By and large, I like COP, I think.... | Golden Skate

By and large, I like COP, I think....

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Mar 4, 2004
I am an old figure skating fan (graduated HS in 1981-same age as Brian B) and I did lament "the one who stands most wins" scoring. That and the enormous lead that used to be part and parcel at times of the figures (though I do think it added to the skating quality in a way that I didn't guess before they were gone for good). I have to say I enjoyed the variety of spins and footwork I saw in the mens and it was nice to see it count for something. In the past, it seemed like even the good spinners (a la Eldredge) did the same spins over and over because it didn't make a difference. (Plus, it was such a happy mens' podium-noone acting blase. That got to me!)


I agree that Michelle's programs were old school-doughnut spin, spiral and things we have seen before. And the LP music just didn't give you that lift. But-I think this might spur her to adapt. That said, I think Irina deserved to win-definitely a gutsy and clean skate. But-just too beillman based for me. Even her spirals have a Biellman look to them. Am I the only person who only likes the Beillman when done by Denise Beillman (it is awesome then!)?
 
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I just love the idea that you don't need to be in the top 3 or even 4 (a la Sarah Hughes) to win a medal. I can only imagine how disheartening it would be under the old system to be in 5th or 6th place and know that you will not medal even if your performance is stellar unless everyone else in front of you bombs beyond belief. With this system, anything can happen, and I think this leads to a more interesting LP than under the 6.0 system.
 
RealtorGal said:
I just love the idea that you don't need to be in the top 3 or even 4 (a la Sarah Hughes) to win a medal. I can only imagine how disheartening it would be under the old system to be in 5th or 6th place and know that you will not medal even if your performance is stellar unless everyone else in front of you bombs beyond belief. With this system, anything can happen, and I think this leads to a more interesting LP than under the 6.0 system.
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I agree with that. Psychologically, COP is better for skaters to know that even if you are inf 6th and close in points to the leader, that you can fight to go on top, and that surely makes competition a lot more interesting.
 
As I posted on another thread, remember Elena Liashenko won a GP event after finishing in only 7th place after the SP? I thought it was great that she won that event due to a great LP skate. It levels the playing field.
 
IMO, points for each element is an excellent concept... but the "presentation" marks are being thoroughly abused already.
 
I've had a belly full of presentation through the years. It's about time skaters got off their duffs and improved their degree of difficulty. I like the CoP. It's a great little equalizer. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
 
tannisming said:
I've had a belly full of presentation through the years. It's about time skaters got off their duffs and improved their degree of difficulty. I like the CoP. It's a great little equalizer. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
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Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, but do you even know what you're talking about? There's something called PCS that's part of CoP you know. Do you even know why the word "figure" is in figure skating? If presentation is so irrelevant, then why would you care whether if Kwan's Bolero is choreographically "empty"? In fact, take away the music and choreography requirement and just have a jump and spin contest. Who cares about edging, body line and carriage, or control of the blades right?

And how is CoP a great little equalizer? A equalizer of what? CoP sounds good and all in theory, but in practice, it's just the 6.0 system wrapped under a new set of numbers and points. Whatever can be manipulated by the judges in the 6.0 system can still be manipulated under CoP - but even more so, because they now can do it "anonymously" without fear of repercussion.

If figure skating is heading towards the road it is now with CoP, then I can bet you that by next year or maybe two, you will see skaters all doing the same moves when they realize which ones will garner the most base value point. We're already seeing it the spiral department and the galore of triple/double/double jumps [which, IMO, interrupt the flow of the skating]. And by next year, we'll be treated to endless display of Bielmans at the Olympics. Incorporation them into your program does wonder to your level of difficulty as many skaters came to realize this season..and they don't even have to make it look good just as long as it somehow resemble the move that Denise Bielman was famous for.

Sadly, I don't see how CoP will gain new fans for figure skating when most of the sport's true fans still don't understand how the scores were derived, particularly when the numbers are constantly changing on the scoreboard by a factor of this and a factor of that. A sport is no longer enjoyable to watch when you need a calculator and more just basic math skills to have a clue of who stands in what position and how. Eventually, this sport will only be closely watched and monitored by the most devoted fans.
Give it to Speedy to turn off more people to figure skating rather than gaining a wider viewership. :rolleye:
 
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Eventually, this sport will only be closely watched and monitored by the most devoted fans.
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Not really. A lot of longtime fans (including myself) will be moving on soon. This math oriented programs are the reason I got tired of gymnastics.
 
As an old school figure skater, I am slowly warming up to the new judging system. At first, I hated it. I still don't quite understand how the marking works. I was raised on the 6.0 system and still think in those terms.
 
I love the COP for every discipline except pairs. I like the concept of the COP for pairs, it's just that the way they've put the COP together for pairs has made the programs less about unison, choreography, and a program that flows together as it builds and more about getting extra points out of each little section, resulting in choppy programs and increased danger in the lifts.

The COP for pairs needs lots of fixing so that the best aspects of pairs figure skating result and are rewarded. Right now, that's not happening. But IMO, it's a problem in pairs only.

If you understand that the two high and two low marks are thrown out, as well as one random set of marks, then you'll understand that the COP makes it more difficult for judges to manipulate the system, not easier.

I think there is a problem right now that judges are still adapting to the system, with some judges more accurately assessing each component than others. Because of the nature of the way the scores are selected, the scores of some judges who treat the component scores as if they were the old presentation 6.0 system are going to get in there, leaving the viewer to think, "See? Nothing's changed."

The judges and skaters are learning a new language. Give it time. Just from the two GPS and final I've seen, plus these Worlds, I already like the outcomes under the COP much better. They seem more fair, accurate, and based on what the skater does on the ice in that phase of the competition and not so much on reputation. I few skaters got "gifts" but in a sport with subjective judging, you'll never get rid of that completely. Never.

Rgirl
 
Weighing in...

Count me in with the people who think COP is an improvement over 6.0. I also agree that it's still new, and definitely needs some tweaking. I hope some changes are made to ensure that the PCS scores are being evaluated according to the written criteria for each of the five categories.

I really don't buy that FS will lose casual fans because the scoring system is too complex. There are a number of sports I occassionally watch as a casual fan. These sports actually have complex rules as well, but I learn only as much as I care to about the rules, and that's fine. In it's simplest form, a FS competition is about the best skater winning. Lot's of people simply enjoy watching the performances. I'm sure many of these fans (and I know some of them) didn't really understand or care how the scores were derived under 6.0 either.

Gymastics I think is an obvious example being a bit similar to FS. But I think this concept applies broadly to many different sports. Let's take hockey for example. I did not grow up following hockey, but ended up with season tickets when I lived in Chicago. In it's simplest form (of course everyone knows this) it's about getting the puck into the net, and the highest score wins. This is all I knew about hockey when I first went to games. But there is a lot more to it that a casual viewer doesn't know about. Things that result in penalties, situations where only certain players can be in certain places on the ice, etc. One can choose to just watch the game for the goals and root for the favorite team, or take an interest in learning more of the complexities of the rules. Most sports are like this, and have fans ranging from those who take big interest in understanding the details, and those who just know the basics and enjoy watching. If rules that are not immediately obvious to a casual fan cause fan loss, then the only sport left with any fans might be racing.

RGirl, your comments about pairs are very interesting. I love watching pairs, but have focused my early COP education in the singles department. But especially your point about crazily dangerous lifts (especially without any head protection for the lades) makes sense to me.

Just some random thoughts..

DG
 
tannisming said:
I've had a belly full of presentation through the years. It's about time skaters got off their duffs and improved their degree of difficulty. I like the CoP. It's a great little equalizer. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
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Then you must have been very pleased with the ladies event at Moscow. All difficult jumps, no presentation.
 
Mathman said:
Then you must have been very pleased with the ladies event at Moscow. All difficult jumps, no presentation.
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I hope the ladies do next year what some of the men did this year, and get properly rewarded for it. I think Weir, Lambiel, Buttle and others have blended technical difficulty with very interesting overall choreo and presentation, and got rewarded.

DG
 
I'm still learning CoP and truthfully, it's not like I'm diligently learning...it takes a ton of time, plus for me at least part of what it takes is to look at those detailed scoring sheets, re-watch to see what the judges see etc...and I really don't have time for that. In a way, that alone frustrates me because I do want to understand. But, obviously this scoring system was designed for me....so I would say that I really like R-girls comments about the pairs. I also like other comments that note that if you just stack your program with point getters, we might end up with a ton of bielman's or other point getting elements and very little variety, which seems to be a flaw in the overall selling point of CoP which is total package.

I feel like with the exception of Shizuka's program this year, who obviously didn't perform at her best this time, the top 6 women didn't use CoP the way the top men did, the latter having so many interesting transitions and MITF, IMHO....i wonder if someone can comment on that who knows more than I do (like if that is even accurate).

I very much like how much movement there can be in an event...it's exciting. But, there is that second mark thing going on....when/if we start seeing more range in that mark for a skater, I might feel better in this regard. But again...I have tons to learn about this too. But as one example, Peggy kept saying how airy Carolina's skating is....i find her arm movements distracting so i can't see the airy quality (and I believe the people who say she is wow live, i've just never seen her live and don't enjoy her much on tv)....i feel i saw that with Shizuka... Peggy aluded to Kostner's good edges too...etc, again not being their live, my tv view saw that with Shiz; my point is, from watching at home and not fully grasping the PCS categories....I just don't see it, but like i said I'm totally wanting/willing to learn.
 
emma said:
I'm still learning CoP and truthfully, it's not like I'm diligently learning...it takes a ton of time, plus for me at least part of what it takes is to look at those detailed scoring sheets, re-watch to see what the judges see etc...and I really don't have time for that. In a way, that alone frustrates me because I do want to understand. But, obviously this scoring system was designed for me....so I would say that I really like R-girls comments about the pairs. I also like other comments that note that if you just stack your program with point getters, we might end up with a ton of bielman's or other point getting elements and very little variety, which seems to be a flaw in the overall selling point of CoP which is total package.

I feel like with the exception of Shizuka's program this year, who obviously didn't perform at her best this time, the top 6 women didn't use CoP the way the top men did, the latter having so many interesting transitions and MITF, IMHO....i wonder if someone can comment on that who knows more than I do (like if that is even accurate).

I very much like how much movement there can be in an event...it's exciting. But, there is that second mark thing going on....when/if we start seeing more range in that mark for a skater, I might feel better in this regard. But again...I have tons to learn about this too. But as one example, Peggy kept saying how airy Carolina's skating is....i find her arm movements distracting so i can't see the airy quality (and I believe the people who say she is wow live, i've just never seen her live and don't enjoy her much on tv)....i feel i saw that with Shizuka... Peggy aluded to Kostner's good edges too...etc, again not being their live, my tv view saw that with Shiz; my point is, from watching at home and not fully grasping the PCS categories....I just don't see it, but like i said I'm totally wanting/willing to learn.
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Hi Emma. This is just my 2 cents. While FS is my absolute favorite "fan" sport, so I've had the interest to try to learn more about COP, I don't think one has to have an in-depth understanding of COP to enjoy watching competitions. While COP has in-depth criteria to it, as an ardent fan I find it easier to understand and relate to than the old system, which to me was a much larger mystery in judging. (I'll temper that by saying I'm with those who have ??? about the PCS side).

Millions of people enjoy watching the Superbowl every year. And I'm sure a hefty % of them don't know when an illegal man is down the field, or any other number of detailed penalties.

Regardless of the scoring system, FS is a sport where we inherently begin to develop favorites based on style type preferences, home country favorites, etc.. No scoring system could or should change that IMO. And that's OK!! I would say to all fans just relax and enjoy the show. Learn more about COP only if you have the interest and/or time.

I will use Johnny Weir as an example of someone who figured out how to maximize points under COP while putting forward interesting music, choreo, presentation, etc. World's was not his oyster, but having watched his programs in several comps this season, his program is clearly POINT PACKED on the technical side, even without a quad. But he's not over-using any one element, made interesting music choices, and choreo'd / interpreted the heck out of it. (I'd put Buttle in the same category, I just haven't seen as many of his program performances as Weir)

As much as I'm not crazy about Irina's "over-use" of the Bielman position, I can understand (I think) why she does it. Irina does not have the kind of long, leggy body line that a Sasha does. The kinds of spin / spiral positions that are WOW coming from Sasha (just as one example) would not be nearly as "WOW" on Irina just due to nature and how her body is put together. Irina does have the lower back flexibility to get to a Bielman, which many skaters with better natural lines do not. So... she's using her assets to her best advantage. While I'm not crazy about that many Bielmans in a program either, it's what works best for her competetively. I do not blame her for capitalizing on that.

Other competitors like Sasha have proven that there are other ways than the Bielman to get level 3's on spins and spirals. While the Bielman seems the best way for Irina to get there, that's not so for other competitors. And I hope some of the ladies next year take a lesson from some of the men, and figure out how to "point pack" a program on the TES side, and also leverage choreo, interpretation, getting to level 3's with different positions, etc. to maximize overall scores.

I think Irina deserved her win. I don't think she's unbeatable by any stretch. Someone just needs to up the ante and stretch it by matching Irina on the tech side, and out doing her on the PCS categories. I believe that's possible for next year.

Just babbling some more - coming down off of that World's high!! :)

DG
 
I love CoP in theory. Hate it in practice. If I have to see one more inside edge camel I think I'm going to puke. It seems that all the originality is leaving skating, and I don't like that at all. Even the pairs are all doing a similar spiral sequence where they start off with thier leg in front of thier body and move it behind their body. After you've seen it in 80% of the programs it gets boring and uninteresting.

I think the difference between the men and women when it comes to CoP is that for the last 10 years presentation has been the staple of womens skating, while for men it has been the quad. For women you didn't need the technical jumps to win if you had the artisty, but for men it was kinda the opposite. They didn't need the artisty if they had the quad. The women who were on the top before because of thier artisty are pretty much still there now, while the men who were on the top for thier jumps have dropped back a bit allowing those who are more artists to step up in the points.
I don't know if any of this is right, but its just some ramblings on my thoughts.
 
I'm still on a world's high and low too (plushy's withdraw still has me sad for him)...but that was one of my questions...you mentioned Weir and buttle maxing points but with variety...so i guess my question better worded is: do many of the top females have limitations for that very variety? a question you seem to answer with a YES, which is interesting. I don't blame or criticize anyone for smartly racking up the points by using an element that suits them (i.e. bielman), although i would think that there should be some part of the presentation marks that are lower as a result...this is the part i still don't 'get'.

But, as someone who has watched skating with few breaks (which were forced due to living without a tv) since 1976 (and have started adult skating lessons/learning this year)...yes, I'm liking, just not understanding as much as i would like, the new system.
 
emma said:
I'm still on a world's high and low too (plushy's withdraw still has me sad for him)...but that was one of my questions...you mentioned Weir and buttle maxing points but with variety...so i guess my question better worded is: do many of the top females have limitations for that very variety? a question you seem to answer with a YES, which is interesting. I don't blame or criticize anyone for smartly racking up the points by using an element that suits them (i.e. bielman), although i would think that there should be some part of the presentation marks that are lower as a result...this is the part i still don't 'get'.

But, as someone who has watched skating with few breaks (which were forced due to living without a tv) since 1976 (and have started adult skating lessons/learning this year)...yes, I'm liking, just not understanding as much as i would like, the new system.
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Hi Emma. Congratulations are picking up figure skating yourself!! I'm just an armchair quarterback, and not a very good one at that.

My point about Irina's Bielman "over-use" is that I think there are several top ladies who could come along and also achieve level 3 spin / sprial positions with speed and quality, while using a greater variety of positions. I think some lady skater will figure out that the Bielman overuse is nothing more than a competitive weakness on Irina's part, and capitalize with something better and more varied. (IMO, Sasha just might be on the right track, along with a few others like Shiz that didn't skate their best, but are capable of a wide variety of moves)

The COP rules for men and women are essentially the same (with exceptions such as 8 max jump passes for men, 7 for women, time limitations on the programs). So there is nothing I can see limiting the women other than their own imaginations.

DG
 
It has been interesting hearing everyone's views. Regarding Irina and the Biellman, I think it takes away from my general appreciation because I begin to unconsciously enumerate Beillmans and Biellman-like moves: "There's another one" or "Wow, that spiral is almost a Biellman." I do think that she realized (probably with cause) that her ability to do this move would work in her favor in the COP. I still think it looks labored compared to Denise Biellman's version. I don't think I have ever seen anyone do it with that much perfection and flair. It almost looked natural (or supernatural) when she did it. When Plush does it, it looks painful and I am always grateful that he is able to walk after the program.

I have never been crazy about Michelle's spins which she repeats in every program (doughnut and layback with the free leg so low). Gee-I am sounding like Dick B now! I am frightening myself.

I think y'all are right that the COP seems to be more positive in the mens' division and I realized that this comp was the source of my positive impression. It was nice to feel like the quad wasn't the only way to make your mark for a change.
 
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