Caroline Zhang Article

[antmanb]

Oh, and for a beautiful Lutz entry from a deep outside edge, go check out Volchkova

Check out her flip too - that has a beautiful deep outside edge too

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^ I think the idea in principle is that the wrong edge take-off (not a wobbly approach, but actually taking off from the wrong edge) recieves a deduction in GOE for that element on the TES side.

it does, but does the judge remember it when scoring skating skills? and should he?

Wobbly edges generally, whether leading up to a jump or just while you are skating along, is a contributing factor -- the most important one -- to the Skating Skills component. As you say, it is hard to tell because it is mixed in with other "skating skills" such as ice coverage and power stroking.

so we could conclude that the 'Skating Skills' score can not be explained fully to the public. No?

I don't know what the judges are supposed to do with the Skating Skills component in the case where the skater makes a slew of already-punished errors on elements, such as multiple falls, wrong-edge take-offs, step outs, two foots, and underrotation. But sometimes we do see a program with technical errors nevertheless score high in the Skating Skills component (Alissa Czisny for instance.

i don't see it as quantifiable. it is a hodge podge of judges' subjectivity. Not unlike the 6.0 system. I presume the public will think, although he/she fell twice;
underrotated his/her jumps, uncontrollable 3 turns from landing an Axel, however, he/she did have power stroking, and therefore has good skating skills. I think it would be best to change the name to Basic Skills.
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i]Edited to add[/i]: PS. Since this is a Caroline Zhang thread, I think the place where her high kick is penalized is in the lack of positive GOEs that she otherwise might get on her Lutz and flip.

This flaw is not a "skating skill," but it is not a technical "error" either. It's just that her technique is not up to the "textbook" quality that we expect at the championship senior level.

Perhaps it detracts from the Performance/execution component as well -- that is the Program Component that I am least sure about.

I agree, it is a flaw in her performance. I'm not sure where to penalize it in the PCs, if it should be penalized.

 

[PolymerBob]

Excellent. Everyone on the board is agreed, which rarely happens. Here are the points we agree on.

1) Caroline has an ugly mule-kick.
2) Caroline should be penalized for her mule-kick.
3) Caroline MUST be penalized for her mule-kick.
4) We don't know exactly how to penalize her, we don't CARE how to penalize her, but damn it, somehow WE MUST!!

Actually, there may be a certain logic to the mule-kick. By she sticking her leg out, she makes herself harder to rotate. She increases, what we call in engineering, her "moment of inertia".

basically ........................ I = Σ mi ri ²

She starts rotating with a certain angular velocity ( ω ) with her leg out, then pulls her leg in, reducing her moment of inertia. Her "angular momentum" ( L = I ω ) must remain constant, so her angular velocity must increase.

This faster rotation means her kinetic energy ( K = ½ I ω² ) must increase. In other words, as she is rotating slowly with her leg out, Caroline must exert effort to pull her leg in. This energy goes into increasing her rotational speed. It's a pretty smart trick actually.

 

[Mathman]

^ Actually, that is quite true. Here is what Wikipedia says about it (they call it "hammer toe" instead of "mule kick.")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flutz

Another notable technique flaw [in addition to "flutzing"] that appears in many skaters' lutzes (and flip jumps) is "hammer toe," which occurs when the free leg rises unusually high, typically near (in some cases above) hip height, before descending to strike the ice. This can make the jump easier to rotate but sacrifices height and some control. Examples of skaters with "hammer toe" on their lutz jumps include Angela Nikodinov and Rudy Galindo.

The funniest thing about this Wiki article is that the last time I read it a couple of weeks ago, it said: "Examples are Sasha Cohen and Caroline Zhang."

Evidently Sasha's and Caroline's "people" were on guard and intervened to throw Rudy and Angela under the bus instead.

 

[krenseby]

^ Actually, that is quite true. Here is what Wikipedia says about it (they call it "hammer toe" instead of "mule kick.")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flutz

The funniest thing about this Wiki article is that the last time I read it a couple of weeks ago, it said: "Examples are Sasha Cohen and Caroline Zhang."

Evidently Sasha's and Caroline's "people" were on guard and intervened to throw Rudy and Angela under the bus instead.

See Angela Nikodinov's career was not in vain! Wikipedia has not forgotten about her!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I was corrected in my definition of the parts of a jump: Take-off; Air Turns; Landing to a 4 part definition. Apparently, there is another part to a jump but I do not think it had anything to do with a graceful toe pick. So I'm ok with Caroline's mule kick but it is irritating and maybe it should lose some percentage of a point in Skating Skills. Agree?

 

[Mathman]

One of the guidelines for negative grade of execution on a jump is "poor take-off, -1 to -2 GOE." I haven't found any clarification about what makes a take-off "poor."

But I think what judges don't like about the high-kick is that it goes against the idea that proper figure skating technique should make all the tricks appear effortless. The Skating Skills program component speaks of "flow and effortless glide" and "seemingly effortless power and acceleration." You should accelerate by the surety of your stroke, not by huffing and puffing and waving your arms and pumping your back.

Evgeny Plushenko always got big GOEs on his quad-triple combinations (on top of the already high base marks) because he made it look as easy as falling off a log. If a skater has to wind up like a baseball pitcher to get off the ground, that is not so good.

About wobbly edges approaching the jump, the Skating Skills component talks about "cleanness and sureness of deep edges...: the skater should demonstrate clean and controled curves (and) deep edges." (In the Transitions description it is made explicit that entries to jumps are also being judged in this Program Component, although that is not made quite as clear in the description of Skating Skills.)

Also, by the way, a "long entrance" (telegraphing) gets a -1 in GOE on the element.

 

[Tinymavy15]

But I think what judges don't like about the high-kick is that it goes against the idea that proper figure skating technique should make all the tricks appear effortless. The Skating Skills program component speaks of "flow and effortless glide" and "seemingly effortless power and acceleration." You should accelerate by the surety of your stroke, not by huffing and puffing and waving your arms and pumping your back.
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True, but that she makes the pearl and her insanely flexible spirals look effortless (which they certainly are not...if in doubt, try one) so it should balance out.

 

[ManyCairns]

What I think is somewhat distinctive about Caroline's hammer toe (I always liked that term better than mule kick) is that, in addition to kicking high, she also breaks WAY forward at the waist as she kicks, to me more so than others with that jump technique.

Now, with my dialup I'm not rushing over to YouTube to confirm this general impression from (often faulty) memory, but that's something that has stood out in my mind.

HOWEVER, overall I do not find hammer toes/mule kicks to be that deplorable or disruptive a flaw. And it doesn't appear there's any really defensible way of penalizing it in COP, unless with each jump's GOE, but even then where's the rationale? -- based on previous comments, we're kind of having difficulty finding one in COP terms, and only by kind of squinting cock-eyed at some of the definitions to make it fit.

Unless the windup and torque-ing her body are harmful to her physically over the long haul (and they may well be), I'd rather see her work on her speed. Still, Caroline is doing quite well internationally compared to the other U.S. women, and I hope she continues to do so.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think they are deplorable, but certainly not ballet-like as Zhang is considered to be.

Wikipedia should also mention that Sarah Hughes won the Olys with hammer-toe take-offs, so they can't be all that bad.

interesting comment in another post above, is that Plushenko gets high scores in Skating Skills because of his clean, accurate, 4zx3t. My argument for clarification of Skating Skills has been is it all about basics or does a clean accurate quad also given consideration for excellent skating skills? I can't help but think that Skating Skills should be looked into. Not here, but Lauzanne.

 

[antmanb]

What I think is somewhat distinctive about Caroline's hammer toe (I always liked that term better than mule kick) is that, in addition to kicking high, she also breaks WAY forward at the waist as she kicks, to me more so than others with that jump technique.

Now, with my dialup I'm not rushing over to YouTube to confirm this general impression from (often faulty) memory, but that's something that has stood out in my mind.

HOWEVER, overall I do not find hammer toes/mule kicks to be that deplorable or disruptive a flaw. And it doesn't appear there's any really defensible way of penalizing it in COP, unless with each jump's GOE, but even then where's the rationale? -- based on previous comments, we're kind of having difficulty finding one in COP terms, and only by kind of squinting cock-eyed at some of the definitions to make it fit.

Unless the windup and torque-ing her body are harmful to her physically over the long haul (and they may well be), I'd rather see her work on her speed. Still, Caroline is doing quite well internationally compared to the other U.S. women, and I hope she continues to do so.

You see for me i think the original "mule kick" was Sarah Hughes - she dipped her body down and kicked her free leg up waaaaay up high. For me Zhang's in different - like you say above - she dips her upper body down lower (spiral position lower) and she does kick her leg up high, but she also kicks it out wide as well (no wonder she's switching over to the inside edge) with her foot turned in, at the same tmie she winds her body round in counter rotation in a disturbingly flexible way. That is just plain bizarre and rather ugly and also leads to greater pre-rotation than those who pick in straight.

I find that far more disturbing and faulty than e.g. a leg wrap on jumps. But then i never really have cared much about skaters who wrap - i actualyl like the way it looks when they rotate quickly!

Ant

 

[Mathman]

True, but that she makes the pearl and her insanely flexible spirals look effortless (which they certainly are not...if in doubt, try one) so it should balance out.

I think that's right. The "penalty" that Caroline gets for the less than perfect jump technique is just that she doesn't get the super-high marks that she might otherwise merit because of her excellence in other areas.

I find that far more disturbing and faulty than e.g. a leg wrap on jumps. But then i never really have cared much about skaters who wrap - i actualyl like the way it looks when they rotate quickly!

I don't like the leg wrap look at all. It looks like an egg beater.

Again, there is nothing wrong with it; a skater just loses some positve points that she might have picked up if she had neater legs.

 

[PolymerBob]

I hate to drag everybody, kicking and screaming, back to the subject of the thread, but if we could get back to the article for just a moment. I would have to say I am a little confused about this business of online high school. The impression I get, not being an “insider”, is that most high school age skaters attend …. um …. well …. high school. Yes, skating will mess up their schedule somewhat, but it just seems that most skaters muddle through in a brick and mortar high school.

There are just a few things I am not sure about an online high school. :scratch:

Does an online high school have an online junior prom?

Will Caroline’s online boyfriend take her to the online prom?

…………. or will he dump her for another online girlfriend?

……………….. who has better punctuation????

 

[antmanb]

I don't like the leg wrap look at all. It looks like an egg beater.

Again, there is nothing wrong with it; a skater just loses some positve points that she might have picked up if she had neater legs.

And what's wrong with egg beaters?

Seriously though - that being the case - why is a 'Tano position viewed as difficult as deserving of a + GOE? To my mind it breaks the shape the body makes when rotating the jumps - it is as off putting (or more so) than a leg wrap. Especially the ones that aren't straight in the air, like Irina's ones where the arm bends at th elbow and hand os over the head.

Wrapping makes it just as difficult to complete the rotations as a 'Tano position!

I guess it's all just down to preference and the writers of the COP.

More disturbing than all of the above is when skaters rotate with their heads out of the central axis giving that "wobbly head" look to a quickly ortated jump, like Adrian Schultheiss.

Ant

 

[LeCygne]

What I think is somewhat distinctive about Caroline's hammer toe (I always liked that term better than mule kick) is that, in addition to kicking high, she also breaks WAY forward at the waist as she kicks, to me more so than others with that jump technique.

Now, with my dialup I'm not rushing over to YouTube to confirm this general impression from (often faulty) memory, but that's something that has stood out in my mind.

I actually don't think Caroline leans forward that much, I think it just looks that way because of how high her leg is... It always seemed to me like Rachael Flatt has a bigger problem with leaning forward on jump takeoffs, especially in the 3toe on her 3-3's.

I would have to say I am a little confused about this business of online high school. The impression I get, not being an “insider”, is that most high school age skaters attend …. um …. well …. high school. Yes, skating will mess up their schedule somewhat, but it just seems that most skaters muddle through in a brick and mortar high school.

There are just a few things I am not sure about an online high school. :scratch:

Does an online high school have an online junior prom?

Will Caroline’s online boyfriend take her to the online prom?

…………. or will he dump her for another online girlfriend?

……………….. who has better punctuation????

.... Like Caroline said in the article, giving up attending regular high school means giving up a regular teenage life. Prom and dating and whatnot are sacrifices that she'll have to make for her skating.

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't find it absurd that she's taking online classes. Many elite athletes turn to homeschooling as they get older and better. MK was homeschooled starting at 13, and Sasha Cohen attended Futures High School, a special school for elite athletes and aspiring actors or actresses and whatnot. I've always gotten the impression that it's not customary for Olympic athletes to continue on in regular public school. I mean, how shocked were people upon finding out that Shawn Johnson still attended public high school leading up to Beijing?

Everyone's different. If this is what Caroline has to do, then this is what she has to do.

 

[feraina]

Everyone's different. If this is what Caroline has to do, then this is what she has to do.

It also depends on how flexible your school is. My impression that she was in the public school system through middle school, and public schools are in general not as flexible about students' taking part of the day off or shifting the schedule around. Maybe the high school she's zoned to is known to be inflexible in this regard. When you hear other skaters talk about being in a regular high school, like Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael, they often mention how grateful they're that their schools are flexible about their schedule.

Bad luck for Caroline, I guess. (Or maybe the others are financially better off and in private schools, I don't know.)

 

[skatingbc]

It also depends on how flexible your school is. My impression that she was in the public school system through middle school, and public schools are in general not as flexible about students' taking part of the day off or shifting the schedule around. Maybe the high school she's zoned to is known to be inflexible in this regard. When you hear other skaters talk about being in a regular high school, like Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael, they often mention how grateful they're that their schools are flexible about their schedule.

Bad luck for Caroline, I guess. (Or maybe the others are financially better off and in private schools, I don't know.)

The other skaters could attend a high school with a special sports program. In my area, there is a public school which has a normal timetable and a sports timetable. The sports timetable omits electives like home ec, phys ed, and art courses and allows them to have the afternoons free to train in their sport.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.
Bad luck for Caroline, I guess. (Or maybe the others are financially better off and in private schools, I don't know.)

The Sport has always leaned toward the more priveleged skater. Let's face it, it is an expensive sport. Some less fortunate children are somewhat lucky if there parents take an interest in them. Much sacrifce needed. Sad.

 

[Tinymavy15]

It also depends on how flexible your school is. My impression that she was in the public school system through middle school, and public schools are in general not as flexible about students' taking part of the day off or shifting the schedule around. Maybe the high school she's zoned to is known to be inflexible in this regard. When you hear other skaters talk about being in a regular high school, like Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael, they often mention how grateful they're that their schools are flexible about their schedule.

Bad luck for Caroline, I guess. (Or maybe the others are financially better off and in private schools, I don't know.)

Yeah, a lot of skaters of not-that-elite levels have abandoned "real" school in favor of private (and expensive) options. I know the Hughes girls went to public school full-time, and did very well, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Back to Caroline: I think if she worked on slinking her free leg close to the ice for take off, she would have a better lutz jump, higher and less struggle with the air turns.