Calgary Worlds revisited on ESPN2

[Kwanford Wife]

BTW, in interviews reported in the most recent issue of Spotlight of Skating Suiguri says about her Worlds long program, "Today my skating was not so bad, not so good."

But about her fourth place finish at the Olympics, behind sub-par performances by Cohen and Slutskaya, Fumie says,

"To tell you the truth, yes I really felt I should have been on the podium. It is very difficult to accept these marks."

Good for her...

 

[SeaniBu]

"To tell you the truth, yes I really felt I should have been on the podium. It is very difficult to accept these marks."

She knows I am glad she spoke her mind.:agree:

 

[Zuranthium]

BTW, in interviews reported in the most recent issue of Spotlight of Skating Suiguri says about her Worlds long program, "Today my skating was not so bad, not so good."

But about her fourth place finish at the Olympics, behind sub-par performances by Cohen and Slutskaya, Fumie says,

"To tell you the truth, yes I really felt I should have been on the podium. It is very difficult to accept these marks."

Under 6.0 she almost certainly would have gotten the Bronze instead of 4th place. Her PCS marks should have been a bit higher at the Olympics, especially for her excellent short program, and after adding all of the points with my personal grades I would give it to her (just barely!) over Slutskaya. It's very close though...like a half a point difference. Slutskaya's program was more memorable and you could argue her Triple Toe deserved a positive GOE, which then shifts the Bronze to her. I'll have to think about it.

 

[R.D.]

"To tell you the truth, yes I really felt I should have been on the podium. It is very difficult to accept these marks."

I thought so, too. Either Cohen or Slutskaya should have been bumped IMO. (I'd probably pick Cohen)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Alas, the judges are still being stupid. CoP is almost perfect though, imo. They just need to fine tune the GOE values for jumps and change the way combinations are scored a little bit. I would also like to see a rule that allows people to do one extra jumping pass past the max (which would be scored at half value and only a single jump allowed) and to allow one Zayak exception (also scored at half value but not exercised if the skater also takes the extra jump pass) to remove this whole "phantom combo" thing and so that skaters aren't totally penalized for accidently doing 1 too many of a jump (like Irina at 2005 Worlds with her 3 Triple Loops). Falling on a jump should remove it from the Zayak equation as well (ie...if you do your triple lutz and then fall on your second lutz in the second half of the program, it shouldn't take up one of your three combo slots as a "phantom combo").

CoP's theory is almost perfect, imo. One has to consider whether the minds of the judges are perfect? I think the whole Suguri thing at the Olys is a good example that their minds are not in accord. The scores of three judges from a random draw are totally disregarded even if they had points that would have changed the outcome. The Caller's invincibility is another matter and I am aware of the assistants who could challenge a call, but do they?

Some of the influences which affect judging, imo are: exceptional jumping skills which also get undeserved higher scores in other elements; ignoring poor element skills, e.g., sitspins that can't go all the way down; camel spins with really poor free leg positions; necessity to step out of character in order to execute an element carefully. Looking over the GoEs of these elements, I find quite a number of judges' laxed in their awarding points.

Innovation in footwork, moves in the field ,and use of basics are seldom played up in what is termed choreography, which is not originated by the skater but by a team member of the skater yet the skater is judged on someone else's abilities.

However, this is what we got and let's make the best of it.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

Innovation in footwork, moves in the field ,and use of basics are seldom played up in what is termed choreography, which is not originated by the skater but by a team member of the skater yet the skater is judged on someone else's abilities.

Some skaters do their own choreography or at least part of it. In the end, though, the skater themself has to execute it. How well they move to the music should be the basis for judging this program component.

 

[SeaniBu]

How well they move to the music should be the basis for judging this program component.

That really should have been a plus for Fumie, she (well she usally does anyway) "nailed" everything in here Olys particularly, and worlds. The one "flub" in the LP kinda seemed to throw her off, But the SP was Dreamy for me - taps, stroking, jumps, arms, hands (OK I am drooling ) - man that was awesome

 

[Mathman]

Excellent post, Joe, IMHO.

About the responsibiltites of the Caller and his little posse, one suggestion that I have heard is that they could have several officials (maybe three) stationed at different parts of the rink. Sometimes you just don't have the right angle to make a judgment about an under-rotation or a proper take-off edge.

...necessity to step out of character in order to execute an element carefully.

That is a great observation that I hadn't thought of before. That's the problem with those long preparations -- it's not so much "telegraphing" (we already knew what the skater was going to attempt anyway) -- as it is abandoning the musical interpretation for long stretches.

Matt Savoie is an example of a skater who, IMHO, stays true to the conception of the choreography and continues to express the character of the music, even while going for his triple Axel or triple Lutz combinations.

Shizuka Arakawa is another.

MM

 

[hockeyfan228]

That really should have been a plus for Fumie, she (well she usally does anyway) "nailed" everything in here Olys particularly, and worlds. The one "flub" in the LP kinda seemed to throw her off, But the SP was Dreamy for me - taps, stroking, jumps, arms, hands (OK I am drooling ) - man that was awesome

But it was not a plus for Suguri at the Olympics. She was visibly off her music in the straightline step sequence, in the spin where she slowed down noticably to do the catch-foot, and finished off her music at the end. She had more than one flub in the LP on her jumps, with several subpar landings, although she had more jumps of very good quality than Slutskaya did.

 

[hockeyfan228]

That is a great observation that I hadn't thought of before. That's the problem with those long preparations -- it's not so much "telegraphing" (we already knew what the skater was going to attempt anyway) -- as it is abandoning the musical interpretation for long stretches.

If you watch Oksana Bauil's Olympic LP program, in which she entranced judges with her presentation and style, you'll see her go far out of character and rollerblade down the ice in preparation for a couple of her jumps.

I find it more jarring when skaters are in character, and then break character to set up elements, then when they have little character to begin with.

 

[SeaniBu]

But it was not a plus for Suguri at the Olympics. She was visibly off her music in the straightline step sequence....

In the LP.:agree:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Some skaters do their own choreography or at least part of it. In the end, though, the skater themself has to execute it. How well they move to the music should be the basis for judging this program component.

I think you are saying that it is not compulsory for a skater to do their own choreography although the skater is judged for it regardless if the skater paid top dollars for a pro to do it for him/her.

(Moving to music is of primary importance even when doing crossovers.)

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

I think you are saying that it is not compulsory for a skater to do their own choreography although the skater is judged for it regardless if the skater paid top dollars for a pro to do it for him/her.

(Moving to music is of primary importance even when doing crossovers.)

Joe

A crossover is choreography; any movement is choreography. And the skater is the one doing the moving. Paying somebody to create a program for you certainly adds to the maximum level you can achieve (if you can't come up with something better yourself), but in the end the skater is responsible for how their movements are in time with the music. My explaination may sound like the Performance/Execution component but that one should be about how well you do your arm movements and such, along with the general speed, energy, and posture of the performer.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A crossover is choreography; any movement is choreography. And the skater is the one doing the moving. Paying somebody to create a program for you certainly adds to the maximum level you can achieve (if you can't come up with something better yourself), but in the end the skater is responsible for how their movements are in time with the music. My explaination may sound like the Performance/Execution component but that one should be about how well you do your arm movements and such, along with the general speed, energy, and posture of the performer.

I presume you are saying here that choreography is not judged on composition. It is judged on just how well you do whatever you or someone else laid out for you to do.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Zhang throws and lifts Zhang higher in the atmosphere than other men skating in Pairs do with their partners. It's quite obvious.

I'm terribly sorry for questioning such an obvious statement then!!

So you do think having a tall male skater that can therefore lift a partner "higher in the atmosphere" is better???? I'd be interested to know why since height of lift of the ice on an overhead lift doesn't make any sense to me except the twist lift.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

The only problem is that this isn't ordinal judging any more. Points, points, points.

Take away all of Kimmies GOEs, give Fumie a do-over on her doubled jump, and Kimmie is still ahead on base value for the technical elements, 63.4 to 59.2.

As for program component scores, under the CoP they just more or less repeat the tech scores. I'm not saying that's right, its just the way it is under the New Judging System. Do a triple-triple, get a 7.5 in choreography and transitions.

To see this, compare Kimmie's program component scores in the Olympics with Worlds. At the Olympics she got 53.54. At Worlds, 60.23. Did she suddenly develop superior skating skills and a deeper felling for the music in the intervening month?

No, in the Olympics she flubbed both of her triple/triple combos and at Worlds she nailed them. The CoP loves that kind of "choreography and interpretation."

MM

MM i do agree with everythign you've written but i would give Kimmie a bit more credit, in that i think she did deserve slightly higher PCS for her worlds performance than she did for her Olympic LP performance because i think she did a better job with the music. At the Olympics i wasn't convinced she was doing anything more than following someone's instruction on choreogprahy but by worlds some of the movements looked more natural and like things with regards to musicality were beginning to click.

Which is why i think she is a skater that has the capacity to improve an awful lot in that area - throughout the course of one season she has made a marked improvement.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm terribly sorry for questioning such an obvious statement then!!

So you do think having a tall male skater that can therefore lift a partner "higher in the atmosphere" is better???? I'd be interested to know why since height of lift of the ice on an overhead lift doesn't make any sense to me except the twist lift.

Ant

Is Zhang all that tall?

I wouldn't get worked up over this stuff. Different tastes for different people.