Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Rissa]

I still think Patrick has a good chance of winning SC over Yuzu. I doubt he was in a full-fledged training mode at JO so he should be miles ahead of that at SC (meaning he should have his quads back) and Yuzu is almost certain to make a few mistakes. A bit of home advantage and he' set. The thing that might factor in against him is that he's not immune to headcasing and given that he lost the last two competitions he skated against Yuzu, he might psych himself out. I really hope it won't happen.

 

[yuki]

Save for their Olympic season shorts (and the prior year, thank you Jeff Buttle), I wouldn't say Yuzuru or Patrick have any personality in their programs. The only emotion I get from both is tension regarding whether they would land their jumps or not. Patrick has the edges to fascinate you throughout the program and Yuzuru has the Ina Bauer where the audience is supposed to fill in the emotion he should have had for the prior 4 minutes.

Yuzuru had plenty of emotion in his 2012 Worlds LP. The LPs he has had since were more about attempting difficult layouts and increasing his BV than about nuanced interpretation.
That said, I have high hopes for his LP this year, from what we've seen of it so far it looks promising, his best one since 2012.

 

[Mathman]

Quality, refinement, and maturity aside, three words for Patrick: dead fish eyes.

Patrick has an eye condition from an injury in his youth that prevents him from having a full range of motion in his right eye. He cannot "look up" with his right eye, giving the effect of staring ahead without emotion. Not his fault.

I, for one, would like this sport to return in some way to its roots - skating of figures. No, I'm not suggesting compulsory figures right here. But an emphasis on skating skills including edges, turns and transitions. So the current emphasis on this in PCS is a good thing. I liked the old 6.0 system but the artistic impression was quite biased and I agree that it seemed like figure skating was trying to be something it isn't - an art form. For me, it's quite clearly a sport and whilst everybody could find art and beauty in everything in life, you have to define things for what they are first. That is, it's a sport first and more than anything.

To me, it's a hard call. The reason that figures were de-emphasized in favor of performance is money. The ISU (led by Sonia Bianchetti) decided that no one would pay to watch clever edge work, but if they put on a show they could make millions from TV. This is basically what happened. Now, the sport is "returning to its roots" and public interest and support is in the doldrums, at least in the USA.

 

[4everchan]

i should have specified in big competitions like WC or OG ... i don't really care about GP nor WTT

Yup... and TEB 2013, the current world record, was less than 2 years ago, too (not exactly "a long time").

 

[4everchan]

Quality, refinement, and maturity aside, three words for Patrick: dead fish eyes. That's what I get.

And of course he's peeved about losing Sochi gold!

you know that his "dead fish eyes" as you say are a health/medical condition? that's quite rude of a comment.

 

[HanDomi]

i should have specified in big competitions like WC or OG ... i don't really care about GP nor WTT

then if you not care about gp, when was the last time Chan skated naear clean at big competition ?

 

[jenaj]

Honestly I find the whole argument "who will skate the cleanest will come out on top" to have aa big fallacy:right now the two skaters are attempting two very different layaouts, and if Chan doesn't change his current planned content his only way to beat hanyu is for the latter to implode badly. Right now if Yuzuru rotates all his jumps and hits all the levels of his spin and stele he will have a base value of 96. Patrick on the other hand will be lucky to have a BV of 80 since he attempts just one quad, one 3axel and he will not go for the 3lutz1/2loop3salchov... That's a 16 point differente just there. Quote the big gap IMO

Patrick typically attempted two quads in his long program, didn't he?

 

[m0001]

Quality, refinement, and maturity aside, three words for Patrick: dead fish eyes. That's what I get.

And of course he's peeved about losing Sochi gold!

I have never seen such a rude comment!

 

[jenaj]

You guys trying to discuss Patrick's base value without seeing the competition skate in it's flesh and blood- how do you know Patrick will perform one single quad only? Isn't it too premature to say that? I say- let's wait for Skate Canada first. I'm sure Patrick will fight to win and his planned BV is higher that the one we saw on Japan Open. He comes back to win, not to prove that his skating skills are still the best on this planet and maybe in the entire universe.

And the last time Patrick faced Hanyu, winning was well within his grasp. He did two quads, but made a lot of mistakes after that. Patrick definitely can beat Hanyu but not if he pops his jumps or has multiple falls. Hanyu often has mistakes in his long program. Doing well in the short program is a key for both.

 

[Blades of Passion]

And if he had "far superior programs" on the whole - and we're talking everything that makes up a program, not just interpretive ability/musicality when performing it - then why aren't Takahashi's personal best PCS scores "far superior" to Chan's personal best PCS scores? Why is Chan's personal best competition score 20 points higher than Takahashi's?

How amusing, you're trying to argue that the scores are actually accurate.

Chan's scores at 2013 TEB were a joke. Receiving 10's for performance and interpretation for that trite, formulaic thing he put out there. Skating skills, sure. Transitions, very good, but not his best or most difficulty actually. He got rewarded for skating cleanly, for the first time EVER in international competition, while being "3-time" world champ (LOL), and because the judges just throw PCS around like stock shares.

Surya Bonaly's interpretation of 4 Seasons was better than Chan's during the Olympic season. Not the same music cut ofc, but Chan's was so bland either way.

Thankfully, what we are finally seeing THIS season, is the skaters actually taking the music and their movements more seriously. The sport seems to finally be understanding that, yes, what you are doing out there needs to have choreographic purpose and reflect the music, not just be a checklist. What we now need is the judges to actually SCORE the programs correctly to reflect how well the elements are incorporated into the programs, how well the programs maintain a choreographic whole, and the emotion and inventiveness of the movements. The judges are supposed to be police. The competitors will do what is deemed necessary, and trying to create programs and give performances that people actually care about and want to watch is necessary for the sport.

 

[jace93]

Patrick typically attempted two quads in his long program, didn't he?

Right now afaik he has skated his free two times, once(with quite a few mistakes) in this year japan open, once (nearly perfectly)last year always during the japan open. Both times he attempted just one quad. Honestly I hope you are right and he will change his layout to at least include another quad, because right now I feel as if he's leaving evrything in his competitors hands.

 

[xibsuarz]

Right now afaik he has skated his free two times, once(with quite a few mistakes) in this year japan open, once (nearly perfectly)last year always during the japan open. Both times he attempted just one quad. Honestly I hope you are right and he will change his layout to at least include another quad, because right now I feel as if he's leaving evrything in his competitors hands.

I think it's very, very unlikely that Patrick won't include at least his two 4T, they're his "money jumps". Japan Open is basically an exhibition, a warm up, so to speak, leading to the Grand Prix. I think we'll see a different layout from what he showed at JO.

 

[4everchan]

i was talking about hanyu, never said chan had done it recently… and recently is not recent when you take a year off, and do not go to the WC after the olympics

then if you not care about gp, when was the last time Chan skated naear clean at big competition ?

 

[Interspectator]

i was talking about hanyu, never said chan had done it recently… and recently is not recent when you take a year off, and do not go to the WC after the olympics

World Championships 2014 LP was very close to clean. Landed all jumps. Won title, etc.

In any case, we just want to see them skate, don't we?
We want to see Patrick's great SS and hope to see his jumps have improved
we want to see Yuzu's great step sequences and hope that he'll land his quads and lutzes.

Next week, folks, next week. --Then back to this thread to re-hash and quibble about PCS and the nuances of the word 'ART' As an illustrator, I have a grudge against 'artists'.

 

[4everchan]

WOW… i know you are a passionate poster and I respect that a lot… but "trite" "formulaic" and "bland" are not words i would use to describe Patrick's Vivaldi… I can agree with you that sometimes his performances may be a bit lacking but the TEB you are referring to gave me goosebumps… it's was not only clean but it was fluid, thoughtful, engaged and mature… i think some people really don't understand what interpretation means… Surya was engaging but her posture was all over the place, she barely skated in between jumps… giving us very boring static skating, just throwing arms around and pushing with one foot like in this (at 3:00) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suSVkTrgwAE… if that's what you find engaging, then fair enough… we will simply passionately disagree

How amusing, you're trying to argue that the scores are actually accurate.

Chan's scores at 2013 TEB were a joke. Receiving 10's for performance and interpretation for that trite, formulaic thing he put out there. Skating skills, sure. Transitions, very good, but not his best or most difficulty actually. He got rewarded for skating cleanly, for the first time EVER in international competition, while being "3-time" world champ (LOL), and because the judges just throw PCS around like stock shares.

Surya Bonaly's interpretation of 4 Seasons was better than Chan's during the Olympic season. Not the same music cut ofc, but Chan's was so bland either way.

Thankfully, what we are finally seeing THIS season, is the skaters actually taking the music and their movements more seriously. The sport seems to finally be understanding that, yes, what you are doing out there needs to have choreographic purpose and reflect the music, not just be a checklist. What we now need is the judges to actually SCORE the programs correctly to reflect how well the elements are incorporated into the programs, how well the programs maintain a choreographic whole, and the emotion and inventiveness of the movements. The judges are supposed to be police. The competitors will do what is deemed necessary, and trying to create programs and give performances that people actually care about and want to watch is necessary for the sport.

 

[4everchan]

HEHE omg. i think that no matter what happens in SC, there will be another 30 pages to this thread… I am tempted to cheer for NAM maybe we can start a new thread if Nam wins it by a landslide

World Championships 2014 LP was very close to clean. Landed all jumps. Won title, etc.

In any case, we just want to see them skate, don't we?
We want to see Patrick's great SS and hope to see his jumps have improved
we want to see Yuzu's great step sequences and hope that he'll land his quads and lutzes.

Next week, folks, next week. --Then back to this thread to re-hash and quibble about PCS and the nuances of the word 'ART' As an illustrator, I have a grudge against 'artists'.

 

[xibsuarz]

World Championships 2014 LP was very close to clean. Landed all jumps. Won title, etc.

In any case, we just want to see them skate, don't we?
We want to see Patrick's great SS and hope to see his jumps have improved
we want to see Yuzu's great step sequences and hope that he'll land his quads and lutzes.

Next week, folks, next week. --Then back to this thread to re-hash and quibble about PCS and the nuances of the word 'ART' As an illustrator, I have a grudge against 'artists'.

I can't wait to see how this thread will look like next weekend but hopefully we can have some great discussions w/o dissing, at the end of the day "artistic" comes down to personal taste. It's just the kind of things that we can't all have the same opinion, I mean, it's figure skating, since when has there been a universally agreed opinion?

We've been fooling around with the idea of Nam upsetting Patrick and Yuzuru for a while and now I'm actually starting to ponder the idea, it would make a statement, that's for sure

 

[Ophelia]

Oh I don't think Chan will be satisfied with anything other than gold. Let's be honest every top skater wants one thing to win! I do think he'll win SC because well it's in Canada.lol home advantage. As a Hanyu fan I think it will be a lot harder for anyone to win because the men's field has grown so much stronger than it was in 2013-2014 season.

Never forget. http://i58.tinypic.com/xlj9qw.jpg

 

[Blades of Passion]

WOW… i know you are a passionate poster and I respect that a lot… but "trite" "formulaic" and "bland" are not words i would use to describe Patrick's Vivaldi… I can agree with you that sometimes his performances may be a bit lacking but the TEB you are referring to gave me goosebumps… it's was not only clean but it was fluid, thoughtful, engaged and mature… i think some people really don't understand what interpretation means… Surya was engaging but her posture was all over the place, she barely skated in between jumps… giving us very boring static skating, just throwing arms around and pushing with one foot like in this (at 3:00) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suSVkTrgwAE… if that's what you find engaging, then fair enough… we will simply passionately disagree

Indeed. "Clean and fluid" do not mean good interpretation. There was very little movement to the music in Patrick's program. It was just the jumps lined up in exactly the easiest way possible and generic open arms and random turns.

Surya's program starts with a spin in accordance with the churning of the music and then a double axel with no speed at all on the musical change. That is GREAT interpretation. Who even tries something like that these days? Nobody at all. Her movement actually goes with the ebb and flow of the music. Spirals trying to reflect the languorous sections. Jumps placed somewhere because that's what the music builds too. Angular arms and, yes, toe pushes that directly reflect the music. Dramatic stops. It creates a real picture and feeling and sense of transportation. Didn't matter that her skating skills were relatively weak (aside from the stumble in the first part of the program). Her movements DID interpret the music, very effectively for the most part. There's just a few spots where better transitions would have helped and better skating skills would have made it even more mesmerizing.

 

[usethis2]

I have never seen that performance of Ms. Bonaly and I am really impressed! Incredible interpretation for the first half. For some reason the latter half of the program became a bit confusing but I am guessing that was because she back-loaded her jumping passes. (Was back-loading a thing back in the days?)