Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Mathman]

Certainly many top skaters of the past had high-level skating skills superior to average senior-level skaters today, even though their jump content was lower.

We can also look at transitions in past-era programs in terms of the same scale that we look at transitions in today's programs.

I think it is a difficult and inconclusive comparison. Under the present scoring system skaters are encouraged to do X number of moves from a list of steps, turns, and moves in the field. If you do X+1 of them (with satisfactory quality), then you can hope that the judges counted correctly and you will get a higher TR mark, and maybe also SS.

Under ordinal judging, although skaters were told by their coaches to "work on your in-betweens," it is not clear how busy feet translated into a higher second mark. The fans (I am not sure about the judges) were more impressed by graceful upper body movements and pretty positions.

 

[gkelly]

The logic is:

A skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality difficult jumps, between the jumps and spins, deserves a higher score than another skater show does easier high-quality skating, highlight moves, and transitions and easier jumps.

True enough.

But (ignoring the fact that difficulty and quality are a continuum), let's consider only two either/or difficulty variables for both jumps and transitions:

I would expect the Transitions scores to range from highest to lowest in this order:

Difficult transitions, difficult jumps
Difficult transitions, easy jumps
Easy transitions, difficult jumps
Easy transitions, easy jumps

I would expect the Technical Elements score to range
Difficult transitions, difficult jumps
Easy transitions, difficult jumps
Difficult transitions, easy jumps
Easy transitions, easy jumps

The jump content should not drive the Transitions score to the point that the actual transitions performed are ignored.

 

[gkelly]

I think it is a difficult and inconclusive comparison. Under the present scoring system skaters are encouraged to do X number of moves from a list of steps, turns, and moves in the field. If you do X+1 of them (with satisfactory quality), then you can hope that the judges counted correctly and you will get a higher TR mark, and maybe also SS.

Not really. The list of X number of steps and turns only applies to the levels in the leveled step sequence. Any steps, turns, and moves in the field that are performed in the middle of a leveled step sequence or choreo sequence would count toward the score for that sequence (and might affect the score for Skating Skills). But they wouldn't affect the score for Transitions in any way, because the Transitions score applies to moves done between the elements, and as entries and exits to elements, not in the middle of elements.

What would be more relevant would be to say that under IJS skaters are encouraged to do X number of jumps, spins, and step sequences. If they do an extra listed jump (e.g., a split-flip), or an extra sequence of steps or field moves (e.g., a full length of the rink leading into the short program solo jump), we can hope that the judges recognize that those moves are not part of an element and credit them as transitions. Usually it's pretty obvious, but in freeskates sometimes the ladies and pairs especially are so perfunctory in executing their choreo sequences that I'm not always sure if they just performed an element or if that was just a transitional move or two.

In 20th century free programs, step sequences and spiral/field moves sequences weren't required, so looking at historical programs with IJS eyes means deciding whether to count some of those sequences as elements or as transitions if we want to compare those programs to recent ones.

Also, for low-revolution jumps with variations such varied air positions, depending on whether they count as listed jumps and when they occur during the program, IJS rules might consider them as filling jump boxes (and blocking later triples from counting). But in 6.0 era late enough that multiple triples were expected, judges probably considered those highlight jumps more as transitions and we should apply the same logic in looking back at past programs.

Under ordinal judging, although skaters were told by their coaches to "work on your in-betweens," it is not clear how busy feet translated into a higher second mark. The fans (I am not sure about the judges) were more impressed by graceful upper body movements and pretty positions.

Depends on the fans, probably. E.g., I remember wars between Boitano fans who favored simplicity and big spread eagles, vs. Orser or Browning fans who favored quick feet.

 

[gsyzf]

True enough.

But (ignoring the fact that difficulty and quality are a continuum), let's consider only two either/or difficulty variables for both jumps and transitions:

I would expect the Transitions scores to range from highest to lowest in this order:

Difficult transitions, difficult jumps
Difficult transitions, easy jumps
Easy transitions, difficult jumps
Easy transitions, easy jumps

I would expect the Technical Elements score to range
Difficult transitions, difficult jumps
Easy transitions, difficult jumps
Difficult transitions, easy jumps
Easy transitions, easy jumps

The jump content should not drive the Transitions score to the point that the actual transitions performed are ignored.

I agree with your ranking. Difficult transitions, difficult jumps should score higher than Easy transitions, easy jumps.

But the ranking for Difficult transitions, easy jumps and Easy transitions, difficult jumps don't always turn out the way you expected. The main reason is there are no official base values for the difficulty of transitions, and there are no definite scores for the quality of transitions. Both of the difficulty and quality of transitions are at the discretion of the judges. So there is more room for subjective judging and bias. So the final Transitions score will be inevitably influenced by factors not related to the skater's skills, e.g. reputation, skate order, nationalistic bias, audience reaction etc.

Jumps have official base values and judges can't dispute that. Difficult jumps will at least receive higher base values than easy jumps.

 

[David21]

The logic is:

A skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality difficult jumps, between the jumps and spins, deserves a higher score than another skater who does easier high-quality skating, highlight moves, and transitions and easier jumps.

It wouldn't be fair for the former skater to get a lower score than the latter skater. The former skater demonstrates he has better skills.

That was not what I meant.

My logic is:

A skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality difficult jumps deserves the samer score as another skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality easier jumps.

The difficulty of the jumps is already considered under the basemark in the TES. It would be unfair for a skater who doesn't master the more difficult jumps to get less PCS scores than a skater with more difficult jumps even though the rest of his skating is the same or better. In the PCS, a super duper high quality spread eagle into a cantilever into a choctaw into a nice double lutz deserves the same scores as a skater who that same move into a triple lutz. The jump is not judged in the PCS.

 

[qwertyskates]

Hi yelowricenoodle, WELL SAID!:agree:

 

[qwertyskates]

Umm. I'm not sure that how speed skaters use hydro blading is relevant in figure skating. I believe Hanyu had already done 3 quads by the time he executed that hydroblade, which is in the middle of a choreo sequence . In Riverdance, Jason used it as a transition between a triple flip-double toe and a double axel - in fact, he went immediately up from a brief hydro blade to the 2A. So the challenge was maintaining balance through out that entire sequence. And incidentally, he performed the move at about the 4 minute mark, after his very taxing footwork, a Russian split, six triples and two doubles. Not really comparable to what a speed skater does.

To place this post in context, it is in reply to those who think that the hydroblade is part of the test of one's SS. I am pointing out that, no, in fact, it isn't a taxing, challenging, difficult move, but a visual choreography. It isn't demanding of the body, or technically challenging. This is in fact a move that helps the body balance itself, the way speed skaters use it to turn corners. As a choreography, it is great as it allows the skater to rest while delivering a "WOW" factor. However, it isn't something that showcases great SS.

 

[qwertyskates]

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post, and welcome!

I do not agree, however, that Patrick excels at the artistic side of the sport. In recent years I would list Stephan Lambiel, Daisuke Takahashi, and maybe even Jeremy Abbott as skaters who put more emphasis on musical interpretation, choreography and artistic expression.

Where Patrick does excel, IMHO, is in blade to ice skills. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he was the first skater to recognize that quality of edge, precision in steps and turns, etc., are exactly what the (then) new judging system was eager to reward.

I disagree in that to me SS itself is an art form, just like, say, Brazil's art of soccer or Jet Li's martial arts.

Further, I find Patrick's musicality to the classical warhorses he picked excellent and impressive, expressing every nuance, note, changes in tempo, which is very difficult to do, especially with Chopin, with its rhythmic technique rubato, slowing up or speeding down the melody according to the flow of the piece. It's hard and very tiring to play catchup with what the fingers naturally perform on the piano. Classical music is very challenging, just look at how Firebird overwhelms Gracie such that she appears slow even though she is a very powerful skater.

Hanyu is very intelligent in picking Seimei, he can skate to the base tempo or the melody, the quick or the slow, this allows him room to introduce ina bauer, hydroblade, spread eagle, which are all less frenetic and allow him to take a breather. He absolutely picked up for his step sequences, that's where the sharp contrast came in, the excitement becomes infectious and builds to a crescendo, sending the audience to their feet.

This is something Patrick may have to absorb and learn, he might need to perform to an easier, more paced out skate, but one which builds momentum and crescendos, in order to play the "tide of emotions" of the audience.

 

[gsyzf]

That was not what I meant.

My logic is:

A skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality difficult jumps deserves the samer score as another skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality easier jumps.

The difficulty of the jumps is already considered under the basemark in the TES. It would be unfair for a skater who doesn't master the more difficult jumps to get less PCS scores than a skater with more difficult jumps even though the rest of his skating is the same or better. In the PCS, a super duper high quality spread eagle into a cantilever into a choctaw into a nice double lutz deserves the same scores as a skater who that same move into a triple lutz. The jump is not judged in the PCS.

Because it's much easier to do high quality difficult transitions when a skater doesn't need to do difficult jumps (+ other difficult elements) like quads. Difficult jumps consume more energy and cause more mental stress. The difficult transitions become even more difficult when the skater also needs to do difficult jumps. The TES rewards jumps, but it doesn't reward this additional difficulty, so that needs to be reflected in the PCS. I don't think judges should give significantly higher SS and TR scores since jumps are already rewarded in the TES, (just slightly more is enough), but I do think judges should recognize this additional difficulty due to the impact difficult jumps have on the skater and the rest of the program. A skater who executes high quality difficult jumps and difficult transitions demonstrates superior skills than a skater who executes high quality easier jumps and difficult transitions.

Here is gkelly's post. I agree with her ranking.

But (ignoring the fact that difficulty and quality are a continuum), let's consider only two either/or difficulty variables for both jumps and transitions:

I would expect the Transitions scores to range from highest to lowest in this order:

Difficult transitions, difficult jumps
Difficult transitions, easy jumps
Easy transitions, difficult jumps
Easy transitions, easy jumps

I would expect the Technical Elements score to range
Difficult transitions, difficult jumps
Easy transitions, difficult jumps
Difficult transitions, easy jumps
Easy transitions, easy jumps

The jump content should not drive the Transitions score to the point that the actual transitions performed are ignored.

 

[gkelly]

Well, it's a challenge compared to holding a simple edge in a neutral body position, because greater balance skill and flexibility are required than just gliding upright on an edge.

Same for spirals, spread eagles, etc.

They're only "rests" in comparison to complex steps -- or jumps and spins.

And changing body positions and balance over the blade quickly, e.g. by going from one of these non-neutral positions directly into a jump or spin, is that much more challenging. Not a rest at all.

I'd say it counts as a difficult transition, especially directly in or out of an element. Not a difficult skating skill.

 

[Rissa]

If I were a judge, I would mark DOWN for moves like cantilevers and ESPECIALLY hydroblading. Imo, they do not belong in a competitive program. Before I get accused of bashing any skaters currently using those moves let me explain further.

When I first saw hydroblading it was with Bourne and Kraatz, whom I was a big fan of. When B/K trained briefly under Klimova/Potomorenko they tried to convince B/K to leave out the hydroblading as they viewed it as gimmicky. That's when I realized that those moves were not considered to be SS. In B/K's defense, they at least moved their hydroblading from side to side upping the difficulty but it was still not what I consider to be mastery of the blade.

What the eff? So what if cantilevers and hydroblading are not SS? They are great choreographic moves, something that rounds up a program. Can some people finally make up their mind whether figure skating is supposed to be just about the technical or not? Maybe lets mark down Javi's clapping against his tights during his Spanish SP. That's not SS either, and easy thing for anyone to do and just a gimmick to emphasize the music... Oh wait.

 

[David21]

Because it's much easier to do high quality difficult transitions when a skater doesn't need to do difficult jumps (+ other difficult elements) like quads. Difficult jumps consume more energy and cause more mental stress. The difficult transitions become even more difficult when the skater also needs to do difficult jumps. The TES rewards jumps, but it doesn't reward this additional difficulty, so that needs to be reflected in the PCS.

Difficult jumps count in the base mark for TES. A difficult entry into a jump can increase the GOE for that jump, and the bonus for a +1 GOE for a triple jump is higher than that for a double jump, so the skater already gets a reward for transitions into more difficult jumps. The skater doesn't need another extra reward in the PCS for that IMO.

 

[Tavi...]

To place this post in context, it is in reply to those who think that the hydroblade is part of the test of one's SS. I am pointing out that, no, in fact, it isn't a taxing, challenging, difficult move, but a visual choreography. It isn't demanding of the body, or technically challenging. This is in fact a move that helps the body balance itself, the way speed skaters use it to turn corners. As a choreography, it is great as it allows the skater to rest while delivering a "WOW" factor. However, it isn't something that showcases great SS.

As far as I can tell, all you're doing is stating and restating your opinion - that a hydro blade isn't challenging, taxing or difficult - as if it were fact, without providing any supporting evidence. Even assuming that what you say about the use of hydro blades by speed skaters is true, that doesn't necessarily translate directly to figure skating. You're ignoring the fact that figure skating and speed skating are different sports.

For example, as it's pretty well known that the faster you skate the easier it is to balance. A figure skater executing a hydroblade in the middle of footwork is unlikely to be traveling at he same speed as a speed skater, so it won't be as easy for the figure skater to maintain balance as it is for the speed skater. Similarly, if the figure skater has to rise from a hydroblade directly into a 2A, as Jason Brown did in Riverdance, he's challenging his core strength and balance far more than if he just approached the jump straight. There's a reason why points are awarded for transitions - it's because they make executing the jumps more difficult.

 

[qwertyskates]

As far as I can tell, all you're doing is stating and restating your opinion - that a hydro blade isn't challenging, taxing or difficult - as if it were fact, without providing any supporting evidence. Even assuming that what you say about the use of hydro blades by speed skaters is true, that doesn't necessarily translate directly to figure skating. You're ignoring the fact that figure skating and speed skating are different sports.

For example, as it's pretty well known that the faster you skate the easier it is to balance. A figure skater executing a hydroblade in the middle of footwork is unlikely to be traveling at he same speed as a speed skater, so it won't be as easy for the figure skater to maintain balance as it is for the speed skater. Similarly, if the figure skater has to rise from a hydroblade directly into a 2A, as Jason Brown did in Riverdance, he's challenging his core strength and balance far more than if he just approached the jump straight. There's a reason why points are awarded for transitions - it's because they make executing the jumps more difficult.

We're going round and round in circles, you don't seem to read my posts. Of course doing a hydroblade/ina bauer/spread eagle before an element is more difficult than not doing one, and they are marked and awarded as transitions. I am pointing out that they don't count as part of SS, and on their own, they aren't difficult for elite skaters to do, though ina bauers require greater flexibility, and not as tiring as executing field steps or moves, thus providing a breather from more frenetic steps. That is all. If you keep misreading and insist that I meant something else, then it isn't my problem. Let's end this here. It is getting uncomfortable.

Thanks everyone, I'm outa here. I'll visit but not post anymore. Peace.

 

[Tavi...]

We're going round and round in circles, you don't seem to read my posts. Of course doing a hydroblade/ina bauer/spread eagle before an element is more difficult than not doing one, and they are marked and awarded as transitions. I am pointing out that they don't count as part of SS, and on their own, they aren't difficult for elite skaters to do, though ina bauers require greater flexibility, and not as tiring as executing field steps or moves, thus providing a breather from more frenetic steps. That is all. If you keep misreading and insist that I meant something else, then it isn't my problem. Let's end this here. It is getting uncomfortable.

Thanks everyone, I'm outa here. I'll visit but not post anymore. Peace.

You're welcome not to respond but in fact I did read - not misread - your posts.

 

[blueberryhill]

Thanks everyone, I'm outa here. I'll visit but not post anymore. Peace.

I came to the same conclusion a few pages back but from here on I won't bother at all. Forums used to be a way to learn and get other opinions, now it's just to bash other skaters and shout down those that disagree with you.

 

[Mathman]

A skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality difficult jumps deserves the samer score as another skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality easier jumps...

In the PCS, a super duper high quality spread eagle into a cantilever into a choctaw into a nice double lutz deserves the same scores as a skater who that same move into a triple lutz. The jump is not judged in the PCS.

I believe that this is the intent of the ISU judging system. What is not so clear is whether the judges actually follow the intent, or whether they (like us) are so impressed by a great skate with huge triple jumps that they unconsciously give unearned "bonuses" in the SS and TR categories.

The classic instance of this was the Joe Inman controversy at the 2010 Olympics. Evgeny Plushenko made an off-hand joke about Brian Joubert, saying, "I don't see why Joubert gets high marks in Transitions. He does the same transitions as I do -- none."

U.S. judge Joe Inman seized on this quote to vent on his pet peeve -- the fact that ISU judges in general were not scoring the components correctly according to the rules. He dashed off an email rant to forty or so international judges telling them that Plushenko indeed has no transitions and if they were judging correctly they would be giving him 3's. (Paraphrased according to my recollection).

Inman was accused of trying to bash Plushenko to help Lysacek wnl the Olympics. And indeed, Plushenko's transitions scpres ranged from 6.0 (judges who agreed with Inman) to 8.75 (judges who thought that Plushenko was great across the board regardless).

 

[Mathman]

Thanks everyone, I'm outa here. I'll visit but not post anymore. Peace.

I came to the same conclusion a few pages back but from here on I won't bother at all. Forums used to be a way to learn and get other opinions, now it's just to bash other skaters and shout down those that disagree with you.

If I beg, will you change your minds?

Personally, I learn the most when posters come on board to tell me I'm all wet and know nothing about skating. (I won't mention any names, but it's not Fred Astaire. )

 

[HanDomi]

I believe that this is the intent of the ISU judging system. What is not so clear is whether the judges actually follow the intent, or whether they (like us) are so impressed by a great skate with huge triple jumps that they unconsciously give unearned "bonuses" in the SS and TR categories.

The classic instance of this was the Joe Inman controversy at the 2010 Olympics. Evgeny Plushenko made an off-hand joke about Brian Joubert, saying, "I don't see why Joubert gets high marks in Transitions. He does the same transitions as I do -- none."

U.S. judge Joe Inman seized on this quote to vent on his pet peeve -- the fact that ISU judges in general were not scoring the components correctly according to the rules. He dashed off an email rant to forty or so international judges telling them that Plushenko indeed has no transitions and if they were judging correctly they would be giving him 3's. (Paraphrased according to my recollection).

Inman was accused of trying to bash Plushenko to help Lysacek wnl the Olympics. And indeed, Plushenko's transitions scpres ranged from 6.0 (judges who agreed with Inman) to 8.75 (judges who thought that Plushenko was great across the board regardless).

Well, that was true that Plush didn't have any transitions But I don't remember any of Lysacek programs from Oly right now so it's hard for me to tell how it was in his programs

 

[gsyzf]

Difficult jumps count in the base mark for TES. A difficult entry into a jump can increase the GOE for that jump, and the bonus for a +1 GOE for a triple jump is higher than that for a double jump, so the skater already gets a reward for transitions into more difficult jumps. The skater doesn't need another extra reward in the PCS for that IMO.

Transitions are rewarded in both GOE and PCS. Sometimes I wonder if they are rewarded too much because it looks like transitions are rewarded twice. In a similar way, jumps are rewarded in the TES, but it is also indirectly rewarded in the PCS (to less extent). It looks like both transitions and jumps are double rewarded. It looks like transitions boost the TES and difficult jumps also boost the PCS.

To not over-reward, I think that only transitions directly before and after jumps/other elements should be rewarded in both GOE and PCS because these transitions make the jumps more difficult, but also make the whole program more difficult. Transitions placed far away from the elements should only be rewarded in PCS. I don't mean all jumps boost the PCS. Only very difficult jumps that have significant impact on the rest of the programs should have an impact on the PCS, e.g. quads for men and 3A for ladies. The easy triples shouldn't get rewarded in the PCS.