is."

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

And what do you wanna justify here using this? that"Lip is artistic, because in my eyes she is."

I agree with you

 

[jenaj]

And what do you wanna justify here using this? that"Lip is artistic, because in my eyes she is."

And she was on my list, too!

 

[gkelly]

I guess some people can say you can't pigeon hole skaters because it's a multi-dimensional sport but truth of the matter is, they can be IMO categorised under the three groups stated above.

I'm not really interested in categorizing skaters, largely for the reason you state there.

But if I were, I would also include something like "skater's skater" as an additional category. Someone whose basic skating stands out as exceptional among their peers, even if their jumps or their performance qualities are no more than on par with their closest competitors. Dorothy Hamill, Yuka Sato, and (on the men's side) Patrick Chan come to mind.

 

[OS]

Thread like this always amuse me. It always says more about the poster than the skating or the skaters themselves.

The fact you are discussing some thing so abstract that categorization itself is entirely insufficient. Especially without context without reference to 'specific' work, 'specific' moments, 'specific' reasons. Or in this sport 'specific' choreograph movement, specific 'elements' at 'specific' competitions makes the whole exercise a huge waste of time. Not all art work are equal, poor artist can make great art, great artist can't produce great art all the time. Sometime of the greatest arts are actually a happy accident, circumstance, historical precedence that can elevate a well conceived art into great art, or even poor crass piece of work into something more profound.

For me, work can NEVER be examined in stagnation, it is always its after life that speaks its real worth. Its impact, influence and its reverence. Every artist may have different life experience that makes them unique. but just because you are younger and have less life experience doesn't mean you can't create something that moves and touches people as Julia has done. If Julia has done this when she is 21 even if she had improve her craft, her artistry, her ability to express and present more fully with all the finesse and the polish of a prima ballerina on ice would have done, actually I would say her Schindler's list would be more wholly artificial, mundane and even poor taste short of emotional blackmail that she really should have known better. Artists that are head strong, reckless and single and simple minded mixes with incredible sensitivity and empathy have all the qualities that can create great work, at the same time destroy them if they played safe and attempt to replicate previous success trying too hard. It is also about the right work at the right time at the right age. A teen bopper Carmen and a mature lady Carmen should be expected to be realised differently at different ages even with the exact same choreography. I really doubt John Curry started off going 'That's it I am going to change Men's figure skating forever and create great pieces of artistic performance that is going to be revered in years to come' as oppose to something he likes and find appealing, yet people attach his name to offer something of more elitest leaning in Men's skating decades on. I'd even go as far as to say, some of the greatest art created was never created as art, but some how ends up real, authentic, original, in the moment, transcendent that can touches people and inspire secondary waves of work that takes them on a journey outside their comfort zone and make them think beyond. To continue revisit the work and reference them that makes them ultimately a worthy piece of work. It is only through willingness to experiment, play, take risks, try to diversify and broaden one's horizon and step outside comfort zone can one elevate someone to become an artists. It is also in the delicate balance. I know which skaters appeals to me in all aspects and there are very few in this sport. Especially under the COP system.

 

[skatedreamer]

Saying someone needs to have extreme flexibility to be an artist is no more silly than saying someone who has extreme flexibility can't be an artist. I don't see what one has to do with the other :confused2:

Obviously being artistic can and will mean different things to different people but for me it's simple. A skater who uses creativity and exploits their own uniqueness to draw a connection between music and movement.

A performer is someone who lives in the moment and draws upon a connection formed between performance and the audience. Someone like Elena Radionova when thinking of current skaters.

Totally agree w/ you, S-S (as I almost always do ). Re: your last point, I'd only add that living in the moment is also an essential part of artistry, IMO.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Totally agree w/ you, S-S (as I almost always do ). Re: your last point, I'd only add that living in the moment is also an essential part of artistry, IMO.

As musicians I think we both may struggle to distinguish performing from being artistic. I mean we are both performing artists are we not. The thing is in order to understand and discuss figure skating I think it's necassary to add a few wrinkles on the brain.

I probably should amend my description of performers as skaters who not only draw from the connection with the audience but actually thrive on it.

To use a vocalist to draw a comparison:
Christina Aguilara comes to mind as a fair comparison to the Russians. She is a very talented vocalist but many of the well trained vocalists I've worked with all echo the same thing. Too many vocal runs or in other words....just too busy. I've never heard criticism that she isn't an artist though. Quite the opposite

* I think I need to start a music thread in Le Café.

Last but not least I do apologize to jenaj for leading her to think I was disagreeing with her or putting words in her mouth. yyyskate is correct...I should have stated that I agree and then add my two cents.

 

[Krunchii]

As musicians I think we both may struggle to distinguish performing from being artistic. I mean we are both performing artists are we not. The thing is in order to understand and discuss figure skating I think it's necassary to add a few wrinkles on the brain.

I probably should amend my description of performers as skaters who not only draw from the connection with the audience but actually thrive on it.

To use a vocalist to draw a comparison:
Christina Aguilara comes to mind as a fair comparison to the Russians. She is a very talented vocalist but many of the well trained vocalists I've worked with all echo the same thing. Too many vocal runs or in other words....just too busy. I've never heard criticism that she isn't an artist though. Quite the opposite

* I think I need to start a music thread in Le Café.

Last but not least I do apologize to jenaj for leading her to think I was disagreeing with her or putting words in her mouth. yyyskate is correct...I should have stated that I agree and then add my two cents.

Uhmmmm noooo she is talented performer but her runs are very sloppy, she pushes down her larynx when she sings to give herself a heavier sound which restricts the muscles in her neck. This results in her never having resonance. She does not deserve to be hailed the way that she is. Her vocal technique is a mess and it's obvious that because of it, she's blown out a lot of her upper register. Christina is a performer, she commands the stage, not an artist, at least not to me.

Someone who is actually an artist is Beyonce, you listen to her concerts, her runs hit every note and are as clean as a whistle, she has well supported notes beyond her tessitura, wonderfully developed head voice. She doesn't perform her song the same every time either, she adds embellishments, melismas, changing melodies, even using a harmonic minor scale for a vocal run before. She knows and understands her music while Christina just tries growl, attempt some mediocre runs and riff and scream out high notes and calls it a day.

 

[gotoschool]

I have to admit that I am not big on categories, but I would put Mao in all 3. Nobody has moved me to tears like she has or captivated me as much with their performances and this is combined with the high tech content of her jumps and her natural, subtle and intricate balletic presentation and expression in my favorites: Rach 2, Bells of Moscow, Nocturne, Swan Lake, Liebestraum and Csardas. And "I Got Rhythm" and "Caprice" and "Por Una Cabeza" really bring great joy to me, as do many more. I find her to be marvelous at portraying a wide variety of characters, styles and moods in an unobtrusive and often meditative manner. If a spiral / spinner / and musical stepper category could be created she would also be at the top of that category for me too.

I also think Denise Biellmann fits into all three categories. In my opinion, her 1980 Lake Placid LP performance is so spectacular artistically, musically, technically and in terms of performance for its time that it as if she is as an enlightened one that came down from another planet.

I also like Midori Ito, Kristi Yamaguchi and Lu Chen too much not to put them in all three, but I don't think they were as uniform across all the categories. with Midori being a stronger performer / jumper and Kristi and Lu Chen being stronger performer / artists. Also, Sasha Cohen is a wonderful artist / performer with wonderful spins, spirals, extensions and pure spirit.

 

[Sandpiper]

Uhmmmm noooo she is talented performer but her runs are very sloppy, she pushes down her larynx when she sings to give herself a heavier sound which restricts the muscles in her neck. This results in her never having resonance. She does not deserve to be hailed the way that she is. Her vocal technique is a mess and it's obvious that because of it, she's blown out a lot of her upper register. Christina is a performer, she commands the stage, not an artist, at least not to me.

Someone who is actually an artist is Beyonce, you listen to her concerts, her runs hit every note and are as clean as a whistle, she has well supported notes beyond her tessitura, wonderfully developed head voice. She doesn't perform her song the same every time either, she adds embellishments, melismas, changing melodies, even using a harmonic minor scale for a vocal run before. She knows and understands her music while Christina just tries growl, attempt some mediocre runs and riff and scream out high notes and calls it a day.

The supporting evidence you present are correct, but I'm not sure if I agree with your conclusion. What you're describing is technique, not artistry. One singer--or skater--could very well have better technique than another, but not be as good artistically. It's true, however, that good technique can help a singer/skater better express their artistry (e.g. someone with good jumping technique can probably land their jumps more often, and avoid having falls wreck their skate).

I agree with you that Christina doesn't really have much of a high register. And her technical abilities are overpraised. But--I think she's hailed the way she is precisely because of her growls/screams. Her voice--love it or hate it--is powerful and distinct. Beyonce may very well be a better technical singer, but I can imagine others singing her songs and doing a credible job. However, I don't think anyone can sing Christina's "Fighter" nearly as well as the original.

(For the record, neither of them are my favourite or least favourite singers. I just see merit in both: Christina's edge being her voice itself (skating equivalent = charisma, performance ability), whereas Beyonce is more about how she uses her instrument (skating equivalent = technique or choreography). Is one artistry, and the other not? YMMV, but for me, both can be artistic.)

 

[jenm]

In conclusion: Art or beauty is in the eye of the beholder.