Champs camp coverage

[Skatingcat]

Going a little bit off topic but I've been reading a book called Performing Under Pressure by Hendrie Weisinger and JP Pawliw-Fry. It's an interesting look into pressure/performance, and it's making me re-think the whole "standing up to pressure" thing.

The interview about Champs was great. I look forward to see everyone's programs because they all sound exciting. I hope that Mirai (or some American woman) will be able to land a clean triple axel this season.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I think your statement that U.S. skates "can never stand up to pressure" is a bit exaggerated.

I disagree. It is fairly obvious that US skaters struggle with consistency and dealing with pressure. I'm always biting my nails when a US skater performs; I'm just waiting for the big disaster.

 

[mrrice]

I disagree. It is fairly obvious that US skaters struggle with consistency and dealing with pressure. I'm always biting my nails when a US skater performs; I'm just waiting for the big disaster.

Really? I haven't seen a healthy Nathan Chen skate badly under pressure. Karen Chen has been solid since she won her Championship and I think their losses have come to skaters who are simply better than they are. For Karen to place fourth at Worlds was a big deal, at least to me. She's still quite young and so is Nathan. I think this year will be very telling as the skaters will want to set themselves up from the first event.

 

[Moxiejan]

Karen Chen has been solid since she won her Championship and I think their losses have come to skaters who are simply better than they are. For Karen to place fourth at Worlds was a big deal, at least to me. She's still quite young and so is Nathan. I think this year be very telling as the skaters will want to set themselves up from the first event.

After Karen won her championship, she had meltdowns at 4CC and the Team Challenge. (Yes, she skated very well at Worlds.) I think at least one of those was due to boot issues, so I hope she has learned how to manage them better.

 

[Ice Dance]

U.S. skaters that are rocks:
Maia & Alex Shibutani
Davis & White
Michelle Kwan
Sarah Hughes
Brian Boitano
Evan Lysacek
Nathan Chen
Kristi Yamaguchi
We have, indeed, been a tad scant in the ladies department (much less pairs) in recent years. But there are only a handful of rocks born in every generation.

Med, Satoko, & Zagitova seem to have the corner on the ladies' market at the moment.

But the same countries produced Kovtun, Anna, Leonova, Oda, Kozuka, and my lovely but inconsistent Mao . . . so there you go. Take your rocks in any time or discipline you can. They are few & far between.

And sometimes the brilliant non-rocks reap great rewards.
(Sotnikova, Asada, Kostner, Sui & Han, Cohen, Wylie, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, the list goes on).

Karen is a brilliant non-rock.

 

[mrrice]

Well, Karen is bit young to be on the list as a non-rock and frankly, so is Nathan. If Joshua Farris returns, he was definitely a solid competitor. Todd Eldredge was a rock and so was Rachael Flatt. Karen's 4th place finish at Worlds matches Gracie's best finish and I think that's great accomplishment for such a young skater.

 

[Moxiejan]

U.S. skaters that are rocks:
Maia & Alex Shibutani
Davis & White
Michelle Kwan
Sarah Hughes
Brian Boitano
Evan Lysacek
Nathan Chen
Kristi Yamaguchi
We have, indeed, been a tad scant in the ladies department (much less pairs) in recent years. But there are only a handful of rocks born in every generation.

Med, Satoko, & Zagitova seem to have the corner on the ladies' market at the moment.

But the same countries produced Kovtun, Anna, Leonova, Oda, Kozuka, and my lovely but inconsistent Mao . . . so there you go. Take your rocks in any time or discipline you can. They are few & far between.

And sometimes the brilliant non-rocks reap great rewards.
(Sotnikova, Asada, Kostner, Sui & Han, Cohen, Wylie, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, the list goes on).

Karen is a brilliant non-rock.

Ashley Wagner has been Top 5 (or better) in 4 of the past 6 Worlds and in the GP Final for 4 of the past 5 years. How can she not be on the "rock" list?

 

[noskates]

I disagree. It is fairly obvious that US skaters struggle with consistency and dealing with pressure. I'm always biting my nails when a US skater performs; I'm just waiting for the big disaster.

I don't think the US has the market on skaters choking or not being consistent. There are many skaters from different countries that have those same issues. It's human nature and the ice is slippery. I think this is a broad statement that's basically incorrect.

 

[mrrice]

I don't think the US has the market on skaters choking or not being consistent. There are many skaters from different countries that have those same issues. It's human nature and the ice is slippery. I think this is a broad statement that's basically incorrect.

I agree, the Japanese ladies did not have a good showing at Worlds and frankly, outside of Canada, no country was dominant for the ladies. Russia-1/8, Canada 2/3, US 4/7. These are the only countries who have 3 spots going into the Olympic season.

 

[skylark]

Ashley Wagner has been Top 5 (or better) in 4 of the past 6 Worlds and in the GP Final for 4 of the past 5 years. How can she not be on the "rock" list?

:agree:

A conundrum indeed. It's even an oxymoron.

:scratch3:

 

[Ice Dance]

Ashley Wagner has been Top 5 (or better) in 4 of the past 6 Worlds and in the GP Final for 4 of the past 5 years. How can she not be on the "rock" list?

See Sasha Cohen.
(who was top four in all five World Championships she attended and two Olympics)

And I am an incredibly HUGE Sasha fan, but a "rock" she was not. Rocks do not miss their final triple toe jump after skating completely clean free skates. She remains my favorite U.S. ladies skater of all time, however.

Ashley is not on either of my lists. Feel free to slot her in on yours. She is the most rocklike of the current U.S. ladies skaters. I will give her that. She is also one of the most rocklike ladies early in the season before other athletes on the GP get themselves in gear. (Hence she has qualfied for the GPF a lot more often than Carolina, though Carolina has been a much more consistent World medal threat over the course of mutually long careers).

If it makes you feel better, Patrick Chan & Yuzuru Hanyu do not make my "rock" list either. Blame the triple axel and the quad salchow if you must.

 

[andromache]

:agree:

A conundrum indeed. It's even an oxymoron.

:scratch3:

I think there are just too many times in the past where Ashley has "blown it" at Worlds. Her SPs in 2012 and 2015 kept her from the podium. Plus, UR problems.

That said, considering the longevity of her career, she is, overall, very consistent (just not on full jump rotations). But I'm not sure if I would call her a rock - I always feel a twinge of nerves when she skates. The 3F-3T in her SP makes me hold my breath every time.

OTOH, Nathan, Michelle, D/W, Shibs - never felt scared for them (except for Michelle at Olympics).

Nathan is young - but he's still a rock. Nerves of steel, especially considering his technical content.

 

[Skatingcat]

I would add Ashley to the rock list because of her longevity. She hasn't retired and is one of the strongest skaters on the US team right now. She's got grit and stick-to-it-tiveness and continues to push herself, regardless of her placement She is not a delicate flowers, as some skaters are (I'm not talking about female skaters, I am thinking of many skaters from many countries.).

But one's mileage may vary.

 

[ice coverage]

I am a fan of Ashley.

For me, 2014 Nats and 2017 Worlds were examples of competitions where she was "non-rock-like" (subjective term, as are "rock," "rock-like," and "non-rock").

Also a matter of subjective opinion is how many times a skater can be "non-rock-like," but still be considered a rock overall.

---

Doesn't anyone find it sad that Gracie is being so maligned? Nobody really knows for sure what's going on with her unless she's told them. It's all speculation and it's almost a new "fad" to crack on Gracie. At least it takes the pressure off Mirai!

Completely unnecessary to bring Mirai into this discussion.

IMO, assuming the worst about Mirai is no more acceptable than assuming the worst about Gracie or any other skater.

 

[noskates]

Absolutely - but since all the focus has been on Gracie and her weaknesses and inconsistency and...and....etc. people have left off of Mirai. And I don't think it's unnecessary to bring her into the discussion because many of the posts about Mirai you could just substitute Gracie's name because they're almost the same observations. Alleged lack of motivation, needs to "want" it, now is the time or never...... I am a big Gracie fan - I've always liked her and I wish her well. I used to be a big Mirai fan and always wished her well but, like with Jeremy Abbott, my heart got broken too many times. It's very sad to see someone with so much talent not be able to deliver when they need to. I think there are skaters who step up under pressure and I think there are skaters who skate with their heads instead of their feet. I don't think this is attributed to only US skaters. And I also don't know why that is! Paul Wylie was another example. Scott Davis. Josee Chouinard. Ashley Wagner sometimes. The list goes on. I just think it's incredibly difficult beyond comprehension unless you've skated yourself, to know what it's like to train for hours and hours and years and years and have it all culminate in a few minutes on the ice. Sometimes it's just hard to watch but then comes that magic moment when that skater puts it all together and it's magical. I guess that's why we keep following this sport.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Absolutely - but since all the focus has been on Gracie and her weaknesses and inconsistency and...and....etc. people have left off of Mirai. And I don't think it's unnecessary to bring her into the discussion because many of the posts about Mirai you could just substitute Gracie's name because they're almost the same observations. Alleged lack of motivation, needs to "want" it, now is the time or never...... I am a big Gracie fan - I've always liked her and I wish her well. I used to be a big Mirai fan and always wished her well but, like with Jeremy Abbott, my heart got broken too many times. It's very sad to see someone with so much talent not be able to deliver when they need to. I think there are skaters who step up under pressure and I think there are skaters who skate with their heads instead of their feet. I don't think this is attributed to only US skaters. And I also don't know why that is! Paul Wylie was another example. Scott Davis. Josee Chouinard. Ashley Wagner sometimes. The list goes on. I just think it's incredibly difficult beyond comprehension unless you've skated yourself, to know what it's like to train for hours and hours and years and years and have it all culminate in a few minutes on the ice. Sometimes it's just hard to watch but then comes that magic moment when that skater puts it all together and it's magical. I guess that's why we keep following this sport.

You just answered your own pondering/questions. If you've never skated you don't really know what's going into it and how hard it really is.:sarcasm:

Also, let me just address the mention of Jeremy Abbott here, fans tend to blow his mishaps or "failures" in their own eyes out of proportion IMHO. The man is a 4 time US Champ, the first US man to win the GPF, he's won so many other things on the GP circuit, Senior B series, MWO, and more. Not to mention fabulous musicality, edge quality and one of the best 3A's in the sport to date. Give the man a break.

 

[ice coverage]

Absolutely - but since all the focus has been on Gracie and her weaknesses and inconsistency and...and....etc. people have left off of Mirai. ...

I'm sad to say that I do not agree that "people have left off of Mirai."

Unfortunately, I still see all too many comments casting aspersions on and/or questioning what Mirai is doing, what she is capable of doing, what she should be doing, etc.

Perhaps this particular thread has been more focused on Gracie. And I do know that many comments (both supportive and less than supportive) about Gracie have appeared in other threads, not to mention outside of GS.

But in general, still all too many comments about Mirai that are less than supportive.

(I do believe that for Mirai, the proportion of supportive comments lately has been slowly inching upward, but I do not think that the micro-increases have anything to do with scrutiny of Gracie.)

 

[el henry]

Jason Brown's vlog from Champs Camp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpC1KOh8ums

You'll see glimpses of more than one skater here (even a little of my fav duo, Grant and "JB" ), although only Jason skating. .....

 

[R.D.]

I would add Ashley to the rock list because of her longevity. She hasn't retired and is one of the strongest skaters on the US team right now. She's got grit and stick-to-it-tiveness and continues to push herself, regardless of her placement She is not a delicate flowers, as some skaters are (I'm not talking about female skaters, I am thinking of many skaters from many countries.).

But one's mileage may vary.

Wagner may fit into the "dependable" category considering her consistent top 7 finishes at Worlds - but she is definitely NOT in "rock" territory. In fact, I would hesitate to give any post-Kwan/Cohen US skater that title. *MAYBE* Rachel Flatt during the 2008-2010 period - but even then, I'd consider a "rock" to be more like a sure top 4 finisher or medalist.

 

[Moxiejan]

Wagner may fit into the "dependable" category considering her consistent top 7 finishes at Worlds - but she is definitely NOT in "rock" territory. In fact, I
would hesitate to give any post-Kwan/Cohen US skater that title. *MAYBE* Rachel Flatt during the 2008-2010 period - but even then, I'd consider a "rock" to be more like a sure top 4 finisher or medalist.

Has any other singles skater been Top 7 at Worlds for the past 6 years and in the GP Final for 5 of those 6 years (with her just missing last year as 1st alternate)?

I guess I would define "rock" as being "consistent" and "dependable." If I was on the Worlds selection committee and right now had to pick 1 U.S. lady who I could count on to help the team keep three spots, it would be Ashley.