Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Jombi]

Hello fellow Chanyu fans!
I was listening to an interview/monologue given by Massimiliano Ambesi (very knowledgeable commentator for italian esp) and I think he made some spot-on observations. He was quoting Lorenzo Magri (italian coach and technical specialist) who told him in 2012 to "watch this skater Hanyu because he's going to be the one who will force the isu to change/modify its own judging system". 3 years later, going back to those words, Ambesi feels like Magri was right because Hanyu has pushed the technical boundaries soo much that there's no more complete parallelism between PCS/TES in terms of value (max score with PCS is 100 but for TES ..sky is the limit). Hanyu has established a trend and now everyone is adapting, following his "lead" (with Boyang being the extreme expression of this path).

So what do you think about it, do you agree with this view? And if so, how do you read Chan's strategy within this context? It seems to go against this specific direction the sport has taken (not upping his tech content - at least for now - and going for the purity and the cleanliness). I mean, if his goal is to enjoy skating and to delight us with programs on par with the ones he presented so far this season I'm all for it, but if his goal is an OGM ..I don't know if this strategy will cut it.

Slighly OT, do you think it's possible that the rules will be adjusted/changed because of Hanyu's domino effect? And if so, in what way?

Link to the interview, the mentioned part starts at min 33 (I hope it's ok to give the link..if not, just tell me and I'll remove it!).

 

[chuckm]

Then you have Boyang Jin who at Cup of China landed in his FS 4z, 4s, 4t and 4t in combination plus two 3As, a 3Z and a 3F.

 

[4everchan]

I think many people don't get what I am saying here. I don't think Chan is perfect ... nobody is... even Hanyu

but there are too many people hanging out on this thread with an agenda to use whatever they can to belittle him. I find this disrespectful and unfair, not only to Chan but to all skating fans. These are the people I am addressing my comments to.

For instance, people say that he is out of shape, doesn't have a 3A etc etc... that he shouldn't come back until he is at least back in Sochi's shape...

well he skated his LP at SC better than in Sochi right?

People complain skaters fall too often... then he skates clean, then people complain his program is too easy?

Whatever Chan does, for many people here, it will lead to negativity. I think that's unfair. That's my point. I have approached it in various angles, and I guess perhaps trying analogies or comparing with others doesn't work for whatever reason. So that's all I will say.... I wish people were more COMPASSIONATE to these athletes who have to live their life harassed by media... and gave them them some slack.
Have you said something you regretted at one point in your life? Be happy that it wasn't on media... and worse, and perhaps that why I am so sensitive because it has happened to me, have you ever been quoted out of context? That's really hurtful when it happens... especially when people keep bringing it back... and no i don't need another set of links or quotes trying to show that Chan said what he said purposefully and to dismiss other skaters.... like what a couple people did here... that's for me, gossip...

Beside all else though, 4everchan, are you seriously saying that anyone who says that they don't like some of what Chan says in interviews and think it sounds arrogant or unclassy are 'haters'?

I just don't get it. What is wrong with loving someone, being a huge fan and still saying, "Yeah, he sometimes has foot in mouth syndrome. That really does sound a bit off. I think he is a really nice guy but he needs to think before he speaks"? I've sure said that about people of which I'm a fan!

 

[noskates]

4everchan...........could not agree with you more. There is a blatant lack of respect in a lot of instances here and I wish people would realize and take into account what these skaters give up to do what they do. Many of them are young and many of them are not comfortable being interviewed. There is no class you can take to handle press.

 

[MaxSwagg]

4everchan...........could not agree with you more. There is a blatant lack of respect in a lot of instances here and I wish people would realize and take into account what these skaters give up to do what they do. Many of them are young and many of them are not comfortable being interviewed. There is no class you can take to handle press.

^You don't need a class to learn to think before you speak, especially when you're almost 25 years old.

 

[chuckm]

Chan will turn 25 next month, so he's not a child. The one thing he has never learned to do is to think before he speaks and unfortunately, during his career he has said things that have alienated former fans and tarnished his own image.

In short, you have to show respect to others to have others respect you. There have been times when Mr. Chan has not been quite so willing to do that.

 

[apple123]

^You don't need a class to learn to think before you speak, especially when you're almost 25 years old.

Would you stop attacking skaters and other posters? It seems all you do is saying mean things about skaters and posters who don't agree with you. Yet you are talking about thinking before opening your mouth.

 

[Sai Bon]

4everchan...........could not agree with you more. There is a blatant lack of respect in a lot of instances here and I wish people would realize and take into account what these skaters give up to do what they do. Many of them are young and many of them are not comfortable being interviewed. There is no class you can take to handle press.

Well actually there are plenty, run by PR companies and such. I'm sure all top-tier skaters in the West (including Japan) are well trained on how to handle the press. But the poor skaters are often interviewed when they're still suffering from an adrenalin rush or just after. You can't expect them to be word prefect. And the press seem to be geniuses at asking irritating questions.

I do think Patrick has an unfortunate case of foot in mouth syndrome. It also doesn't help that he speaks English, a language many people understand, whereas Yuzu speaks Japanese and possibly some of his less discreet remarks have escaped international scrutiny. Also Yuzu seems to be a very well brought-up young man, Japanese style. Japanese culture is very down on arrogance. You are conditioned to put yourself down and raise others up from an early age. So for Yuzu it is psychologically almost intuitive to say admiring things about his rivals and point out his own failings, whereas being critical of others and promoting yourself is much more accepted as a rule in European/North American culture.

I think Yuzu and Mao are as fiercely competitive as Patrick at al, but they express it differently.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Would you stop attacking other posters? It seems all you do is saying mean things about skaters and posters who don't agree with you. Yet you are talking about thinking before opening your mouth.

No. I've never "attacked" anyone or any skater on here. Just because I'm clear in how a feel and don't put a smiley face at the end or say "in my opinion" every time doesn't mean it's an "attack" or "mean". I feel I've shown myself to be very friendly to everyone on here. I have my disagreements with others as they do with me when it comes to skaters (i.e. 4everchan and CanadianSkaterGuy on D/R vs. V/T, etc.) but I'm not vicious. I don't like vicious. In this thread, I also don't gloss over the seemingly snide remarks, whether intentional or not, from Patrick like some of his fans do. He's a fantastic skater but his media skills are...not that great in many instances.

 

[Sandpiper]

Hello fellow Chanyu fans!
I was listening to an interview/monologue given by Massimiliano Ambesi (very knowledgeable commentator for italian esp) and I think he made some spot-on observations. He was quoting Lorenzo Magri (italian coach and technical specialist) who told him in 2012 to "watch this skater Hanyu because he's going to be the one who will force the isu to change/modify its own judging system". 3 years later, going back to those words, Ambesi feels like Magri was right because Hanyu has pushed the technical boundaries soo much that there's no more complete parallelism between PCS/TES in terms of value (max score with PCS is 100 but for TES ..sky is the limit). Hanyu has established a trend and now everyone is adapting, following his "lead" (with Boyang being the extreme expression of this path).

So what do you think about it, do you agree with this view? And if so, how do you read Chan's strategy within this context? It seems to go against this specific direction the sport has taken (not upping his tech content - at least for now - and going for the purity and the cleanliness). I mean, if his goal is to enjoy skating and to delight us with programs on par with the ones he presented so far this season I'm all for it, but if his goal is an OGM ..I don't know if this strategy will cut it.

Slighly OT, do you think it's possible that the rules will be adjusted/changed because of Hanyu's domino effect? And if so, in what way?

Link to the interview, the mentioned part starts at min 33 (I hope it's ok to give the link..if not, just tell me and I'll remove it!).

So far this year, I'm not spotting a huge problem. Patrick Chan pulled 190 for his LP at Skate Canada, with jump content similar to what Kulik or Stojko did circa 1996. Boyang did four clean quads across two programs and couldn't beat a flawed Javier. So far, the scores seem to favour the PCS skater.

My two cents: I believe in rewarding difficulty when it hits, but rewarding the cleaner skate if the difficult one doesn't hit.

As for Patrick, I don't think it's a choice for him at this point. I don't think he's physically capable of three quads and two triple axels in a free skate; trying will probably end in disaster (and many sad fans here in Canada). Sticking with what he can do is his only choice, for now at least.

 

[noskates]

I have NEVER heard of training for top echelon skaters on how to handle the press. And I don't care how old a person is, it's still difficult to be interviewed. I wish people would stop and think before they post relatively anonymously on the internet where there are no repercussions. These skaters are not big-time celebrities. They're athletes and their first responsibility is to their skating. I think sometimes too much credence and damnation is put into an off-hand remark. Yes everyone should think before they speak but the reality is that doesn't always happen. It doesn't make a person "bad" or mean. Mean is when you tee off on someone in an open forum on the internet hiding behind a screen name.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I was listening to an interview/monologue given by Massimiliano Ambesi (very knowledgeable commentator for italian esp) and I think he made some spot-on observations. He was quoting Lorenzo Magri (italian coach and technical specialist) who told him in 2012 to "watch this skater Hanyu because he's going to be the one who will force the isu to change/modify its own judging system". 3 years later, going back to those words, Ambesi feels like Magri was right because Hanyu has pushed the technical boundaries soo much that there's no more complete parallelism between PCS/TES in terms of value (max score with PCS is 100 but for TES ..sky is the limit). Hanyu has established a trend and now everyone is adapting, following his "lead" (with Boyang being the extreme expression of this path).

So what do you think about it, do you agree with this view?

PCS needs to be adjusted next season for both Men's and Ladies', because of the increased tech. SP factor in Ladies needs to go up to .9 (but stay at 1.6 for the LP) and for Men it needs to go up to 1.1 SP and 2.2 LP.

That would result in max possible PCS of 45/80 for Ladies and 55/110 for Men.

This change would make the SP slightly more important on the whole for the Ladies event (36% of the overall score instead of 33.3%), but that's accurate to begin with. The SP is the same amount of time for both Men and Ladies, but the Men's LP is 30 seconds longer and requires an extra jump. Men are actually doing 2x as much skating in the LP, but Ladies are not.

Then in PAIRS skating, a Quad should be introduced as an allowed SP element (either throw or twist, just 1 allowed of the team's choice), with the PCS factor increasing to .9 for the SP and 1.7 for the LP.

Oh, and the SP bonus for backloaded jumps needs to be changed. It shouldn't ever apply to the first jump of the program and it should start at 60% of the way through the program rather than 50%.

 

[Jombi]

PCS needs to be adjusted next season for both Men's and Ladies', because of the increased tech. SP factor in Ladies needs to go up to .9 (but stay at 1.6 for the LP) and for Men it needs to go up to 1.1 SP and 2.2 LP.

That would result in max possible PCS of 45/80 for Ladies and 55/110 for Men.

Oh, that was easy, problem solved! I actually agree with you, adjusted factoring seems to me the easiest way to recalibrate PCS value (thanks for providing the actual numbers, they make sense!).
Was this new weighed factoring already included into your "complete guidelines.."? (I think so but can't quite remember and cannot find the original thread).
Do you think this potential change is actually "in the air"? Or it's something we're talking about but the isu isn't even remotely considering? I'm asking you cause you seem to be a little bit more "in the loop" than the average fan (eg. me).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think some Chan fan here should just honestly admit that they do not like Yuzuru or like to interpret him in negative light in many aspect with all the subtle shades toward his costume, his skating style , his Pooh , his face, , his attitude.....

So we know when we should just let go of your comment understanding that you just don't like him no matter what instead of trying to have a discussion.

Agreed. I feel the same way about Chan bashers. Violet bliss summarized it quite nicely in his/her comment about haters will continue to hate no matter what.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

PCS needs to be adjusted next season for both Men's and Ladies', because of the increased tech. SP factor in Ladies needs to go up to .9 (but stay at 1.6 for the LP) and for Men it needs to go up to 1.1 SP and 2.2 LP.

That would result in max possible PCS of 45/80 for Ladies and 55/110 for Men.

This change would make the SP slightly more important on the whole for the Ladies event (36% of the overall score instead of 33.3%), but that's accurate to begin with. The SP is the same amount of time for both Men and Ladies, but the Men's LP is 30 seconds longer and requires an extra jump. Men are actually doing 2x as much skating in the LP, but Ladies are not.

Then in PAIRS skating, a Quad should be introduced as an allowed SP element (either throw or twist, just 1 allowed of the team's choice), with the PCS factor increasing to .9 for the SP and 1.7 for the LP.

Oh, and the SP bonus for backloaded jumps needs to be changed. It shouldn't ever apply to the first jump of the program and it should start at 60% of the way through the program rather than 50%.

I disagree that PCS should be any more significant than it already is. Judges already use it to manipulate results and giving something so subjective even greater value will only be less beneficial to less popular, second tier skaters, while giving an even greater advantage to popular skaters (even when they make mistakes).

I agree about the SP having a second half bonus after 60% of it, and they need to bring back second half bonuses in pairs and allow a quad element in the short program (while increasing the BV of quad throws).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No. I've never "attacked" anyone or any skater on here. I feel I've shown myself to be very friendly to everyone on here.

I can't even.... You really need to re-assess how you come across. Saying Chan has dead fish eyes or some of the comments you've made towards Max are mean-spirited and concerted efforts to bash them. They're certainly not examples of being "very friendly".

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Since this thread is about Chan-Hanyu, I would like to ask one question:

Does Chan plan to add another Quad?

At this point he doesn't need to (right now his priority should be skatin clean with his current content and maybe bring back the 3s series even though it's only like 1.5 points extra than a -2T-2L). But I'd like to see him add another quad. Many posters have suggested he needs one and I think skate Canada proved that to stay in top contention it isn't necessary for him, just like having a second triple axel isn't critical even if he is giving up 2.5 points on it repeating a lutz instead (which is smarter since he's way more consistent with it). Come 2018 though he might very well need it.

 

[m0001]

Ironically MAXSwagg says "I've never "attacked" anyone or any skater on here. I feel I've shown myself to be very friendly to everyone on here." How many times have you said "Chan has dead fish eyes" and other bad comments. Perhaps you think your English is better than any other people, who don't understand your compliments (if you think that expression is really nice and friendly).

 

[4everchan]

i think he will add the second 4t… that was probably already planned…

as for the 3S series… he often doubled the 3S… i don't think it was very advantageous for him in then end…

people are asking mostly if he plans to add a completely different jump (4S) and there I agree with you… no point… same with 3A… when he get positive GOE on his lutz, there's no need to risk stepping out of a second 3A….

I just wish the second jump of a combo didn't count in zayak rule as he could easily put 3Ts at the end of 4t, 3lz and 3f

At this point he doesn't need to (right now his priority should be skatin clean with his current content and maybe bring back the 3s series even though it's only like 1.5 points extra than a -2T-2L). But I'd like to see him add another quad. Many posters have suggested he needs one and I think skate Canada proved that to stay in top contention it isn't necessary for him, just like having a second triple axel isn't critical even if he is giving up 2.5 points on it repeating a lutz instead (which is smarter since he's way more consistent with it). Come 2018 though he might very well need it.

 

[m0001]

Chan will turn 25 next month, so he's not a child. The one thing he has never learned to do is to think before he speaks and unfortunately, during his career he has said things that have alienated former fans and tarnished his own image.

In short, you have to show respect to others to have others respect you. There have been times when Mr. Chan has not been quite so willing to do that.

Chuckm, was it you who made up the story "Chan's angry outburst on seeing his SP score of 80.81"? I don't know your age, but according to your standard, you "are not a child". Are you responsible for everything you have said? For people who didn't check the fact, started to believe Chan really had a bad behavior. Don't you feel guilty for making up such a story?