Coaches' Corner

[vorravorra]

I really hate it when I realize that I actually have the material for checking things out in my possession and then spent a significant part of my Friday evening doing just that...

I have kept a list of men who have jumped quads and although it is not totally up to date (not a whole lot of things happened last season though), it is a pretty good source for this. I added years of birth and I already had usually the first time they tried a quad in an international competition (I have tried to check national data, but it is often difficult to find, so international is simply easier and more reliable).

There are some 110 men doing quads at the moment, 65 of them born before 2000 and 46 after that. Among the elderly gentlemen ( ) the age at first attempts ranged from from 15 to 24 and the average was 18-19 years. The youngest ones were Nathan, Boyang, Dmitri Aliev and Yan Han. For the second group (2000-2006 births), the age at first attempts ranged from 14 to 20 and the average was 16. This will probably change a little bit in time - there will be those late bloomers who get their quads in their 20s. The number of 14-15 year olds was 18, almost 40% of all (in addition to Gogolev, Kiu Miura and Daniil Samsonov were 14).

There seems to be a pretty strong tendency among men to start quads earlier. I wonder if this is somehow inspired by the girls doing successful quads at an early age?

E

Samsonov landed a quad lutz at 13 before he even entered juniors (maybe even earlier, I just don't remember what was happening with him before that). And 14-15 isn't actually early these days, early is in novices. As to why boys are trying quads earlier, I don't think it's just due to what's happening with girls. At least in Russia it's also rising competition among boys and the fact that RusFed loves ultra-c elements, the more and the earlier the better and damn the consequences. But still, novices seems to be mainly an Eteri thing, she had this idea about how that would teach boys not to be afraid of quads, but I think now that's a bit obsolete since I don't think the new generation is afraid of quads, they jump as many as they can manage to physically.

 

[eppen]

Samsonov landed a quad lutz at 13 before he even entered juniors (maybe even earlier, I just don't remember what was happening with him before that). And 14-15 isn't actually early these days, early is in novices. As to why boys are trying quads earlier, I don't think it's just due to what's happening with girls. At least in Russia it's also rising competition among boys and the fact that RusFed loves ultra-c elements, the more and the earlier the better and damn the consequences. But still, novices seems to be mainly an Eteri thing, she had this idea about how that would teach boys not to be afraid of quads, but I think now that's a bit obsolete since I don't think the new generation is afraid of quads, they jump as many as they can manage to physically.

That is interesting to know! But obviously the same happens also in other countries - the data for them is just not usually easily accessible. And yeah, these boys have grown up with the images of multiple quadsters firmly in their brains, so I would also imagine being afraid of quads might not be a thing.

E

 

[gliese]

That is interesting to know! But obviously the same happens also in other countries - the data for them is just not usually easily accessible. And yeah, these boys have grown up with the images of multiple quadsters firmly in their brains, so I would also imagine being afraid of quads might not be a thing.

E

Yeah to most male skaters I talk to nowadays (in the US) they don't really see quads as this crazy thing. They just see them as a normal thing that men have to do to win at senior and potentially Junior. They see quads the way I see a triple-triple as a woman. It's very hard but it's also necessary. Like I don't know what a triple-triple combo feels like (probably feels like a triple-double but a bit less easy to control and faster but I digress), but I don't think it's some super exceptional thing that only the best of the best should attempt.

 

[Amei]

Nikolai Morozov might have some competition for weirdest board action by a coach:


https://www.reddit.com/r/FigureSkat.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

 

[Ella339]

Old Tut interview provides interesting insights:


(the replies to the tweet are interesting as well)

 

[Ella339]

This one I hesitated to post in the "Safety in this sport" thread, but since it calls out specific people by name, I thought this was the better place.


Hope it's okay to bring this kind of discussion here (and if not in this thread specifically, don't hesitate to point me in the right direction). I just thought this was really interesting.
(The whole account seems great.)

 

[Flying Feijoa]

This one I hesitated to post in the "Safety in this sport" thread, but since it calls out specific people by name, I thought this was the better place.


Hope it's okay to bring this kind of discussion here (and if not in this thread specifically, don't hesitate to point me in the right direction). I just thought this was really interesting.
(The whole account seems great.)

The references to anaerobic respiration and Newton's 2nd Law are basically just flexing, they aren't really necessary to the explanation. Basically the poster means 'the quadster girls don't bend their knees on landing because their muscles are too weak/tired' and 'They land with less force due to light body weight so they have less need for kneebend to absorb shock (but when they put on growth-related weight their lack of kneebend causes injury)'.

I support the central tenet that kneebend is an important and healthy habit, but I would just like to point out that fast rotation/depending on a small frame isn't exclusive to Tutberidze (e.g. Davydov and Panova's skaters have smaller fast-rotating jumps; similar are American skaters like Mia Kalin and Alysa Liu earlier in her career). Actually I think TT's approach may have changed a bit to include more strength training, as Valieva/Kostornaia/Trusova are fairly robust and seem more muscular than Medvedeva/Zagitova/Lipnitskaya were.

The generalised comment about hip injuries and ragging on Alysa/Nathan (implying their injuries were due to poor technique/stiff knees) was a bit dodgy. Not sure about Alysa, but Nathan's was a growth-related hip avulsion (basically contributed to by muscle tightness as the bones get longer). As his senior career with the associated multiple quads has been very successful with no major injury so far, we can assume he made a full recovery... She added the caveat with Kostner, but I think that really has more to do with Kostner being 1.7m tall and skating 15+ years in senior international competition.

 

[gliese]

This one I hesitated to post in the "Safety in this sport" thread, but since it calls out specific people by name, I thought this was the better place.


Hope it's okay to bring this kind of discussion here (and if not in this thread specifically, don't hesitate to point me in the right direction). I just thought this was really interesting.
(The whole account seems great.)

This is one of those posts where they take a problem in skating and act as if it's just Eteri. It's not just Eteri who relies on unhealthy weights to produce results. Many American coaches do it too. Rafael Arutyunyan does it, several of my old coaches even did it (was really frustrating because I'm kind of tall and theres just no way I'll be 90 pounds). It produces short term results and humans love instant gratification.

 

[readernick]

This is one of those posts where they take a problem in skating and act as if it's just Eteri. It's not just Eteri who relies on unhealthy weights to produce results. Many American coaches do it too. Rafael Arutyunyan does it, several of my old coaches even did it (was really frustrating because I'm kind of tall and theres just no way I'll be 90 pounds). It produces short term results and humans love instant gratification.

This is true and by focusing on one coach it makes it easier for everyone to ignore the systemic issues. The Russian fans just say people are mentioning it due to jealously and fans in North America and Asia can pretend the problems don't exist in their countries. It is an issue all through the skating world focusing on one coach does nothing to solve the problem.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

This is one of those posts where they take a problem in skating and act as if it's just Eteri. It's not just Eteri who relies on unhealthy weights to produce results. Many American coaches do it too. Rafael Arutyunyan does it, several of my old coaches even did it (was really frustrating because I'm kind of tall and theres just no way I'll be 90 pounds). It produces short term results and humans love instant gratification.

He does? I like the effect he's had on skaters with flagging careers, but that's disappointing to hear Especially as they seem to have good enough technique not to rely on low body weight.

 

[gliese]

He does? I like the effect he's had on skaters with flagging careers, but that's disappointing to hear Especially as they seem to have good enough technique not to rely on low body weight.

He does. If you listen to personal accounts, especially Adam and Ashley, he is very pushy about weight. Not to the point that all of his students have eating disorders (it doesn't seem to me to be any more than the general elite skating population). I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case with most high level coaches everywhere. They're right, it is way harder to jump if you have more fat on your body until it gets to the point where being too thin affects performance adversely. Weight will always be important in athletics unfortunately, so we just need to find the most balanced way to approach it and I think he's closer to finding that happy medium than someone like Eteri who relies almost solely on low bodyweight. Using strength and good technique while also being weight-aware tends to result in healthier students.

This is true and by focusing on one coach it makes it easier for everyone to ignore the systemic issues. The Russian fans just say people are mentioning it due to jealously and fans in North America and Asia can pretend the problems don't exist in their countries. It is an issue all through the skating world focusing on one coach does nothing to solve the problem.

Yeah and when we focus only on Eteri, the coaches who are also causing their students harm and would be willing to change if they knew that are able to think "well I'm not as bad as Eteri, so I'm probably fine" when that is not the case.

 

[florin]

But it's kind of funny, yes. Eteri has never been noticed that she prevented the skaters from developing, rather the opposite (I'm talking about the story of "hold" Alina). And about Mishin, we know for sure about this unsightly story with Alisa.

...Nevertheless, Lozko was ready for such loads and dreamed of working with Tutberidze. Eteri Georgievna allowed the girl to stay for the time of recruiting, but she never managed to fully become a student of the "Crystal". The St. Petersburg Figure Skating Federation refused to transfer the athlete, and all the efforts of Alisa's father were in vain. She had to return to the "Star Ice", but it was difficult to count on the normalization of the situation. Lozko believed that she could achieve more in Moscow, and Mishin harbored a grudge against his ward for her secret viewing at Tutberidze's.

"Alexey Nikolaevich has heard rumors that I want to go to Tutberidze again. And he, let's say, recommended all the coaches of the "Star Ice" not to take me. I learned about this from Alina Yuryevna Pisarenko, who, at her own risk, still undertook to train me. He probably decided that if I tried to go to Tutberidze once without telling anyone, I could do it again, so he believed the rumors. He was acting in his own interests. Why keep a student who will probably leave you soon and go to another coach" - Lozko said

But no, it turns out to be the opposite! It turns out there is Donna Eteri who holds your future post-sports career in her hands and therefore everyone obeys her, and there is a noble wise Yoda-Mishin

 

[Alex65]

I bet Tutberidze doesn't care for PR. First of all, Russians are blunt. American coaches are PR because they belong to a different culture. And second, let's be realistic. The skating world is a tough world and she is the absolute queen of it. She takes little children and teaches them how to jump quads. She is the ultimate iron lady and her pupils, no matter their age, are tough too. Do you think she worries about sounding nice and humble to skating fans who comment on social media? Can you imagine going to the queen of England and suggesting her to be more PR because people complain on twitter? I'm not saying Tutberidze or her people should go around saying nasty things about these girls, I'm just being realistic about elite coaches, think of Tarasova, who are extremely good at their job and are also quite arrogant. they work like dogs to make their pupils successful, they scold them on a daily basis and then go back to work. This is what these girls signed for. they want to win. they are fierce, desperately committed to their training. fans shouldn't blow any comment from Tut team out of proportion.

ha-ha! Tutberidze doesn't care about PR ?? LOL! PR is what made her. Remember OG 18 and everything that happened after. She became a media star. Now the main TV channel of Russia advertises for her. And she has a lot of acquaintances with influential people of the country at a high level.
And yes. You're right. This is a different culture. The American coach needs to be flexible in dealing with the public. In Russia, you can simply don’t give a damn about it if big money and state propaganda work for you.

 

[Lzbee]

I bet Tutberidze doesn't care for PR. First of all, Russians are blunt. American coaches are PR because they belong to a different culture. And second, let's be realistic. The skating world is a tough world and she is the absolute queen of it. She takes little children and teaches them how to jump quads. She is the ultimate iron lady and her pupils, no matter their age, are tough too. Do you think she worries about sounding nice and humble to skating fans who comment on social media? Can you imagine going to the queen of England and suggesting her to be more PR because people complain on twitter? I'm not saying Tutberidze or her people should go around saying nasty things about these girls, I'm just being realistic about elite coaches, think of Tarasova, who are extremely good at their job and are also quite arrogant. they work like dogs to make their pupils successful, they scold them on a daily basis and then go back to work. This is what these girls signed for. they want to win. they are fierce, desperately committed to their training. fans shouldn't blow any comment from Tut team out of proportion.

Eteri definitely cares about PR. Especially in a sport like figure skating where, whether intentional or not, your reputation plays a part in your score. And when tenths of a point make the difference between a podium finish or not, it matters a lot.

Also, the Queen of Great Britain is all about PR. The British people have only tolerated the royal family for so long because she's the best we've had at it.

 

[eterialskating]

I see the vultures are already feasting on the newest made up Eteri scandal. Of course they were awfully quiet for a long time but I never expected them to be so industrious in their latest faux outrage. I did not even think much of it when Daria withdraw but never underestimate how diligent Eteri haters toil.

 

[lurkerghost1]

I fall somewhere in between. I don't think Eteri is responsible for Usacheva's injury. It was clearly a fluke injury on a bad takeoff. And as other posters have said every skater is injured at some point.

But the way she lets Zhelezhnykov talk about this injury and how it is on Daria for overtraining herself does make me wonder about the background leading up to NHK. Daria's not stupid, I'm sure she saw how 1) everyone else is landing 3A/quads besides her (even Sinitsyna showed 4T) and 2) Team Tut conditioned Kostornaia's return on restoring 3A.

So I feel very uncomfortable with him criticizing Daria here when every minute she spends in Sambo-70 she is reminded how she is "behind" and priority B or lower for the coaches. And it does make me wonder if Team Tut is really looking out for these girls especially the ones in the B-team.

On other note it is possible that this one could very likely end Usacheva's career. If she isn't ready to skate in a year she will not get a Season's Best for 22-23 and that will be it for her. Or even if she does come back but not at the 215+ level it will still be the nail in the coffin as she will be surpassed by the Junior Super Six

 

[Amei]

I fall somewhere in between. I don't think Eteri is responsible for Usacheva's injury. It was clearly a fluke injury on a bad takeoff. And as other posters have said every skater is injured at some point.

But the way she lets Zhelezhnykov talk about this injury and how it is on Daria for overtraining herself does make me wonder about the background leading up to NHK. Daria's not stupid, I'm sure she saw how 1) everyone else is landing 3A/quads besides her (even Sinitsyna showed 4T) and 2) Team Tut conditioned Kostornaia's return on restoring 3A.

So I feel very uncomfortable with him criticizing Daria here when every minute she spends in Sambo-70 she is reminded how she is "behind" and priority B or lower for the coaches. And it does make me wonder if Team Tut is really looking out for these girls especially the ones in the B-team.

On other note it is possible that this one could very likely end Usacheva's career. If she isn't ready to skate in a year she will not get a Season's Best for 22-23 and that will be it for her. Or even if she does come back but not at the 215+ level it will still be the nail in the coffin as she will be surpassed by the Junior Super Six

When has someone at Sambo said that Usacheva is "priority B or lower for the coaches" ?

 

[vorravorra]

But it's kind of funny, yes. Eteri has never been noticed that she prevented the skaters from developing, rather the opposite (I'm talking about the story of "hold" Alina). And about Mishin, we know for sure about this unsightly story with Alisa.

...Nevertheless, Lozko was ready for such loads and dreamed of working with Tutberidze. Eteri Georgievna allowed the girl to stay for the time of recruiting, but she never managed to fully become a student of the "Crystal". The St. Petersburg Figure Skating Federation refused to transfer the athlete, and all the efforts of Alisa's father were in vain. She had to return to the "Star Ice", but it was difficult to count on the normalization of the situation. Lozko believed that she could achieve more in Moscow, and Mishin harbored a grudge against his ward for her secret viewing at Tutberidze's.

"Alexey Nikolaevich has heard rumors that I want to go to Tutberidze again. And he, let's say, recommended all the coaches of the "Star Ice" not to take me. I learned about this from Alina Yuryevna Pisarenko, who, at her own risk, still undertook to train me. He probably decided that if I tried to go to Tutberidze once without telling anyone, I could do it again, so he believed the rumors. He was acting in his own interests. Why keep a student who will probably leave you soon and go to another coach" - Lozko said

But no, it turns out to be the opposite! It turns out there is Donna Eteri who holds your future post-sports career in her hands and therefore everyone obeys her, and there is a noble wise Yoda-Mishin

Mishin isn't an angel. Nobody crosses Moskvina either, that's how you get to be and survive as a top coach in the snake pit that is Russian figure skating. And yet they are generally liked. Why? Because they are smart about how they come across. Eteri on the other hand seems to want the world to see her for the narcissist she is, or is just really bad at hiding it.

 

[Amei]

Mishin isn't an angel. Nobody crosses Moskvina either, that's how you get to be and survive as a top coach in the snake pit that is Russian figure skating. And yet that are generally liked. Why? Because they are smart about how they come across. Eteri on the other hand seems to want the world to see her for the narcissist she is, or is just really bad at hiding it.

I don't think she wants to be seen as a narcissist, and given that several of her students, including ones that she or her staff spoke negatively of in the press, have returned to her as students or coaches tells me she's not as evil as some like to believe her to be

 

[lopsilceci]

Mishin isn't an angel. Nobody crosses Moskvina either, that's how you get to be and survive as a top coach in the snake pit that is Russian figure skating. And yet that are generally liked. Why? Because they are smart about how they come across. Eteri on the other hand seems to want the world to see her for the narcissist she is, or is just really bad at hiding it.

They are no different in how they come across; they come from the same culture and are much older... They probably have even more controversial ideas, only that no one is paying much attention to their camps.
The focus on Eteri is because:
a) ladies is currently the most popular discipline of all and
b) she has been at the center of the revolution of ladies skating and she has been coaching the top ladies in the world for years.
Obviously, there's going to be more attention (both positive and negative) directed at her than Mishin or Moskvina, whose students are not nearly as many and as popular as Eteri's.
Also, whatever Daniil or Zelezniakov says in public should be taken as just their own opinion, not the absolute gospel at Sambo-70.