CoP and Music

[Mathman]

Sort of the point - what you just said is what many fans feel they are missing already.

Do the new spins effectively highlight the music - or just prove that a skater can change edges? I wish we could ask Stephane to comment on that. :yes:

I do not see how getting rid of the music in the short program will address that problem.

At present, the spins do not highlight the music, so the solution is to get rid of the music? That's like cutting off your head because you have a toothache.

 

[i love to skate]

Sort of the point - what you just said is what many fans feel they are missing already.
Do the new spins effectively highlight the music - or just prove that a skater can change edges? I wish we could ask Stephane to comment on that. :yes:

How did spins highlight the music before the COP? Going a bit off topic - I don't mean this to sound rude, and I'm sorry if it does come out that way but I'm curious about your answer. What exactly do you like about skating? There doesn't seem to be much enjoyment that you get from the performances.

Do you not think that V/M freedance at 2008 Worlds or D/W free dance from 2009 Worlds were quite simply breathtaking? Did Joannie's performance at Japan Open 2009 not stir any emotions? Yu-Na's powerful short from 2009? Chan's joyful skate at 2008 Nationals? D/D romantic long at Worlds in 2008? S/Z long at 2009 Worlds? If the beauty in these performances is not visible I don't know what people are seeing. Anyways, you don't have to answer, like I said, just curious

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Where would Toller Cranston fit in today's skating world? Would he be too exotic for the current system? Maybe it is not really a fair to use Toller, but people loved his skating even when he was falling down.

Will we see another Toller anytime soon? Maybe a female version of Toller? Or is the system too restrictive for such creativity. It is no secret how much Lambiel feels boxed in by CoP and he is great but quite tame compared to Toller. Maybe most are....

Didn't Cranston (and Curry) feel too boxed in by 6.0? Someone mentioned that in the Brezina thread.

My one note is that we're still talking about skaters who, for the most part, skated competitively under the 6.0 system. So they "created themselves" (for lack of a better word) for one system than had to adjust (I mean, a podium comprising of Lambiel, Plushenko, Joubert or Takahashi would surprise no one, and these are three of the top four from the last 6.0 year, with Takahashi just outside the top ten). As more and more skaters come up through COP from a young age and it becomes more natural to them, I think you're gonna see more skaters performing how you want them to perform, janetfan (ie, with the music). It's worth mentioning that the people praised for doing so (Kim, Asada, Chan, Kozuka, Virtue/Moir, Davis/White) started COP in juniors. Of course, it's also entirely possible that this means we get a narrower "type" of skating, which no one wants.

I also question giving the skater too much credit for projection when it comes to music choice, but that's just my bias.

 

[janetfan]

How did spins highlight the music before the COP? Going a bit off topic - I don't mean this to sound rude, and I'm sorry if it does come out that way but I'm curious about your answer. What exactly do you like about skating? There doesn't seem to be much enjoyment that you get from the performances.

Do you not think that V/M freedance at 2008 Worlds or D/W free dance from 2009 Worlds were quite simply breathtaking? Did Joannie's performance at Japan Open 2009 not stir any emotions? Yu-Na's powerful short from 2009? Chan's joyful skate at 2008 Nationals? D/D romantic long at Worlds in 2008? S/Z long at 2009 Worlds? If the beauty in these performances is not visible I don't know what people are seeing. Anyways, you don't have to answer, like I said, just curious

If you don't remember and/or recognize how spins have changed maybe someone else here will answer that for you. Actually on the previous post here mathman commented on that subject and sort of agreed with me that the coe spins do not highlight the music. I would add that at times they detract from the music. You might be a better skater than me but I am a musician so I think I have a good understanding of the relationship to music and dance as well as skating.

I watched both of Shizuka's '06 Olympic programs last night and though they were not "perfect" I loved her performances. I noticed how much more I liked her spirals and how elegant and free flowing her skating was. I have not seen any skating this season I liked as much as Shiz although it is possible there has been better skating. But imo not very much. Nothing from Miki, Mao or Joannie has approached what I felt from Shiz at Torino.

I really don't remember the Japan Open so well without seeing it again. I remeber Joannie and Laura both had good skates and Mao not so good at all.

Typically I love Tessa and Scott and Davis/White. I thought the Dance at '09 Worlds was the same old farce and thought the winners did not even deserve to get a medal unless they were awarding pewter. I can deal with it but it does nothing to boost my confidence in CoP scoring and judging. So why should I see something and act like it doesn't matter to me. If you think about it why would a person who doesn't care about skating bother to complain about aspects of it?

I thought Jeremy, with the most original choreo and best musicality of this season won the SP last week at NHK. It made me grumpy that the judges didn't know what they were seeing. I bet Jeremy feels worse though since he was the one who skated and was underscored.

I am a Yuna fan but like "Roxanne" more than Danse Macabre (and so do many other Yuna fans).

You think skating is fine, that it is prosperous and making money. We have to agree to disagree about that point. If I discuss ideas that are contrary to your opinions I don't see how that has to mean I don't care about skating. It could mean that we have different tastes and experiences and expectations.

You seem to think we are seeing wonderful skating and beautiful programs from the Ladies this season. That is just the exact opposite of what I am seeing.
Come to think of it, and with all due respect, how can you possibly think such a thing? Even Joannie, to be kind, was subpar at COC. Miki has yet to skate a good program this season. Mao has practically disintegrated and Caro has been having troubles too.

Laura did not look good at NHK and Kiira's Silver medal speaks for itself. What did she do to win a silver GP medal? Two triples?

I think that Yuna, Akiko and Alena are the only three Ladies who have skated up to their talent level so far this season. You just happen to disagree and think the skating is trending upward and we are seeing good performances and interesting programs. I do not.

I guess it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.

 

[gkelly]

Pick a year, any year, 1991 to 2002.

Let's look at some fall competitions. How many great performances from the ladies will we see?

You choose the year, and I'll do my best to research the jump content for you, especially if the performances aren't on Youtube.

 

[i love to skate]

If you don't remember and/or recognize how spins have changed maybe someone else here will answer that for you. Actually on the previous post here mathman commented on that subject and sort of agreed with me that the coe spins do not highlight the music. I would add that at times they detract from the music. You might be a better skater than me but I am a musician so I think I have a good understanding of the relationship to music and dance as well as skating.

I watched both of Shizuka's '06 Olympic programs last night and though they were not "perfect" I loved her performances. I noticed how much more I liked her spirals and how elegant and free flowing her skating was. I have not seen any skating this season I liked as much as Shiz although it is possible there has been better skating. But imo not very much. Nothing from Miki, Mao or Joannie has approached what I felt from Shiz at Torino.

I really don't remember the Japan Open so well without seeing it again. I remeber Joannie and Laura both had good skates and Mao not so good at all.

Typically I love Tessa and Scott and Davis/White. I thought the Dance at '09 Worlds was the same old farce and thought the winners did not even deserve to get a medal unless they were awarding pewter. I can deal with it but it does nothing to boost my confidence in CoP scoring and judging. So why should I see something and act like it doesn't matter to me. If you think about it why would a person who doesn't care about skating bother to complain about aspects of it?

I thought Jeremy, with the most original choreo and best musicality of this season won the SP last week at NHK. It made me grumpy that the judges didn't know what they were seeing. I bet Jeremy feels worse though since he was the one who skated and was underscored.

I am a Yuna fan but like "Roxanne" more than Danse Macabre (and so do many other Yuna fans).

You think skating is fine, that it is prosperous and making money. We have to agree to disagree about that point. If I discuss ideas that are contrary to your opinions I don't see how that has to mean I don't care about skating. It could mean that we have different tastes and experiences and expectations.

You seem to think we are seeing wonderful skating and beautiful programs from the Ladies this season. That is just the exact opposite of what I am seeing.
Come to think of it, and with all due respect, how can you possibly think such a thing? Even Joannie, to be kind, was subpar at COC. Miki has yet to skate a good program this season. Mao has practically disintegrated and Caro has been having troubles too.

Laura did not look good at NHK and Kiira's Silver medal speaks for itself. What did she do to win a silver GP medal? Two triples?

I think that Yuna, Akiko and Alena are the only three Ladies who have skated up to their talent level so far this season. You just happen to disagree and think the skating is trending upward and we are seeing good performances and interesting programs. I do not.

I guess it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.

Thanks for your reply

I never said that the Ladies were skating great this seson - far from it. The only two ladies examples I used were Yu Na from last year and Joannie at the Japan Open - which was the best performance she has ever given. I haven't watched any of the women's competitions at the Grand Prixs at all this year. It is the least interesting discipline and the one I care least about so most of the ladies are pretty irrelevant to me.

The judges do know what they are seeing - these are highly qualified people who have put in years and years of time in cold arenas. Remember, if it weren't for them we wouldn't be able to enjoy this great sport :thumbsup:

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Pick a year, any year, 1991 to 2002.

Let's look at some fall competitions. How many great performances from the ladies will we see?

You choose the year, and I'll do my best to research the jump content for you, especially if the performances aren't on Youtube.

If this is up for anyone, I'd like to nominate the fall of 1994 (the 94/95 season with Lu Chen winning worlds). I'm quite curious.

 

[gkelly]

Was the ladies' field stronger or more consistent 15 years ago?

Carried over from the Music and CoP thread, where I offered to research ladies' jump content and overall performance level from fall competitions any year between 1991 and 2002

If this is up for anyone, I'd like to nominate the fall of 1994 (the 94/95 season with Lu Chen winning worlds). I'm quite curious.

Ooh, good one.

It was a post-Olympic year, so there were more up-and-comers than veterans on the scene. Might make a better comparison with fall 2010.

That was the first year that the jump out of steps in the ladies' short program was allowed to be triple. I.e., the first year that ladies were allowed to do two triples in the SP instead of just one.


* * * * *

At Skate America that year, every single lady except Irina Slutskaya fell on one or the other of her triples. ABC decided to cover the SP by broadcasting a montage of all the falls, and then Slutskaya's winning clean SP.

Here's the gold-medal freeskate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGkI4mbbDxo
Not bad. Off balance on the double axel, cheat on the back end of the triple-triple combo (ambitious at the time; wouldn't be worth the effort in IJS), her usual pervasive weaknesses, but basically a clean skate.

Most of the other freeskates aren't available on Youtube. I happened to attend that event and took notes in the program, which I kept, but my notes on the ladies' long program aren't very complete.

In alphabetical order, with results and IJS jump codes:

Nicole Bobek (6): 3F hand down, 3Lz turn/fall out, 2A clean 3T fall; 1A+3S bad landing (one-foot axel right up into the salchow), 2A hand and foot down, split jump into 2T

Surya Bonaly (1): well, you can see for yourself in the link above. I did note the cheat on the 3-3 combo.

Angela Derochie (8): I just wrote "marks seem high -- low energy and only 1 clean triple"

Ludmila Ivanova (5): no notes

Marina Kielmann (4): 3T+3T, 3Lo fall, 3Lz hand down, squat turnout; 2A, 3S, 3F two-foot, forward; 3Lo+2T; 1A+1Lo+1Lo+2Lo+1Lo+2Lo

Michelle Kwan (2): 2A, 2A+2T, 3F, 3T+2T, 3S, 1Lp (pop), 3T, 3Lz hand down, turn over and foot down

Marie-Pierre Leray (7): no notes

Irina Slutskaya (3): 3Lz fall; 3T+2T; 3S hand and foot down; 3F fall; 3Lo turn/fall out; 3Lz fall; 2A; 3Lo tight landing; 3S
(very disappointing after her short program)

* * * * *
Skate Canada:

Gold: Krisztina Czako http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDOtdjFneKQ

Silver: Laetitia Hubert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfnyw4LhAfE

(need to check about bronze medalist; not on Youtube)

4th: Marina Kielmann http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2kbMj_Tq90
* * * * *
Trophee de France

Medal results were
1: Surya Bonaly
2: Tonia Kwiakowski
3: Michelle Kwan

No links for those programs, but here's one for the 6th place performance by Simone Lang, just because I like the program -- she finally became a mature artistic skater, even though she didn't have all the jumps . . . and then she retired
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyGH1otirbM

Nation's Cup

Tanja Szewczenko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZCmT_exvZY
(not sure how she finished, but as the reigning world bronze medalist she would have been a favorite going in)

* * * * *
NHK

Chen won with this performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0qX7xhNLw
One of my all-time favorite ladies programs. Basically clean performance; the loop might be downgradeable by today's rules. This should have established her as the favorite heading into Worlds.

* * * * *

I'll edit later if I get more jump details.

 

[Buttercup]

If this is up for anyone, I'd like to nominate the fall of 1994 (the 94/95 season with Lu Chen winning worlds). I'm quite curious.

Ooooh, Lulu at 1995 Worlds . That free skate is the first program I actually remember seeing (and liking). I watched some stuff from Albertville in 1992 but all I remember is Wylie winning the silver and Laetitia Hubert falling on just about every jump in her free skate; my memories of Lillehammer are extremely vague. Lulu's Last Emperor was gorgeous and she was wonderful - BTW, wasn't it choreographed by Toller Cranston?

I'll let gkelly discuss the fall competitions. I wasn't even aware such things existed back then...

 

[evangeline]

Oh, Janetfan, I guess the topic of CoP vs. 6.0 is one topic we will forever disagree on. But I will throw in my two cents anyways...

Does it make any sense under CoP for Jeremy to work on such intricate choreography with such attention to nuance only to see Joubert's much less intricate choreo and more casual music interpretation receive equal or better scores?

Apparently not - and Jeremy would be better off practicing quads and skating a program without so many beautiful transitions and such sensitve musical interpretation.

If this trend continues I will certainly be disappointed and I am not sure if I can call what we are seeing this season progress or the best direction for a sport that has always been appreciated for the way it successfully blended sport and art.

I find it interesting that you ask these questions in regards to CoP, as they can also very easily be applied to 6.0-era skating as well. Ugh, I hate to name names in my examples but I'm doing so for the sake of clarity.

For instance...does it make any sense under 6.0 for Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze to work on such intricate choreography with such attention to nuance only to see their top rivals' much less intricate choreo and more casual music interpretation receive equal or better scores even when their top rivals make mistakes?

Or....Timothy Goebel would be better off practicing quads and skating a program without working on beautiful transitions and sensitve musical interpretation since adding multiple quad jumps in his LP basically guarantees him a spot on the podium if he lands them, no matter what he does the rest of his program.


In my opinion, music interpretation and program originality has always, always been secondary to technical elements, no matter what system skating is being used. Would Michelle Kwan be multiple world champion and Olympic medalist if she didn't have a solid set of triples, no matter how beautiful and original her programs were? Or look at someone like Tara Lipinski--how did she become Olympic and World Champion? Her 3Lo-3Lo and her impressive jump repertoire, not the beauty or originality of her programs.

Art only counts towards success when you've got the sport side of figure skating down pat. You and I may not disagree with this....but this appears to have been the reality even in the days of 6.0.

 

[schiele]

Art only counts towards success when you've got the sport side of figure skating down pat. You and I may not disagree with this....but this appears to have been the reality even in the days of 6.0.

I very much agree with it.. And I actually think that is normal..

 

[Buttercup]

I still feel after watching the two SP's that Jeremy's choreo is not just more imaginative than Brian's but my key point is that it is more difficult. And his music interpretation seemed superior to me as well.

If it is more difficult then if I was judging I would have placed Jeremy first.

I couldn't remember what the bullet points where for CH but I just noticed that gkelly posted the link for PCS guidelines on another thread. For CH and IN, these are just wonderfully vague - basically, there's a lot of room for the judges to do whatever they want. Here, take a look - it's on pages 4 and 5.

Basically, as I wrote, I see it as comparing a really good apple with a really good orange. One person might prefer the orange because it's juicier and another will like the apple because it's crunchier. So what does that tell us about the quality of either? Nothing at all. You really can't compare skaters like that, unless we go to CD-like programs, and even then, almost no skater can perform equally well to all types of music, so it'll give some people an advantage. Maybe more like an OD? Heh, a folk SP for the men! Will people show up in pointy fuchsia boots?

Anyway, due to said vagueness, I read the guidelines as :if you like Jeremy's style, score him higher; if you like Brian's style, score him higher.

 

[seniorita]

At present, the spins do not highlight the music, so the solution is to get rid of the music? That's like cutting off your head because you have a toothache.

lol, good one!

asically, as I wrote, I see it as comparing a really good apple with a really good orange. One person might prefer the orange because it's juicier and another will like the apple because it's crunchier. So what does that tell us about the quality of either?

that if you want to combine both, you can maybe switch to peaches?:think:

In 6.0 spins looked like ok, one more element we have to do, in CoP it is not this way and you look forward to some skaters reaching the moment they will do the spins, well not always, it depends who skates but anyway..
I would say bring back also the qualification round, we dont see enough skating during a year and we want to get rid of sp as well?

 

[Mathman]

Was the ladies' field stronger or more consistent 15 years ago?...

Wow, thanks for this great post. I was a big Surya Bonaly fan back then. Still am. Excellent program for her.

By the way, Michelle Kwan (2nd place) never lost another Skate America from then on, winning seven in all.

...pointy fuchsia boots?

Oh, my eyes! That picture was photoshopped to add that screaming fushia, right? No fabric dye could come out that way.

To go back to the earlier suggestions on this thread about separate jump and spin contests, and then an artistic program and a "well-balanced" program, the more I think about this the better I like it. It is true that the technical contests would not have very much audience appeal, but so what? You could have the well-balanced on Saturday and the artistic on Sunday, taking the place of the exhibition.

The exhibitions are usually better attended than the actual competition anyway. The TV networks would probably like this just fine. The real sport buffs (together with parents, etc.) could go to the jump and spin contests earlier in the week, and the issue of pleasing the audience would not be a factor.

 

[prettykeys]

Basically, as I wrote, I see it as comparing a really good apple with a really good orange. One person might prefer the orange because it's juicier and another will like the apple because it's crunchier. So what does that tell us about the quality of either? Nothing at all. You really can't compare skaters like that, unless we go to CD-like programs, and even then, almost no skater can perform equally well to all types of music, so it'll give some people an advantage. Maybe more like an OD? Heh, a folk SP for the men! Will people show up in pointy fuchsia boots?

Anyway, due to said vagueness, I read the guidelines as :if you like Jeremy's style, score him higher; if you like Brian's style, score him higher.

This and your post #2 are my favourite posts in this entire thread.

To add another analogy. If anyone watches any dance shows/competitions at all (e.g. So You Think You Can Dance), where contestants are challenged to try other styles or invited to do solo's in their preferred genres--the ballet dancers aren't going to be propped up because they're amazing at ballet, even if their ballet solos are topnotch. Ballet can be considered one of the most difficult technique-wise, as well as one of the most sophisticated classical dance forms; but judges critique both internal excellence within the genre and performance/interpretation in the more general sense. Something like hip-hop is very popular and a very good hip-hop dancer is often more lauded than a very good ballet dancer even by the dance expert judges (I don't know why, because they have a wider appeal? maybe their style of dance is more versatile?) But what exactly about that is worth objecting to?

Furthermore, to bring it back to Joubert vs. Abbott, perhaps Joubert wouldn't have been able to perform Abbott's SP as well as the latter did. But likewise, I doubt Abbott would have been able to pull off Joubert's too successfully, either.

The talk about "the more sophisticated tastes", "more educated viewers would appreciate one over the other", "oh, it's poetry on ice vs. pandering to fangirls, woe to the poets" etc. reeks of condescension and pretentiousness.

 

[schiele]

The talk about "the more sophisticated tastes", "more educated viewers would appreciate one over the other", "oh, it's poetry on ice vs. pandering to fangirls, woe to the poets" etc. reeks of condescension and pretentiousness.

This is exactly what I said myself on Jenny on Joubert and Favoritism post..

 

[Buttercup]

Oh, my eyes! That picture was photoshopped to add that screaming fushia, right? No fabric dye could come out that way.

MM, I had similar reaction when I first saw that; it was indeed a most alarming sort of shiny fuchsia in person. I was in second row seats that day at TEB, and was thus in a position to make this assessment. In fact, let me offer this: the picture of these two that I took at the event. The quality is crap because my camera was not set up for that sort of photography, and because the high-res version is not on this computer; if any of my neighbors that day are reading this, do feel free to share your own pics!

Furthermore, to bring it back to Joubert vs. Abbott, perhaps Joubert wouldn't have been able to perform Abbott's SP as well as the latter did. But likewise, I doubt Abbott would have been able to pull off Joubert's too successfully, either.

The talk about "the more sophisticated tastes", "more educated viewers would appreciate one over the other", "oh, it's poetry on ice vs. pandering to fangirls, woe to the poets" etc. reeks of condescension and pretentiousness.

Exactly what I was getting at! For all that some people like to dismiss what Joubert is doing, there are few skaters who could pull off his programs convincingly. Also, I don't think Jeremy Abbott sees himself as some kind of elitist snob that only highly discerning fans can appreciate; I have no doubt he wants his skating to appeal to as many people as possible, but he's not willing to compromise and do something that doesn't suit him athletically or artistically. Same goes for Joubert - he could maybe play the system a bit more, but why would we want either of them to be anything other than the best they can be, with programs that highlight their strengths as skaters?

 

[janetfan]

For all that some people like to dismiss what Joubert is doing, there are few skaters who could pull off his programs convincingly. Also, I don't think Jeremy Abbott sees himself as some kind of elitist snob that only highly discerning fans can appreciate; I have no doubt he wants his skating to appeal to as many people as possible, but he's not willing to compromise and do something that doesn't suit him athletically or artistically. Same goes for Joubert - he could maybe play the system a bit more, but why would we want either of them to be anything other than the best they can be, with programs that highlight their strengths as skaters?

As I mentioned earlier and at other topics, I happen to be a Joubert fan. I have always liked him and appreciate what he brings to the ice.

It is a shame for the sake of this discussion that Brian wasn't at COR and skating as well as he did at NHK.

MY, my, what a dilema? Who would have won?
If I am to believe some of what I read here it is easy. :yes:

Plushy would have won for two reasons:

1. He was in Russia and would have had louder screams from the fans.
That would have surely boosted his already high pcs :agree:

2. Plushy's hip thrust would not have received as much GOE as Joubert's did, but Plushy's now immortal "finger" and the artistry he demonstrated using it simply trumped anything in Joubert's arsenal of crowd pleasing tricks.

Who says sophistication is dead?

 

[seniorita]

You never know who would have won cause they might have skated quite differently from what they did but one thing i m sure of is that Weir would get the louder girl scream anyway.

 

[antmanb]

Exactly what I was getting at! For all that some people like to dismiss what Joubert is doing, there are few skaters who could pull off his programs convincingly. Also, I don't think Jeremy Abbott sees himself as some kind of elitist snob that only highly discerning fans can appreciate; I have no doubt he wants his skating to appeal to as many people as possible, but he's not willing to compromise and do something that doesn't suit him athletically or artistically. Same goes for Joubert - he could maybe play the system a bit more, but why would we want either of them to be anything other than the best they can be, with programs that highlight their strengths as skaters?

I agree with everything you've written except the part in bold. I think he plays the system perfectly well with his current tactic - the system rewards what he does because he does it well,can you imagine Brian trying to pander and attempt to be a ballet dancer on ice? He wouldn't pull it off and his PCS would take a nose dive.

He uses his exuberant style very very well, and despite all the talk of lines - he has is on the best male skaters posture wise that there is. He has a really straight back like Rochette. It's a shame that higher levels in footwork = sloppy posture and spastic limbs because IMO one of the best things about Brian is his straight back.

Ant