Caroline Zhang Article

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My impression was always that the edge at TAKE-OFF had to be correct. That doesn't include the preparation time for the jump.

That's what it should be. Liashenko brazenly showed off her true lutz, and with all the flutzing, I have forgiven Liashenko for the long preparation. The correct edge take-off is tantamount to the jump otherwise one is not doing what the jump calls for.

 

[mskater93]

My impression was always that the edge at TAKE-OFF had to be correct. That doesn't include the preparation time for the jump.

Yes, but if you are wobbling back and forth between inner and outer and I were the caller, I'd probably give you a "!" too because I'd be unsure if you were on the correct edge at takeoff. The "!" is cautionary for the judges to use their discretion on whether they believe it's bad, not a mandatory deduction like "e" is.

 

[LeCygne]

Yes, but if you are wobbling back and forth between inner and outer and I were the caller, I'd probably give you a "!" too because I'd be unsure if you were on the correct edge at takeoff. The "!" is cautionary for the judges to use their discretion on whether they believe it's bad, not a mandatory deduction like "e" is.

I re-watched Caroline's Nationals LP and I really didn't see a ton of wobbling back and forth but whatever... Correct me if I'm wrong but very few skaters stay on an outside edge for the ENTIRE backward lutz preparation. Doesn't the outside edge customarily happen right before takeoff? That's why skaters don't toepick straight backwards but a bit to the side to assist the outside edge.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I re-watched Caroline's Nationals LP and I really didn't see a ton of wobbling back and forth but whatever... Correct me if I'm wrong but very few skaters stay on an outside edge for the ENTIRE backward lutz preparation. Doesn't the outside edge customarily happen right before takeoff? That's why skaters don't toepick straight backwards but a bit to the side to assist the outside edge.

I didn't notice any wobbling either but I was annoyed with the mule kick.

Yes, a skater must take off on the back outside edge otherwise it's like a flip which gives that skater an easier air turn. IMHO, it should be a -2 deduction, if not a total 0 for not doing the jump as it should be.However, there are strong forces, especially from coaches who have students who can not execute a true lutz and those coaches lobby to keep it as an attempted proper take off.

 

[LeCygne]

Right, so my point was that Caroline shouldn't have gotten those edge warnings for switching edges during preparation because that's supposed to happen. Even Yu-na Kim's textbook lutz starts from an inside and switches to outside right before takeoff.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, a skater must take off on the back outside edge otherwise it's like a flip which gives that skater an easier air turn. IMHO, it should be a -2 deduction...

The ISU is listening to you, Joe. The penalty for a wrong edge take-off is -1 to -3, depending on length and severity of the wrong edge. :agree:

 

[AwesomeIce]

I re-watched Caroline's Nationals LP and I really didn't see a ton of wobbling back and forth but whatever... Correct me if I'm wrong but very few skaters stay on an outside edge for the ENTIRE backward lutz preparation. Doesn't the outside edge customarily happen right before takeoff? That's why skaters don't toepick straight backwards but a bit to the side to assist the outside edge.

A properly done lutz does stay on an outside edge for the entire preparatory edge. The edge may deepen right before take-off, as the skater really bends the knee prior to the pick. It may be that few skaters stay on the outside edge for the entire preparation, but that does not make it correct. It means, like I said before, that the skater is not able to control their edge going into the jump.

 

[herios]

Right, so my point was that Caroline shouldn't have gotten those edge warnings for switching edges during preparation because that's supposed to happen. Even Yu-na Kim's textbook lutz starts from an inside and switches to outside right before takeoff.

You are kidding right? Supposed to happen since when? First of all, after wobbling Caroline always takes off from the wrong edge on her LUTZ that is why she always gets the edge call for that jump. She basically doesn't do it correctly.
And yes, there are quite many who do not wobble and take off from the correct edge. To check out a correct one, rewatch Rochette's LP. It is true it took her a few years to fix it, but she succeeded to have a very good one.
And before there wee many who had a good outside edge. (See Slutskaya, Arakawa for example).
Reality is, this rule was not applied strictly before 2007. Under today's rules, Sarah Hughes or Tara Lipinski would have not been olympic champions with those routines, both of them were clear flutzers

 

[AwesomeIce]

You are kidding right? Supposed to happen since when? First of all, after wobbling Caroline always takes off from the wrong edge on her LUTZ that is why she always gets the edge call for that jump. She basically doesn't do it correctly.
And yes, there are quite many who do not wobble and take off from the correct edge. To check out a correct one, rewatch Rochette's LP. It is true it took her a few years to fix it, but she succeeded to have a very good one.
And before there wee many who had a good outside edge. (See Slutskaya, Arakawa for example).
Reality is, this rule was not applied strictly before 2007. Under today's rules, Sarah Hughes or Tara Lipinski would have not been olympic champions with those routines, both of them were clear flutzers

I totally agree with you on the point that Caroline does not do her jumps correctly.

On the issue of Tara/Sarah winning or not if flutzing were penalized back then, it is hard to say because it is not like either of them were the only flutzers at the times they were competing. They may have gotten the ! or e deductions, but so would a lot of other ladies, so it may have evened out at still turned out with the same results. Now, if underrotations were judged then the way they are now, Sarah would not have won as I think she clearly underrotated most of her triples while I don't think either Michelle or Irina did.

 

[antmanb]

A properly done lutz does stay on an outside edge for the entire preparatory edge. The edge may deepen right before take-off, as the skater really bends the knee prior to the pick. It may be that few skaters stay on the outside edge for the entire preparation, but that does not make it correct. It means, like I said before, that the skater is not able to control their edge going into the jump.

That's not necessarily true at all - the skater has to be on an outside edge for the take off of the jump only. There are many ways in which skaters go into the lutz, more so the men who tend to precede it with steps in the SP. There is a whole technique of teaching the triple lutz where the skaters goes into the jump on a flat or a very shallow inside edge before bending the skating knee and pulling hard onto the outside edge to really get a hard counter-rotation to help the pop and rotation of the jump.

Ant

 

[HCOSurfer]

A properly done lutz does stay on an outside edge for the entire preparatory edge. The edge may deepen right before take-off, as the skater really bends the knee prior to the pick. It may be that few skaters stay on the outside edge for the entire preparation, but that does not make it correct. It means, like I said before, that the skater is not able to control their edge going into the jump.

So then I guess Yuna's lutz at the 1:20ish mark isnt a proper lutz then :sheesh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICzURSZlAvU

 

[LeCygne]

You are kidding right? Supposed to happen since when? First of all, after wobbling Caroline always takes off from the wrong edge on her LUTZ that is why she always gets the edge call for that jump. She basically doesn't do it correctly.

I'm not denying that Caroline doesn't do her lutz properly. She definitely flutzes, and that's not what I'm concerned about. It's her flip that shouldn't have gotten an edge call for "wobbling". I think it's clear that she does take off from an inside edge on her flip, and that's the only thing that should matter in terms of edge calls.

So then I guess Yuna's lutz at the 1:20ish mark isnt a proper lutz then :sheesh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICzURSZlAvU

Thank you. If you really want to be nit-picky, well then Yu-Na "wobbles" as well.

 

[herios]

That's not necessarily true at all - the skater has to be on an outside edge for the take off of the jump only. There are many ways in which skaters go into the lutz, more so the men who tend to precede it with steps in the SP. There is a whole technique of teaching the triple lutz where the skaters goes into the jump on a flat or a very shallow inside edge before bending the skating knee and pulling hard onto the outside edge to really get a hard counter-rotation to help the pop and rotation of the jump.

Ant

Correct, among the ladies I just mentioned Slutskaya who had an unusual set-up for the lutz among the ladies, she wasn't gliding backwards with a long set up like the rest, rather turning (similar to the toe loop) and take off right away from the outside edge. But she was a strong athlete, she came back with this tachnique after she had that subpar season in 1999, before she was doing it like all the others.

 

[Mathman]

Aboiut "wobbly" entrances, IIRC there was a new line added this year to the GOE instructions providing a penalty of -1 to -2 for "poor take-off."

This is different and separate from "wrong edge take-off." Maybe a wobbly approach falls under that criterion.

 

[mskater93]

I'm not denying that Caroline doesn't do her lutz properly. She definitely flutzes, and that's not what I'm concerned about. It's her flip that shouldn't have gotten an edge call for "wobbling". I think it's clear that she does take off from an inside edge on her flip, and that's the only thing that should matter in terms of edge calls.

A "!" is not an wrong entry edge call - a "!" is a caution from the tech panel that the entry should be reviewed by the judge and proper GOEs given (and for "!" calls, there have been skaters who have received GOEs all over the place from +2 to -2 on the same jump). An "e" on the other hand IS an wrong entry call and the final GOE must be negative.

For Caroline, I stand by my statement that a "!" is an appropriate call on both the flip and the Lutz because she is back and forth between an inner and an outer as she winds up both jumps if one is being generous on the tech panel. A "!" on the flip and an "e" on the Lutz are probably more inline with what she normally does. Just because a tech team doesn't call it, doesn't mean it isn't so...

Oh, and for a beautiful Lutz entry from a deep outside edge, go check out Volchkova

 

[champs]

I don't know for sure, but my guess is Slovakia's Igor Matsipura who trains at the rink in Artesia. Sorry for the OT.

Thanks Sylvia!! I don't remember who he was sitting with at last month's Europeans, but you reminded me of him with Michelle Kwan's sister at the K&C at Skate America this season, so I suppose he's coached by Karen Kwan at Artesia, correct? I think you are spot on, thanks for the help! :agree:

ETA: Oops, sorry for interrupting the flow of the heated discussion with something totally OT, I didn't even pay attention...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Aboiut "wobbly" entrances, IIRC there was a new line added this year to the GOE instructions providing a penalty of -1 to -2 for "poor take-off."

This is different and separate from "wrong edge take-off." Maybe a wobbly approach falls under that criterion.

I think both wobbly entrances and wets are what awsomice says are take-offs without control. Have you read anything on 'control'? At the senior level, it should not be a problem, but if it is, it is serious.

 

[Mathman]

Have you read anything on 'control'? At the senior level, it should not be a problem, but if it is, it is serious.

I just checked out the rules again. (BTW, if you go to the ISU page on "ISU judging" you can download the programs ISUScoresFS, ISUCalcFS, and ISUReplayFS. Then you can score right along with the judges! )

The word "control" does not appear in the description of GOEs, either positive or negative, for jumps. More startling, it does not appear in the description of GOEs for spirals, either. (?)

But "edge control" is the number one thing that is scored in the "Skating Skills" program component.

So evidently there is no deduction if you do not exhibit good edge control on a particular element, but the judges are supposed to give you one overall program score for this basic skill in the PCSs.

I think that even at the championship level, some skaters (Kurt Browning, for instance) have better edge control than others. Evidently "Skating Skills" is where the judges have a chance to reward them for it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But "edge control" is the number one thing that is scored in the "Skating Skills" program component.[/UNQUOTE]

Facinating. So if a skater has a wrong edge take-off, it is penalized in the Tech and presumably in the PC. I said presumably because that can not be checked. The old proviso of 'there are other factors to consider" applies. No?

 

[Mathman]

^ I think the idea in principle is that the wrong edge take-off (not a wobbly approach, but actually taking off from the wrong edge) recieves a deduction in GOE for that element on the TES side.

Wobbly edges generally, whether leading up to a jump or just while you are skating along, is a contributing factor -- the most important one -- to the Skating Skills component. As you say, it is hard to tell because it is mixed in with other "skating skills" such as ice coverage and power stroking.

I don't know what the judges are supposed to do with the Skating Skills component in the case where the skater makes a slew of already-punished errors on elements, such as multiple falls, wrong-edge take-offs, step outs, two foots, and underrotation. But sometimes we do see a program with technical errors nevertheless score high in the Skating Skills component (Alissa Czisny for instance.)

Edited to add: PS. Since this is a Caroline Zhang thread, I think the place where her high kick is penalized is in the lack of positive GOEs that she otherwise might get on her Lutz and flip.

This flaw is not a "skating skill," but it is not a technical "error" either. It's just that her technique is not up to the "textbook" quality that we expect at the championship senior level.

Perhaps it detracts from the Performance/execution component as well -- that is the Program Component that I am least sure about.