Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Violet Bliss]

Sometimes one needs a fresh air of breath and some objective perspective from an outstander instead of always relying on family and people who're close to us. And sometimes one doesn't notice they need help from someone else until it's too late

.

Well, that outstander is not all the online strangers with no credentials for sure. His family cares the most and invested the most in him. He is also under the careful watch of Skate Canada with various skating experts, plus nutritional and physical training specialists. I think they know more about figure skating, training, conditioning, and competing.

I didn't say Johnson wasn't competent at her field, but she still is no figure skating coach. Showing videos is not the same as giving individual advice of what went wrong with the take-off/ edge/ air position/ landing.

So you are sure Patrick has problems with his take-off/edge/air position/landing? He has shown he is capable of doing all the planned jumps almost perfectly in various wins and in achieving his WR performances you acknowledged below. He's almost never been called on edges, UR, etc.

Johnson chose the specific video for him to show what she had been teaching him. Knowing what a skater needs to know and how to inspire is more important than drilling techniques. We all know the difficulties some of the most talented skaters under great coaches have to get that quad or be consistent with it.

And yes, Patrick won all those titles under her but he didn't win the Olympics nor the Worlds nor the GPF in 2015. His TEB skate was awesome and clean, but it also showed that he had the ability to skate that programm clean, but wasn't trained to peak at the right time.

It is exactly this kind of expectation, that he should win all including and especially the Olympics, that puts the extraordinary pressure on him to actually bring it at that few critical minutes in front of world wide audience. He didn't compete at Worlds 2014 and 2015 but repeated his wins 3 times before that, something 2014 Champ couldn't do and 2015 Champ is unlikely to do either. So who in the world can consistently peak every year?

Yuna was one of the greatest competitors ever who never competed off the podium. But she didn't win every single time either. (Let's not bring up the ancient greats who competed in very limited fields in early history of the sport.)

Now that Patrick is more relaxed about winning, as 4everchan explained, he will likely bring great performances as intended and may actually win some as a bonus.

 

[Mathman]

Brecht sings Mack

http://www.openculture.com/2013/02/...e_knife_from_ithe_threepenny_operai_1929.html

Wunderbar!

 

[Eclair]

.

Well, that outstander is not all the online strangers with no credentials for sure. His family cares the most and invested the most in him. He is also under the careful watch of Skate Canada with various skating experts, plus nutritional and physical training specialists. I think they know more about figure skating, training, conditioning, and competing.

Are you talking about yourself or me? Because we're both online strangers and I have just as much a right to voice my opinion on his skating situation as you have the right to critisize it. No need to doubt my valid concerns by implying I have no knowlegde nor do I care enough. And no, I don't think the dance coach, occational looking by skating experts, nutritional or physical training specialist know enough about figure skating to replace a real figure skating coach.

So you are sure Patrick has problems with his take-off/edge/air position/landing? He has shown he is capable of doing all the planned jumps almost perfectly in various wins and in achieving his WR performances you acknowledged below. He's almost never been called on edges, UR, etc.

Yes, I'm sure Patrick has some problems with his 3axel and everyone with eyes will agree with me. It may be mental, but I lean more towards technical because he is neither a fast rotator nor does he jumps especially high. That's why I think it's best to let an figure skating coach look at it instead of a dance coach. And really, what harm would it do to let a technical coach look over it? I don't understand your point in being against my suggestions.

Johnson chose the specific video for him to show what she had been teaching him. Knowing what a skater needs to know and how to inspire is more important than drilling techniques. We all know the difficulties some of the most talented skaters under great coaches have to get that quad or be consistent with it.

But only inspiring without the right technique is no solution either. He needs both, that why, I repeat, he needs a figure skating coach to complement Johnsons coaching.

It is exactly this kind of expectation, that he should win all including and especially the Olympics, that puts the extraordinary pressure on him to actually bring it at that few critical minutes in front of world wide audience. He didn't compete at Worlds 2014 and 2015 but repeated his wins 3 times before that, something 2014 Champ couldn't do and 2015 Champ is unlikely to do either. So who in the world can consistently peak every year?

I couldn't care less whether he wins or not. But it was is own declared goal to win the OGM and I think if that's what he want, he can't let everything stay at the status quo. He didn't win the OGM with the Johnson strategy, therefore if he wants to win the OGM in 2018 he needs to change tactics.

Yuna was one of the greatest competitors ever who never competed off the podium. But she didn't win every single time either. (Let's not bring up the ancient greats who competed in very limited fields in early history of the sport.)

I don't understand why you bring up Yuna out of nowhere? Does she has anything to do with my argumentation or the topic? What exactly is your point here?

Now that Patrick is more relaxed about winning, as 4everchan explained, he will likely bring great performances as intended and may actually win some as a bonus.

I hope that is true but I usually don't believe something is going to change about his 3axel if he is not going to change his approach to it. Maybe he's working on that - still I stand by my point that getting a new perspective of a technical coach is more efficient than relying on Johnson alone.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Hope he gets more into the music.

That's never really been his problem. He does get into his music the majority of the time. There's just an artistic spark missing, it can't be taught. If it doesn't feel like a matter of life-and-death, being able to express all of the deep thoughts and emotions inside of you, then the movement is never going to reflect the same kind of artistry. All the perfect technique in the world won't get you there.

 

[4everchan]

this is a very good debate....i tend to see it a bit differently... yup... there is a something like an artistic spark which some people will receive... i tend to believe that if it is true that one is born with that, it is also true that not everyone will perceive it when it's there... but here is what matters to me when I look at art:

the spark is a bonus... but everything else matters too... and great technique will allow for great skating, great edges... training will allow for better flexibility etc... talent is not much a factor in art ... other than it is what will trigger often a passion at first, but without work and proper technique, a skater will look clumsy on the ice and that is just not artistic at all... this is why for me, Patrick is a true artist of the blade, because at his best, his jumps have great position and flow, his blade-work is unmatched, his choreography is intricate and interesting etc... when all is there, it is more than enough to enjoy his skating....like at TEB in 2013, his flawless skating for me was perceived as a masterpiece. I don't want to bring someone else into this but why not... there are skaters who do have more of a spark but their choreo isn't good, they just move their arms to Ravel's bolero and call it a day... i do not feel that this is art... eventhough it perhaps look like there's a spark and connection that is outwards.... i say perhaps as many would argue that this spark is shallow.

That's never really been his problem. He does get into his music the majority of the time. There's just an artistic spark missing, it can't be taught. If it doesn't feel like a matter of life-and-death, being able to express all of the deep thoughts and emotions inside of you, then the movement is never going to reflect the same kind of artistry. All the perfect technique in the world won't get you there.

 

[Jaana]

The season will be highly interesting, especially wondering how the skating of Chan will be judged now? In Olympics he did not seem to have mistake cushions anymore, must have been a shock for him...

 

[asabarin]

Sorry, my english is not good. But read someone's opinions(CanadianSkaterGuy or others) i want to say something.
Maybe you don't care about Hanyu's conditions outside rinks, but for us who concerned with his every news, we know his performance in last season could not reflect his real ability. So someone said his 4s or 4t was inconsistent, it's not fair. Accident and surgery ruined this season and took away his feeling with the competitions. He struggled with that all the season.

During Hanyu's tough time, Javier and Denis just caught the opportunities. Now people call them "TOP 4". The new season Patrick is back. But Hanyu is back too.Now we can expect the real battles.

 

[Krunchii]

Sorry, my english is not good. But read someone's opinions(CanadianSkaterGuy or others) i want to say something.
Maybe you don't care about Hanyu's conditions outside rinks, but for us who concerned with his every news, we know his performance in last season could not reflect his real ability. So someone said his 4s or 4t was inconsistent, it's not fair. Accident and surgery ruined this season and took away his feeling with the competitions. He struggled with that all the season.

During Hanyu's tough time, Javier and Denis just caught the opportunities. Now people call them "TOP 4". The new season Patrick is back. But Hanyu is back too.Now we can expect the real battles.

It's pretty rude of you to chalk up Denis and Javier's wins to opportunity, they are extremely talented in their own right and have rightfully earned their places as part of a top 4. Why can't we say top 4? These 4 skaters have racked up the most medals and are all world podium finishers and regardless of ability, they push each other further in this sport.

 

[4everchan]

i agree that ten and fernandez were not opportunistic newcomers.... they have won their share of medals and events in past seasons... i understand asabarin's frustration as yuzu was injured but at the same time, most skaters have bruises and kinks it's sport.... i mean, didn't elvis skate with a major ankle injury at the olympics? this is "normal" and probably why people do not take it much in consideration... most athletes are injured... and compete as long as they can do okay or as long as the injury won't get worse.... look at tennis players....

It's pretty rude of you to chalk up Denis and Javier's wins to opportunity, they are extremely talented in their own right and have rightfully earned their places as part of a top 4. Why can't we say top 4? These 4 skaters have racked up the most medals and are all world podium finishers and regardless of ability, they push each other further in this sport.

 

[4everchan]

yup but it's common in the sport.... that's the point i'm making.... W/P are injured, C/P are injured... will they skate? they may get fit later on this season... are they missing precious training, yes? are other skaters going to suffer injuries throughout the season? yes... the way I see sport is that when an athlete hits the ice, then injuries can not be a factor... or an excuse. as they touch everyone.... i practiced what people think is a very mild sport... swimming... and we were always constantly injured that's what happens with competitive sport, it wears you down.... of course, if the injury could get worse, they would stay out of the water for a while... but if not, we all swam with bruises and kinks... so saying that Dennis and Javi were opportunistic is wrong... they have had their share of injuries too they did skate better when they needed to.

I don't think that ankle injuiry was the biggest problem for Hanyu at Worlds but the situation that he was not practicing basically for 3 months before Worlds, first because of surgery and then because of ankle

 

[mrrice]

With all this talk about Patrick Chan who, BTW, is one of the best figure skater's of all time. Along with Plushy and Yagudin of course. I have been wondering where Eman might be these days. That Boy had skills and all my dancers were in love with him.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

With all this talk about Patrick Chan who, BTW, is one of the best figure skater's of all time. Along with Plushy and Yagudin of course. I have been wondering where Eman might be these days. That Boy had skills and all my dancers were in love with him.

He competed at Nationals last year. He doesn't have the quad or triple axel anymore but he skated as smoothly and sophisticated as ever.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's pretty rude of you to chalk up Denis and Javier's wins to opportunity, they are extremely talented in their own right and have rightfully earned their places as part of a top 4. Why can't we say top 4? These 4 skaters have racked up the most medals and are all world podium finishers and regardless of ability, they push each other further in this sport.

I agree. It's not opportunity it's talent. I'd say it's about skaters skating to their potential. It's not opportunistic to skate well when another doesn't and trivializes when skaters DO skate well (ie "they only won because so and so did poorly"). Often in these circumstances skaters do have to still skate well to win. Javier still landed his axels and 3/4 quads to win worlds.

 

[MaxSwagg]

...kinks and bruises??? I'm pretty sure it was more than kinks and bruises. A win is a win even if another skater's sub-par condition increased the chances of others (which definitely was the case). Of course Yuzu still got "helped out" most of the time as well and I was surprised he didn't get more help at Worlds as the judges are typically very kind to him.

 

[Sorrento]

If we stop the competition only because one or two top skaters can't compete or show their best performance- then why the competitions should be held at all? **** happens even with the best of the best. It does not mean that the one who wins basically never worked his or her *** off in order to win.
As per the topic- well, I am not a huge specialist in the technical department, but I only try to predict things on the minor facts that are never taken into account when big specialist in the field start the conversation.
I love Yuzuru, I love his skating to death. But I think that this season is going to be a Patrick's one. Patrick and Yuzu both have some technical issues, if they can solve them somehow- that would be awesome. I think that Patrick is going to win the season if his skates relatively clean, I mean minor problems on landing and one fall per skate. His skating skills are amazing (even if I am not a huge fan of his) and basically he gets bigger GOE's on clean jumps and PCS. Moreover, if he skates relatively clean (in case Yuzu does some technical mistakes, bombing some of his 3 quads with super difficult entries)- he is going to win every single comptetition. Because- lets face it: we all missed Patrick and we have to welcome him with every single possibility that we can. Judges are ready to welcome him, just look at his PCs at that little competition where he skated his SP. Those PCs are killer! Yuzu never got those PCs even for his winning skates.

 

[HanDomi]

If we stop the competition only because one or two top skaters can't compete or show their best performance- then why the competitions should be held at all? **** happens even with the best of the best. It does not mean that the one who wins basically never worked his or her *** off in order to win.
As per the topic- well, I am not a huge specialist in the technical department, but I only try to predict things on the minor facts that are never taken into account when big specialist in the field start the conversation.
I love Yuzuru, I love his skating to death. But I think that this season is going to be a Patrick's one. Patrick and Yuzu both have some technical issues, if they can solve them somehow- that would be awesome. I think that Patrick is going to win the season if his skates relatively clean, I mean minor problems on landing and one fall per skate. His skating skills are amazing (even if I am not a huge fan of his) and basically he gets bigger GOE's on clean jumps and PCS. Moreover, if he skates relatively clean (in case Yuzu does some technical mistakes, bombing some of his 3 quads with super difficult entries)- he is going to win every single comptetition. Because- lets face it: we all missed Patrick and we have to welcome him with every single possibility that we can. Judges are ready to welcome him, just look at his PCs at that little competition where he skated his SP. Those PCs are killer! Yuzu never got those PCs even for his winning skates.

But Hanyu has killer TES

 

[Violet Bliss]

If we stop the competition only because one or two top skaters can't compete or show their best performance- then why the competitions should be held at all? **** happens even with the best of the best. It does not mean that the one who wins basically never worked his or her *** off in order to win.
As per the topic- well, I am not a huge specialist in the technical department, but I only try to predict things on the minor facts that are never taken into account when big specialist in the field start the conversation.
I love Yuzuru, I love his skating to death. But I think that this season is going to be a Patrick's one. Patrick and Yuzu both have some technical issues, if they can solve them somehow- that would be awesome. I think that Patrick is going to win the season if his skates relatively clean, I mean minor problems on landing and one fall per skate. His skating skills are amazing (even if I am not a huge fan of his) and basically he gets bigger GOE's on clean jumps and PCS. Moreover, if he skates relatively clean (in case Yuzu does some technical mistakes, bombing some of his 3 quads with super difficult entries)- he is going to win every single comptetition. Because- lets face it: we all missed Patrick and we have to welcome him with every single possibility that we can. Judges are ready to welcome him, just look at his PCs at that little competition where he skated his SP. Those PCs are killer! Yuzu never got those PCs even for his winning skates.

Though I believe Chan deserves such high PCS especially when scored relative to his rivals, those marks are nonetheless non ISU but from a very minor local event, unlikely to indicate or affect his PCS in major competitions.

PCS is capped at 100 for Men, to be about equal to TES of a conceivable highest TES at the time COP points were initially established. PCS for Ladies, Pairs and Dance are factored differently on the same principal. These days, the top skaters in Men and Pairs are actually scoring above maximum PCS in TES with the technical difficulty they are able to achieve. Thus, TES is what mainly determines the Total Scores and Placements whereas the PCS difference is relatively minor, having an effect only when the TES are really close between two competitors.

 

[Sorrento]

But Hanyu has killer TES

That's an assumption! Let's wait and see the factual TES first!

 

[Sorrento]

the PCS difference is relatively minor, having an effect only when the TES are really close between two competitors.

I actually think that PCS are going to determine the winner between these two: Hanyu and Chan- for the upcoming season. I could be wrong but I have a feeling that judges are going to be very generous with Chan.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I actually think that PCS are going to determine the winner between these two: Hanyu and Chan- for the upcoming season. I could be wrong but I have a feeling that judges are going to be very generous with Chan.

Chan should have the PCS advantage and GOE if he gets the jump levels back. Hanyu has the killer BV so it depends on if he can actually land all the planned jumps with full rotations. They will both progress through the season and it will be exciting how far each will go against the other.