Will we see any particular jump combo or jump sequence at oly? I think not! All because of this NJS. The ladies will do 3Z/2T and men 3F/3T or max 3A/3T. Why would a skater risk doing a difficult 3Z/3L, when she/he can take the same points doing the same jumps as solo jumps with easier combos. Nobody will repeat the difficult sequence that Plush did (3A/half loop/3F), beacause of the stupid 20%minus. Will someone do a one foot axel into triple salchow? Or a split jump into triple toe? I think not. I was still surprised that Caro Kostner did a 2A/half loop/3S sequence. This NJS is killing originality. I hope that this year ISU will change some rules regarding jumps. I still don't understand why they excluded the walley, the toeless lutz and inside axel from CoP.:scowl:
cool combos at oly with NJS
- Thread starter gio
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
At the shore, everyone looks the same.
Joe
Joe
gio said:
What does this mean? We won't see any specific jump combos, only generic ones?
I don't know. I expect we will see quad combos, and 3lutz-3toe, in the men's short program, and Miki Ando may continue to attempt 3lutz-3loop in her short. There are a few other ladies who will likely attempt triple-triples in the short as well.
Since there are fewer jump elements in the SP, i.e., only one solo jump besides the axel, there's more incentive to include the harder combinations IF the skater is likely to land them cleanly or at least to get credit for rotating both jumps as planned. In the long program the strategies for maximizing points are somewhat different.
I agree that the discounting of sequences is stupid. Of course, I doubt we'd see that sequence anyway, or only from Plyushenko, since it's difficult enough that no one else was doing it in the old system either.
Probably not. Again, it was rare in the old system as well. And the one-foot axel uses up a combination without being worth even as much as a double toe, so the current system discourages it. I can think of ways to redefine the scoring of combos and sequences to encourage that sort of thing instead, but will the powers that be ever come up with such changes? Too late for these Olympics anyway.
Actually, that's not discouraged at all. The split jump counts as a transition and doesn't use up one of the allowed combinations, so there's no downside to doing it and possible reward in the transitions mark, or even in the GOE for the triple toe because of the special approach.
Me too.
It's actually better that they didn't assign point values to these jumps. If they did, and a skater did one of them, it would fill up a jump slot that could otherwise have been used for a triple. As is, these jumps just count as transitions, so they don't earn points commensurate with their difficulty but they do enhance the transitions and perhaps choreography component(s), they can add to the GOEs of the triples if used as entrances into triples, and doing them doesn't prevent the skater from also doing a full complement of high-value jumps.
To encourage them more specifically, they could assign point values to these jumps and allow another "miscellaneous" element box they could fill instead of a jump box. A change I'd like to see in the future. (And I can think of other miscellaneous elements besides jumps that could also earn points, e.g., spread eagles.)
gkelly said:
I mean an original combo or sequence. Something that was rarely done (Trenary one foot axel/3sal or Plushenko sequence with 3flip)
Yes, you're right. Hope that Miki will continue to do this difficult combo at SP. At least if she skate clean she could earn 20 points of just jumps.
Too late for Olympics, but for next season they can change something as they did last year for spins and steps. At least they can incourage doing some original sequences. As for the difficult entries to the jumps, some skaters like Sokolova didn't understand that if they want their GOE graded +3 their jumps have to be entered in difficult ways. Still I can't understand her high marks for transitions. I liked EleneG entrance to triple Lutz.
The miscellaneous element box is a good idea. A suggestion for ISU!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I still think figure skating is limited in its elements. Any new variations on combo jumps or spins have already been done. Another air rotation has it's roots in the generic jump.
I prefer to look for choreographic variation. The use of basics in an original way.
Joe
I prefer to look for choreographic variation. The use of basics in an original way.
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2005
Aside from the men, who will likely risk "difficult" or "atypical" jump combinations?
Among the ladies, the first names that come to mind are Irina, kimmie, Shizuka, Miki, and Carolina. Irina is more consistent with the 3sal/3loop but she has always landed the 3lutz/3loop in practice (just before the LP) according to innumerable posts. Irina has also played around with the 3toe/3toe and 3sal/3loop/3toe, but the last time she supposedly landed this 3-jump combo was fall 2004.
The Japanese ladies are, technically speaking and also in terms of overall medal chances, the DEEPEST women's team, but with this risk comes the technical call of underrotated jumps, so frequent with Shizuka (more so than Miki) in international competition. Only Mao Asada seems to have avoided this technical call (even her SO obviously quarter-turn cheated 3 axel have all been fully ratified this season; her underrotated 2 loop in her 3loop/2r/2r combo are another story, almost like Tara Lipinski's technique, fast rotation, minimum ice coverage, quarter-turn cheated on the 2loop).
Additionally, Miki has marked her words that she's going for the quad salchow as her first jump in her LP, although I highly doubt she'll make the last minute decision. Shizuka has also promised a 3sal/3toe/3loop which she's landed in 2 separate video footages, PROBABLY cheated.
Carolina has her 3 flip/3toe, and has attempted the easier 3toe/3toe in Skate Canada SP
Many skaters choose to do the 2 axel sequence with 3 sal [Joannie Rochette, Caro] or 2axel/seq/3toe [Yoshi and Yukari, but both won't be going to Torino, either one could have easily ranked higher than Miki at Torino], and 3toe/seq/3sal [Sasha].
And don't forget Kimmie Meissner's 2 triple/triples: lutz/toe and flip/toe, plus a very difficult last minute 2axel/2toe/2loop.
We just have to wait for MK's promised 3/3, and it most likely will be the 3toe/3toe.
DIDN'T SASHA USE TO DO THE 3LOOP/HALF LOOP/3SAL SEQ.??
Among the ladies, the first names that come to mind are Irina, kimmie, Shizuka, Miki, and Carolina. Irina is more consistent with the 3sal/3loop but she has always landed the 3lutz/3loop in practice (just before the LP) according to innumerable posts. Irina has also played around with the 3toe/3toe and 3sal/3loop/3toe, but the last time she supposedly landed this 3-jump combo was fall 2004.
The Japanese ladies are, technically speaking and also in terms of overall medal chances, the DEEPEST women's team, but with this risk comes the technical call of underrotated jumps, so frequent with Shizuka (more so than Miki) in international competition. Only Mao Asada seems to have avoided this technical call (even her SO obviously quarter-turn cheated 3 axel have all been fully ratified this season; her underrotated 2 loop in her 3loop/2r/2r combo are another story, almost like Tara Lipinski's technique, fast rotation, minimum ice coverage, quarter-turn cheated on the 2loop).
Additionally, Miki has marked her words that she's going for the quad salchow as her first jump in her LP, although I highly doubt she'll make the last minute decision. Shizuka has also promised a 3sal/3toe/3loop which she's landed in 2 separate video footages, PROBABLY cheated.
Carolina has her 3 flip/3toe, and has attempted the easier 3toe/3toe in Skate Canada SP
Many skaters choose to do the 2 axel sequence with 3 sal [Joannie Rochette, Caro] or 2axel/seq/3toe [Yoshi and Yukari, but both won't be going to Torino, either one could have easily ranked higher than Miki at Torino], and 3toe/seq/3sal [Sasha].
And don't forget Kimmie Meissner's 2 triple/triples: lutz/toe and flip/toe, plus a very difficult last minute 2axel/2toe/2loop.
We just have to wait for MK's promised 3/3, and it most likely will be the 3toe/3toe.
DIDN'T SASHA USE TO DO THE 3LOOP/HALF LOOP/3SAL SEQ.??
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, the last three times out she did 3T/3S seq. (Worlds), 2A/3S seq. (Eric Bompard), and 3T/3S seq. (U.S. Nationals). Her GOEs on these elements were -1.71, -1.00 and -2.43. She could get an extra point by substituting the 3Lo, but besides that she is giving up points by doing two 3Sals and only one 3Lz overall.VINLUVSKWAN said:
Without a triple/triple combo, Sasha must do a sequence to work in seven triples. If she did, say, 3T/2Lo combo (5.5 points) instead of 3T/3S seq (7.2 points, with the .8 factoring) she would still lose points, even after taking a hit on GOE.
Sasha will need seven triples in Torino. Suppose Irina skates conservatively (which is the only way she can possibly lose), leaves out the triple-triple, and delivers a clean 6 triple program. Her PCSs are straight 9.0s for a total of 72.0.
Sasha matches Irina on the tech scores and gets 8.5s in PCS, for a total of 68.0. Sasha needs four more points. An extra Salchow thrown in on the tail end of a sequence in the second half of the program gives her ... 4.0 points. It's a tie!!!!!
MM
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gio said:
Gio i totally share your frustration - i think listing the jumps and missing a while bunch of them has been a huge flaw of this system...though i must say i don't think anyone in recent times has donea toe-less lutz.
I used to love it when skaters did great big whalley's or inside axels as highlight moves at the end of their programs...maybe they still coudl so long as they've used up all their 7 or eight jumping passes?
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gkelly said:
Really? I thought if you did an inside axel then it took up a jumping spot? In fact i thought if you left the ice and did a full turn you lost a jumping pass.
If not then how unfair is it that if you slip off the take of edge of a jump - it takes up a jumping pass you get 0 for it (plus the -1 deduction for a fall). Who was the guy who slipped off the FO Axel take off edge? I think this happened to Eman in the GP and he lost a jumping pass (depite not jumping) and got 0...just because the caller had a crib sheet...another idiotic CoP anomaly.
Ant
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/15_Singles_Instruction_for_Specialists_2005_07_11.pdf
This is the best document I can find to establish that walleys etc. count as transitions, not jump elements. It's a US document, but the fact that they spell "walley" as "valley" suggests that it was adapted from something written by someone of another nationality. Anyway, it's a new clarification for this year.
Only jumps that are listed in the scale of values fill jump boxes. So do attempts at such jumps. All jumps in the scale of values have at least one revolution. Popped attempts sometimes do not. Transition jumps (waltz jump, half flip, etc.) sometimes do not. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when the takeoff is the same.
Walleys, inside axels, and toeless lutzes have takeoffs that are not the same as any jump in the scale of values, so there's not much room for confusion if the takeoff was correct.
A toeless flutz would be a salchow.
This is the best document I can find to establish that walleys etc. count as transitions, not jump elements. It's a US document, but the fact that they spell "walley" as "valley" suggests that it was adapted from something written by someone of another nationality. Anyway, it's a new clarification for this year.
Only jumps that are listed in the scale of values fill jump boxes. So do attempts at such jumps. All jumps in the scale of values have at least one revolution. Popped attempts sometimes do not. Transition jumps (waltz jump, half flip, etc.) sometimes do not. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when the takeoff is the same.
Walleys, inside axels, and toeless lutzes have takeoffs that are not the same as any jump in the scale of values, so there's not much room for confusion if the takeoff was correct.
A toeless flutz would be a salchow.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gkelly said:http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/15_Singles_Instruction_for_Specialists_2005_07_11.pdf
This is the best document I can find to establish that walleys etc. count as transitions, not jump elements. It's a US document, but the fact that they spell "walley" as "valley" suggests that it was adapted from something written by someone of another nationality. Anyway, it's a new clarification for this year.
Only jumps that are listed in the scale of values fill jump boxes. So do attempts at such jumps. All jumps in the scale of values have at least one revolution. Popped attempts sometimes do not. Transition jumps (waltz jump, half flip, etc.) sometimes do not. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when the takeoff is the same.
Walleys, inside axels, and toeless lutzes have takeoffs that are not the same as any jump in the scale of values, so there's not much room for confusion if the takeoff was correct.
A toeless flutz would be a salchow.
Oh well that makes me feel a little bit better - i thought i had read somewhere that inside axels and one foot axels are difficult variations of the single axel and would eb marked as single axels.
about the toe less flutz...i say bring it on...there are some skaters (soldatova i think is one examples) who have a straight set up to their salchows who go from LBO edge to LBI edge and then jump...triple toe less flutz?!! I think Soldatova also did it from a great LBO spiral.Ant
MK won't be able to do the 3toe/3toe combo.
Because she plans to repeat her Lutz and Flip.
Rulebook says that u can oly repeat 2 triple jumps. Any repeat beyond 2 won't get counted.
So her 3/3 might be 3F/3toe, 3sal/toe. The 3sal/3t is very doable for her.
She also says she plans only 6 triples. This makes sense if she does indeed leave out the 3loop.
Without the 3loop, she can't do 7triples because of the rule above.
I’m not too concerned about variety in jump combos.
I’m more concerned about variety in the overall feel of a program.
Because she plans to repeat her Lutz and Flip.
Rulebook says that u can oly repeat 2 triple jumps. Any repeat beyond 2 won't get counted.
So her 3/3 might be 3F/3toe, 3sal/toe. The 3sal/3t is very doable for her.
She also says she plans only 6 triples. This makes sense if she does indeed leave out the 3loop.
Without the 3loop, she can't do 7triples because of the rule above.
I’m not too concerned about variety in jump combos.
I’m more concerned about variety in the overall feel of a program.
antmanb said:
That would be true for the one-foot axel, because the takeoff is the same as a regular axel.
Therefore it's not worth doing as a transition jump.
It would be worth doing as an entry into triple salchow (or flip) IF the rules were changed to give a bonus for the second or third jump in a combination.
It would also fulfill the requirement for "an axel-type jump." By itself, of course, it's worth less than a double axel but it might fit into a strategy if a skater were better at one-foot axels than at double axels, or if a lady wanted to do seven triples without any triple-triple combos or any sequences, repeating the triple salchow in combo after one-foot axel.
Inside axel is a completely different jump, not in the scale of values and therefore available to use as a transition.
Yes, she did.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gkelly said:
Cool - thanks for the clarification.
I wonder what would happen then if a skater has a triple axel down on their crib sheet...they step forward into the jump, hit a rut on the ice or freak out in some way and pop up into a high floaty waltz jump, then a second later set up the axel again and do i, what the caller would do.
My gut reaction is the caller would think that its a botched attempt as what appears in the list as a say a triple axel, but the skater perfectly within the rules does a transition element waltz jump and then does teh triple axel.
I suspect they'd be trouble, just like in the slipping off a take off edge issue.
Ant
What are the requirements for a +3 GOE? A good technique, a difficult entry, strange positions (tano jumps, delayed)?
If you do a difficult combo without mistakes, some judges can give you a +2 or +3 just for doing that?
That Soldatova triple salchow how it would be counted under NJS.
If you do a difficult combo without mistakes, some judges can give you a +2 or +3 just for doing that?
That Soldatova triple salchow how it would be counted under NJS.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
As far as I know a one foot axel comes in two variations:
FO entry; 1-1/2 air turns; BI landing allowing for a salchow. I think it would be interesting to see if one could land on a BO edge. It would have to be an Air Rock Over.
FI entry; 1-1/2 air turns; BO landing allowing for a all those jumps which take off from a BO edge.
I don't think making those air turns, triples, would be all that difficult and it would hardly be footwork.
I have no objections to Wallys being bonafide jumps either. It is the one jump that has the most rythym. I like rythym.
Joe
FO entry; 1-1/2 air turns; BI landing allowing for a salchow. I think it would be interesting to see if one could land on a BO edge. It would have to be an Air Rock Over.
FI entry; 1-1/2 air turns; BO landing allowing for a all those jumps which take off from a BO edge.
I don't think making those air turns, triples, would be all that difficult and it would hardly be footwork.
I have no objections to Wallys being bonafide jumps either. It is the one jump that has the most rythym. I like rythym.
Joe
gio said:
For solo jumps:
base value: All jump phases completed satisfactorily; i.e., average length preparation phase; adequate height and distance; organized/vertical air position, completed revolution; clean landing; sufficient flow in and out
+1: Good technique on at least three phases of the jump described in base value or
- a jump of base value with varied position in the air or delay in rotation
+2: Good or very good technique and execution in all phases of the jump
+3: Superior in all jump phases (e.g., unexpected or difficult entry phase, great height/distance, strong flow in and out and superior extension on landing)
For combinations,
base value: All jumps completed as noted in jumps (base value) with rhythmic timing between jumps
+1: Good technique in the majority of all jumps or very good in one jump and other jump(s) completed at base value with no loss of flow between jumps
+2: Superior in one jump and good in other or very good in all jump phases of all of the jumps
+3: Superior quality technique and execution in all phases of all of the jumps
A jump that is just adequately completed but has a varied air position or delayed rotation could get +1, so it would seem that those variations could also make an otherwise +1 jump into +2, or +2 into +3, although that is not explicitly stated. A difficult or surprise entry would definitely count toward superiority in the preparation phase.
No, the difficulty doesn't directly affect the GOE. I'm sure judges do take into account that, e.g., the amount of flow out of a triple loop at the end of a combination is not the same that would be expected from a solo triple loop. But if the execution of a difficult element is just adequate for that element (without mistakes but nothing particularly good about the quality), then the GOE should just be the base value.
Depends on the quality of the execution, but the difficult entry should get at least into the "good" range for the preparation phase.
Joesitz said:
This is generally known as a one-foot axel.
Why don't you try it with a waltz jump, see how that works before asking anyone to try it with more revolutions.
This is usually called an "inside axel." It's a different jump.
I've never seen the former attempted as a double. In theory, a double one-foot axel into triple salchow sounds like a cool combination. Checking and controlling the landing after 2 1/2 revolutions on an inside edge would be the tricky part.
I've seen two examples of double inside axel, one from about 1970 and one from 1993. I've seen one example of a double walley from the latter year, different skater.
Obviously, it is not at all easy to perform these jumps as doubles, and apparently so difficult to do them as triples that no one has ever tried.
If they were added to the scale of values with very high values (e.g., double inside axel or double walley comparable to triple loop, and triples of those jumps comparable to quad salchow or loop), then skaters would have an incentive to try to learn them. I expect that few would succeed.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gio said:
I can't remember for sure but i think the +GOE criteria are pretty fuzzy - along the lines of "exceptional" in all phases of the jump so i would have thought a difficult entrance with a god clean take off edge, bigger than average jump (or a reguklar sized jump with a tano position) with the same speed coming out of the jump and going into it.
The Soldatova trilpe sal i think would get +GOE for the entrance...depending on the rest of the jump, IIRC she had nice high springy jumps but at europeans had a scratchy landing on it, if it had been landed well then probably a +! or +2?? Totally guessing though.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
I think it helps to state the foot you'd jump off for a Anti-Clockwise jumper to get the picture. The first jump you noted is a one foot Axel, that is a LFO take off edge with a LBI edge landing.
The second jump is called an inside Axel - it takes off from a RFI edge and lands on the RBO edge.
As for multiple revolutions, i think if they were possible we'd have seen them by now. For the one foot axel - checking the rotation for a LBI edge is unbelievably difficult, more so than RBO edge because not only are you having to fight the rotation which continues going round anti-clockwise but the weight of the free side of your body is also pulling you in and around. To do multi rotational jumps the skater rotates around their right side in the backspin position so to land a multi revolution jump on the LBI edge the skater would have to not only check out of the jump but shift their weight over to the left side.
I think the most difficult jump that's been done is a double half-loop.
The skaters at my rink who have all their doubles can't land any of them on the other foot.
Ant
Last edited:
Similar threads
