Can Mirai Nagasu consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition?

[skateluvr]

You miss my point Becalk, or perhaps are personalizing. I appreciate your thoughts and wonder where you are from, are you a young skater? Are you skating now and deferring school? There is nothing wrong with Michelle's decision at all. I merely point out that America's favorite ( and I mean fans and judges) skater was single minded in her pursuit of Olympic gold. I sincerely doubt she will have some big diplomatic career but she is a driven acheiver who wants a spotlight position. As China becomes the next world superpower she is well positioned (because of her skating fame) to actually get a job with her master's degree. But she would not be who she is the the FS world if she had gone to college and quit after Nagano. She competed so long she became "America's most decorated skater." She is preferred over Sara and Tara by most fans because she was around so long, and always on the podium. Sara and Tara were great champions, who moved on. Sara wante the experience of Ivy league with her peers and deferred a year, as Rachel did. I think they both made best decisions for them. They won the top prize. Just like Yuna, they had enough and other goals.

My post was in support of USA ladies. We always have good skaters. Medals don't mean longevity in the sport anymore anyway. There is one American tour and little network coverage. FS is a sport, not brain surgery as MK loved to say. And this is just a little fs board where people can/should express their opinions. Right?

My point was, really in accord with your opinion, that Rachel is putting school first, as she should to acheive her life goals, and is likely done, I'd say definitely done as a major contender. The Olympics were here finrst hour. She will move on fine. Mirai wanted to go back to the Olympics, and given how Carolina is blooming at 25, and MK competed til 25, I do not understand why Mirai's fans (when she wins-fickle folk) are ready to write her off. We don't know her issues. I wrote in my other post (to you mainly) that I'd love to see her with Yuka or even see her move to Japan, train with Sato's ladies and gents and see if she catches the train again there. I love Mirai and she's a joy to watch when happy/confident. Look at the year Alissa had last year. And she just won SA, though some feel (me too) Caro deserved the gold. Allissa is no teenager. I used to think she should quit but Yuka/Jason were very good change for her. I don't expect to see Alissa compete past this year, but I'm glad she had some stunning, great skates. She really fought for those. Success, as Sandra Bezic said, is not always about the gold medal. Wylie had one great skate and gave so many golden pro performances cause he hung in there for that Olympics in 92. He hit when the boom happened, and I love his skating to the max. Thank God for Youtube!

 

[PolymerBob]

It's hard to explain, but yes. Mirai CAN consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition.....

............... just not all the time.

 

[bekalc]

You miss my point Becalk, or perhaps are personalizing. I appreciate your thoughts and wonder where you are from, are you a young skater? Are you skating now and deferring school? There is nothing wrong with Michelle's decision at all. I merely point out that America's favorite ( and I mean fans and judges) skater was single minded in her pursuit of Olympic gold. I sincerely doubt she will have some big diplomatic career but she is a driven acheiver who wants a spotlight position. As China becomes the next world superpower she is well positioned (because of her skating fame) to actually get a job with her master's degree. But she would not be who she is the the FS world if she had gone to college and quit after Nagano. She competed so long she became "America's most decorated skater." She is preferred over Sara and Tara by most fans because she was around so long, and always on the podium. Sara and Tara were great champions, who moved on. Sara wante the experience of Ivy league with her peers and deferred a year, as Rachel did. I think they both made best decisions for them. They won the top prize. Just like Yuna, they had enough and other goals.

My post was in support of USA ladies. We always have good skaters. Medals don't mean longevity in the sport anymore anyway. There is one American tour and little network coverage. FS is a sport, not brain surgery as MK loved to say. And this is just a little fs board where people can/should express their opinions. Right?

My point was, really in accord with your opinion, that Rachel is putting school first, as she should to acheive her life goals, and is likely done, I'd say definitely done as a major contender. The Olympics were here finrst hour. She will move on fine. Mirai wanted to go back to the Olympics, and given how Carolina is blooming at 25, and MK competed til 25, I do not understand why Mirai's fans (when she wins-fickle folk) are ready to write her off. We don't know her issues. I wrote in my other post (to you mainly) that I'd love to see her with Yuka or even see her move to Japan, train with Sato's ladies and gents and see if she catches the train again there. I love Mirai and she's a joy to watch when happy/confident. Look at the year Alissa had last year. And she just won SA, though some feel (me too) Caro deserved the gold. Allissa is no teenager. I used to think she should quit but Yuka/Jason were very good change for her. I don't expect to see Alissa compete past this year, but I'm glad she had some stunning, great skates. She really fought for those. Success, as Sandra Bezic said, is not always about the gold medal. Wylie had one great skate and gave so many golden pro performances cause he hung in there for that Olympics in 92. He hit when the boom happened, and I love his skating to the max. Thank God for Youtube!

I'm not at all a young skater deferring school. I am a normal person who has a college degree etc that I got right out of high school. A part of me wonders though if it would have been wise to wait a year and see what I wanted to do before I went to college (here nor there). This being said what I support is other people's right to make choices that are good for them.

Its cool to point out that Rachael is going to school, AND I think important that she did well in high school. I don't have an issue with tutoring or going to regular school as long as the focus is on learning. I think its foolish for parents not to insist their young child has a good education, in hopes that they will be a future star. So kudos to Rachael's parents, the Hughes etc for not going that route. But I don't see the problem, for skaters who are already very successful to decide to put off college for awhile. Especially if they can afford to do so. I also don't see the problem with saying I'm done, I want to go to college a la Sarah Hughes.

What I was disagreeing with, was you saying I don't see any of the Japanese skaters going to elite college like Rachael, and Michelle didn't go to college and skate like Rachael. Because it came across as a criticism to me. Michelle may have had tutoring but reports were she took it seriously as young girl, and as she took college eventually seriously. I don't know enough about the Japanese skaters to say if they take their education seriously or not, but them not being in college full time doesn't necessarily mean they don't.

Deciding hey I want to do everything all at once, and then saying and see others aren't; I don't think that is particularly fair. Others may feel like sure they could try an elite school (Michelle would have gotten into Harvard for sure) and elite skating, but maybe thats not a good idea, since I probably won't be able to do my best at both. I see nothing wrong with Michelle or any of them deciding on holding off on college for awhile. In fact one could argue its actually quite wise to realize you can't do both elite college/elite skating super well, and to put one's focus instead on one thing at a time; that its actually common sense. Its cool that Rachael wants to try, but I don't see the point of criticizing others especially someone like Asada/Kwan who are at the top of the sport, to decide to hold off. Although I must agree some like Zhang etc, might be better off going to college now.

 

[prettykeys]

I would say rachael is studying bioengineering, not social studies.

We had a discussion thread about this fairly recently http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...d-or-skating-Rachael-Flatt-chooses-both/page2

Rachael is enrolled in chemical engineering, and apparently taking three courses right now: computational mathematics, writing & rhetoric, and a humanities course. It's definitely good for her, but not nearly as scary-sounding as "full time chemical engineering student". I do get the general point you are trying to make, though: the US girls could be given more understanding on the basis of how difficult this new system is, and Michelle Kwan under the old system has probably spoiled many of the fans and set up very high, unfair expectations for the current flock.

---------------------------------------

Regarding YuNa, I do not consider her a "pure" result of CoP. Both she and Mao started skating when skating was still using the 6.0 system. Mao suffered from this during her development because when the CoP started cracking down on technique on jump takeoffs and rotations, she was unprepared. YuNa's success is as much about her having support from her Canadian mentors as well as the fact that she came from a country with a non-existent skating tradition and few national competitors. That is, she did not feel to the same extent the pressure to push her technical prematurely (as the US girls may have), and her Korean coaches taught her technique supposedly with the help of video tapes of excellent jumpers, not according to "OK, you're good enough, let's move onto the next milestone." Thus, YuNa may have been one of the first skaters to flourish under the CoP, but her training from her earliest years was not deliberately paced and tailor-made to excel at the CoP. The next generation of rising Russian girls might be more properly considered pure CoP stars.

Having said that, I see what jenaj is speculating about how YuNa may have excelled and gone in another direction if she had continued her progress under 6.0. With the allowance of "emptier programs", fewer transitions, simpler steps and less complex spins to master, she may have more closely followed in the wake of her idol, Michelle Kwan (or at least tried to). Regardless, I do slightly prefer CoP despite its faults, and I am glad that YuNa skated during the CoP era. (And as for the Olympics, Mao may have won the SP, but YuNa would have won the LP. Mao's two 3axel's in the LP and 5 triples--with 3 different triples--may have been comparable to YuNa's 6 triples with 3-3 and 4 different triples...but YuNa's Gershwin would beat out Mao's Bells in Presentation. Not delusional at all.)

 

[brightphoton]

It's rare to do well in college and still be an elite skater. Sarah Hughes isn't remembered for anything other than her surprise Olympic gold. When's the last time someone said, my favorite LP is Sarah Hughes's ________. Emily is only famous for being Sarah's sister.

 

[cosmos]

With all due respect back at you, many people don't see CoP as great. Yuna Kim was an "awkward" (so said Orser) jumping talent brought to bloom by great Canadian skater/coach/choreographers. She would excel under 6.0 ,CoP or any thing they threw at her. A great skater, a strong drive to win made her a champion. Brian Orser can take lots of credit, not the scoring system that rewarded her.

YuNa wasn't awkward at all. She was brilliant in 2006 SC, TEB and GPF. It is hard to say her great Tango de Roxanne performance was the result of the Canadian caoching. She spent only three weeks in Canada before 2007 Worlds.

I don't give credit to Orser alone. I give credits to the whole team of Orser and two Wilsons.

Regarding YuNa, I do not consider her a "pure" result of CoP. Both she and Mao started skating when skating was still using the 6.0 system. Mao suffered from this during her development because when the CoP started cracking down on technique on jump takeoffs and rotations, she was unprepared. YuNa's success is as much about her having support from her Canadian mentors as well as the fact that she came from a country with a non-existent skating tradition and few national competitors. That is, she did not feel to the same extent the pressure to push her technical prematurely (as the US girls may have), and her Korean coaches taught her technique supposedly with the help of video tapes of excellent jumpers, not according to "OK, you're good enough, let's move onto the next milestone." Thus, YuNa may have been one of the first skaters to flourish under the CoP, but her training from her earliest years was not deliberately paced and tailor-made to excel at the CoP. The next generation of rising Russian girls might be more properly considered pure CoP stars.

Having said that, I see what jenaj is speculating about how YuNa may have excelled and gone in another direction if she had continued her progress under 6.0. With the allowance of "emptier programs", fewer transitions, simpler steps and less complex spins to master, she may have more closely followed in the wake of her idol, Michelle Kwan (or at least tried to). Regardless, I do slightly prefer CoP despite its faults, and I am glad that YuNa skated during the CoP era. (And as for the Olympics, Mao may have won the SP, but YuNa would have won the LP. Mao's two 3axel's in the LP and 5 triples--with 3 different triples--may have been comparable to YuNa's 6 triples with 3-3 and 4 different triples...but YuNa's Gershwin would beat out Mao's Bells in Presentation. Not delusional at all.)

Well wriiten. Yes, YuNa had absolutely no reason to hurry to learn prematurely.

I am also glad YuNa skated under CoP. People had seen 6.0 programs for decades. Why not move to new system, new figure skating.

 

[skateluvr]

All good points, esp regarding Yuna, but Mirai was the topic and it seems she is being given up on by her fans round the world. She will, I hope, not get discouraged. She's too good to quit;I hope she does not read the boards, LOL. She needs our support.

 

[mskater93]

She doesn't need support as much as she needs a crow bar for a cranium-rectal extraction. Sorry, but someone who has as much skill and ability as Mirai should NOT be making these kinds of errors. If she hasn't learned to focus in the moment, she needs a sports psych. If she doesn't run her programs in practice, she needs to start. If she doesn't love the sport to the point where she can give it everything, she needs to quit. When a skater looks like they hate the sport and are sleep walking through a program, fans ARE going to give up and lower level skaters who look up to that skater are going to look elsewhere for inspiration.

 

[kwanatic]

^^I agree.

Mirai does full run-throughs of her program; it's kind of a Frank Carroll policy--run the program, even with mistakes, from start to finish. I don't think Mirai's problem is her coaching or her physical condition (she rotated all but one jump)...it's completely mental. I do think her LP this year is crap, but a performer can make crap look good. Mirai just looks dead out there...no life whatsoever.

I'm to the point now where she's starting to annoy me. How does someone have that much talent and constantly doubt themselves? Mirai's self-esteem and confidence are just too low for her to be a skater. You have to believe in yourself and your talent...it's obvious she doesn't. I have a hard time cheering for her when she performs like that and then says the things she said. Her self-deprecating nature was cute when she was 15, but she's an adult now. She has to start owning up to who she is and what kind of skater she is. We're at that point where even her fans (I'm a big Mirai fan) are starting to lose faith in her...and that's sad.:disapp:

It's like a worse case of Sasha Cohen. Sasha never had the nerve to step up and win a title when it was in front of her. But even when her jumps were going south (which happened a lot) she never dropped the program. She continued to perform--she didn't go into dead-inside zombie mode like Mirai does. Sasha carried on with the program and that usually earned her a medal. If Mirai hadn't given up on the program like she did at SC, had she just kept up the energy and continued to give it her all, she probably would have scored a lot better than what she did.

She makes a mistake and then gives up...essentially, that makes her a bit of a quitter...and that sucks.:scowl:

It's not like she can't put together two clean programs; she's done it before. The bigger question is will Mirai ever believe in herself enough to go out there and skate like she deserves to be the gold medalist she claims to want to be? She says she wants to be the best but to me, it seems like she's almost afraid to be the best...:sheesh:

 

[fallingsk8er]

I'm hoping she just had a bad day and wasnt feeling it. I watched that skate several times and yeah, it was a little flat but not a total disaster for a first competition. Some of the elements were actually pretty good. I'm betting she'll bounce back at the next GP event. Either way, is anyone seriously counting her out of a medal at Nationals?

 

[Spun Silver]

I agree. I rewatched it too and it wasn't so much the disaster it's being painted as, as a performance that felt like a runthrough. But in the moment, it was shocking.

 

[Jammers]

Shizuka is not skating currently, and thanx for info.

I would say rachael is studying bioengineering, not social studies. I did love Shizuka and still watch her triple-triple-triple on youtube. She is so gorgeous...hard to say who I love in japan over the years most but Shizuka as an amateur (sad she did not do all she could have at Oly tho, she played it safe knowing sasha would prolly fall), Yuka Yuka Yuka as a pro, and amazing little woodsprite Mao who is ususally so delightful, plus her triple axels. So I love Japan's skaters, lately Akiko and Haruka. The depth is amazing and japanese ladies have incredible drive...Oh, I almost forgot Miki Ando!.... I expect japanese ladies to take at least one spot at next Olympics, it looks like a battle between japanese ladies and russian baby ballerinas.

Sadly I don't see an american or even european on that podium, but we have good skaters. Ashley Wagner will I hope make it through, and Agnes will be a champion. Something is up with Mirai, I think the change in her body and her feeling she is not supported as two issues. But she's amazing when on and she has it all. She just needs to decide. Alissa could be number 1 with her talents but she is skittish, not a competitor.

Still, as I said, currently, no one else but Rachel Flatt is trying to do both at THAT academic level. When she was really able to skate full time, she did two fabulous Olympics routines. She is a USA champion and that is quite an accomplishment.

The point about Michelle was she had tutors since age 13 to eat and breathe skating. She did not even complete a semester at 18. She went back to school at 25 after she no longer was in winning form. People should not compare student/athletes to just plain athletes. But everyone in USA laments MK is gone, poor us, Sasha is gone. Everyone used to go nuts over Sasha not having competition killer instinct like MK, KW etc.

I would say the japanese work ethic is incredible and I don't know if any female skater here in USA has the drive of the top Japanese skaters, with the possible exception of Ashley Wagner. She has not gotten her due in USA yet, but if she remains uninjured, this girl will be a force. I loved her skates and I think she is world class. Agnes is a great competitor and I can't wait to see her. Why should we Americans bash our skaters when so many others do it for us? Look at the canadian girls. Awful. and they are born on skates. One of my favorites for years was Jro. But Canada should have a deep ladies field and they do not. I think we in US can forget Caroline Zhang tho USFSA does not want to. 1 year from now we may have a new star ala Tara, Sarah, Michelle, Sasha, Jenny, Angela, Nancy, Roz, Yama...we won't be off the map for long. We have had two top ice dance teams, and a new world/olympic men's champion. It is not likely we will ever be able to compete with Japan because we do not have the work ethic, the sacrificial attitude, the whole cultural thing. But we do have talented ladies. Mirai needs a new coach, I agree. I'd like to see her with Brian Orser. She is every bit as talented as Yuna and look what Brian and his choreographer did with her. I think Mirai never realized how dedicated she must be with all that natural talent. If she puts in the work, maybe she will be world champion. Maybe she should train under Yuka Sato or even better, train in Japan under Mr Sato. THAT would require her total dedication.

I'm not giving up until she does.

That is nonsense that US Ladies can't compete with the Japanese ladies. Lets see them dominate the Ladies division like the US did for over 50 years. The US ladies were bound to go through a slump after all the great skaters we've had. All it will take is one great US lady to bring us back.

 

[blue dog]

That is nonsense that US Ladies can't compete with the Japanese ladies. Lets see them dominate the Ladies division like the US did for over 50 years. The US ladies were bound to go through a slump after all the great skaters we've had. All it will take is one great US lady to bring us back.

Agreed. Also, these girls learn from one another. A lot of Japanese girls looked up not only to Midori and Shizuka, but to Kristi and Michelle, as well. In the future, we'll have Americans AND Canadians who will most likely say they looked up to Mao, Miki, Mirai, Yu Na, etc.

 

[Jammers]

Umm Mirai is american.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That is nonsense that US Ladies can't compete with the Japanese ladies. Lets see them dominate the Ladies division like the US did for over 50 years. The US ladies were bound to go through a slump after all the great skaters we've had. All it will take is one great US lady to bring us back.

I also agree. Even if women from different countries tend to have slightly different builds that may help with rotation in the air, you had a skater like Tonya Harding with wide hips who matched Midori Ito jump-for-jump. So physically there is no reason for US women to struggle, and we certainly have a (relatively) supportive federation with the resources to create the next star.

But I don't think that next great US skater is in this generation of senior ladies. Mirai had a fantastic start to her career but her senior results have not matched her junior successes. Alyssa is a bit of late bloomer and, if she is to win a world title, it has to be this year. Other than those two I don't know of anyone else who has the ability to medal at worlds.

 

[blue dog]

Umm Mirai is american.

And Yu-Na is Korean. I know that. I was merely citing examples that other skaters will one day look up to those women, regardless of nationality.

I also agree. Even if women from different countries tend to have slightly different builds that may help with rotation in the air, you had a skater like Tonya Harding with wide hips who matched Midori Ito jump-for-jump. So physically there is no reason for US women to struggle, and we certainly have a (relatively) supportive federation with the resources to create the next star.

But I don't think that next great US skater is in this generation of senior ladies. Mirai had a fantastic start to her career but her senior results have not matched her junior successes. Alyssa is a bit of late bloomer and, if she is to win a world title, it has to be this year. Other than those two I don't know of anyone else who has the ability to medal at worlds.

I think it could be within this generation. I think the women just have to overcome themselves. They can all complete the elements--they just have to find someone who will help them with the psychological aspect.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think it could be within this generation. I think the women just have to overcome themselves. They can all complete the elements--they just have to find someone who will help them with the psychological aspect.

It's a tough challenge to teach the psychological aspect, that's where I think the current US ladies have a problem. Even those that overcame that obstacle (Butyrskaya comes to mind) were generally in the mix, winning multiple medals at Worlds and/or GP events before reaching the pinnacle of the sport. I see our best ladies as Nicole Bobeks; they can win a program here or there but won't be able to close the deal at a big event when it counts. And like Bobek, these ladies can finish first or last in a competition. This is a stark contrast to the Kwans, Cohens, and other great US ladies who rarely finished out of the medals at any competition.

 

[skateluvr]

Daisy, Ashley Wagner can medal at worlds with consistency, fire, great programs. Maybe bronze. Remember Laura Lepisto? Ashley is better and wants it badly. Agnes Zawadski is a very good skater who will improve a lot in presentation. And there may be an unknown coming in. Tara hit like a tornado.

Still, the Asian women have advantages, 1) body type 2) cultural work ethic, hatred of failure 3) amazingly sacrificial families. Is it just coincidence that USA's top skater was Asian? Tiffany Chin, Yamaguchi, AP Mc Dermott (georgeous girl who didn't want it either it appeared). Mirai Nagasu, fourth in her Olympics at 16. Asian Americans do very well it seems. But Japan is so deep, I expect they will dominate. Maybe someday, Korea will be like Japan because of Yuna Kim's story and their newfound adoration of all things FS. Of course we can have another star, but look at the trend towards smaller skaters, even in the men's division. Tall men still do well in ice dance and of course in pairs, but FS singles is one sport where the short have an advantage, as Frank just said about little Liza and he is getting rammed for stating the truth, in another thread.

5 foot one inch is the average lady and we all know in ballet, gymnastics, FS, etc, thin is preferred. People are dying to be thin. People get points from judges in Ladies based on body beautiful and pretty face. Let us not forget the beauty aspect of ladies skating. It's very important how you look as you do your triples. I think it's annoying but it's a part of the "package" they love to see, commentators, judges and yes, us.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^^^ of the three Olympics Ladies medalist, Rochette is the littlest at 5'2" while Kim and Asada are 5'4", as is Miki Ando. Chinese Pairs girls are the tallest in the world except for new comer Sui. Asian Americans Christina Gao and Caroline Zhang are 5'5" (as is Czisny) and Mirai is 5'3". Not all Asia Ladies are tiny and none of the current top Ladies are 5'1", young teenagers not withstanding.

As for Men, the shortest ones coming to mind immediately are Scott Hamilton and Shawn Sawyer, not the Asians. Kurt Browning is about Patrick Chan's height, maybe slightly shorter. Then we have tall Men like Lysacek and Sandhu. All in all, I don't think height/body types within a reasonable range determine success to any significant degree.

 

[OS]

UHmmm...I dying to hear your explanation when the Russian babies begin to dominate in the next couple of years, what other theory/excuses are you going to come up with next? As an Asian woman, I am not sure whether to be flattered or irritated by this theory.

While I agree with your point about work ethics, but surely these are universal values anyone has to follow if they truly want to become a champion. I do believe there are many skaters and skater's family out there who have tried their hardest but may be has not made it are not given the credit here, e.g that Turkish skater at the Olympics, their family was mentioned to sacrificed almost everything. I read today somewhere (post by senorita?) that Liza Tukt. has to travel 10 hours by train by herself for training in St. Petersburg many times a month, now that is incredible dedication for a 14 years old, and knowing that I'd applaud her even more next time she do well.

If Asian women truly have an advantage, then why hasn't China with a population of 1.3 billion produce anyone note worthy skaters since Chen Lu?

Actually physically, financially, politically and culturally, it is very likely western women have the better advantage, especially if you come from a country with a history of this sport namely: US, Russia, Europe, and Japan, who has the established infra structure, powerful federation, training knowledge, facilities and financial support already in place.

Physical presentation matters, only because it is the figure in the 'figure skating' get judged by human beings. But I doubt Asian bodies are the preferred shape, because the main stream sense of aesthetic beauty has always been dominated by the Hollywood film/tv stars, Supermodels and not many of them are in fact Asian Just like world's top ballerinas, Miss World, Miss Universe etc., Asian has always been the minority. So at the end of the day, it is all a fair game.