Do you think Michelle

[attyfan]

ITA. I just hope these judges judging more consistantly from Olympics to Olympics, competetions to competetions......I would think if they prefered Bauil at 1994, they should've prefered Kwan at 1998, yet they diddn't........

The one judge who was at both Olys -- Hoffman -- did go for Baiul in '94 and Kwan in '98. This shows that Hoffman was consistent. I don't think that you can expect a lot of consistency, though, among different judges.

 

[mzheng]

The one judge who was at both Olys -- Hoffman -- did go for Baiul in '94 and Kwan in '98. This shows that Hoffman was consistent. I don't think that you can expect a lot of consistency, though, among different judges.

Sure I do hope majority consistency among different judges, since they apply the same judge rules/critirias, no matter what system they use. Not to mention 94 and 98 they basically use the same system and rules. Even with different system, I'd expect some what consistant result, since the change of the judge system not suppose to change the sports critirias dramatically. Otherwise I'd suspect the system design has some problem.

 

[antmanb]

Why would you think that she has choreographed a program for Kwan that does NOT use all 8 jumping passes like she did for Weir? Maybe Weir doesn't like doing all 8 jumping passes and Kwan is all for it. Doesn't Shizuka use all 8 jumping passes? Looking at Cohen's new LP, she didn't use all 8 jumping passes but that was Campbells so maybe she wasn't that prepared to put them in, but she looked pretty darn good to me.

The only thing I can say now is: Go Alissa! Stun the world!

I'd be willing to bet my life that she hasn't choreographed a program for kwan that includes 8 jumping passes since the women are only allowed 7 .

Also i never speculated about the program TT has made for Kwan on the basis that i have not seen it performed or practised so i don't think i have any kind of an argument. The statement was purely that i think David Wilson is a better choregorapher than TT and that i question her CoP "savy"ness if the program she did alst year for Weir and seemingly this year leaves a jumping pass out.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Weir said, in his latest journal, that he had to re-do the program because judges and callers said that his spins, etc., weren't difficult enough -- and even with the re-done program, he didn't use all his jumping passes. Furthermore, the programs TT has done for other skaters (Tim, Shizuka) seem to use all their jumping passes; it isn't TT's fault if the skater doesn't land them.

No its not her fault if they don't land them but Weir isn't not landing an 8th jump, he's not attempting one - and while i admire his artistic integrity in doing what he feels is right for the program, someone needs to beat him over the head with the CoP manual and point out that the difference between doing all level four spins and steps instead of level 2 or 3 won't even add up to the worth of a solo double axel done as his eigth jumping pass. I'm all for artistic skating probably more so than the technical skating but if you're going to whinge and whine openly about CoP (which for the recrod i also think is a good thing) than at least give yourself the best chacne under the system in place to win...if he's missing medals by more than 3.5 points then just do a double axel as your last jump...

Ant

 

[antmanb]

7 jumping passes for ladies.

As for the men, it's tricky to know what to do if you don't have a quad. If you don't have a quad, then you have to do a couple of triple-triple combinations early, and then you are pretty much Zayaked out by the time you get to your last two passes.

At Campbell's, Lysacek's first triple toe was supposed to be a quad. When he bailed with a triple, that seemed to take the spirit out of the whole program. I bet the program Johnny is working toward not only uses all eight passes, but also includes a quad attempt.

About Irina's performance at Worlds, I don't really have any objection to the judges saying to themselves, wow, that was a great show, let's pile on the points for transitions, choreography, etc. Maybe this defeats the purpose of the CoP, but the judges have to be allowed to do something toward determining the winner, otherwise why are they sitting there?

MM

About the jumping passes - you pull a Kevin VDP and throw in three double axels in your program since Zayak doesn't apply to doubles. That's how he did so well on the GP last year, with the 3/3/3 he ended up with three or maybe even four double axels to max out his points, and it worked. At Skate America he too was down a jumping pass in the LP i think.

Re PCS score s- you see i do have a problem with judges throwing down marks that aren't deserved, if they're going to be so anal about the tech mark and downgrading and jumps and hitting them for double penalties etc etc then the least i expect is to see a proper mark be given. Example - Irina's SP from last year was absolutely superb - the none required elements parts were well choreographed, she had great speed, the transitions were fiendishly difficult the transition from (was it a step seuqence or a spin) to the double axel from that one foot turn to forwards...give her a 10 for transitions that would be justified, but go back and look at the LP - the emotion came from what it meant for her to have comeback from her illness from the all the badness with her mother...last tim ei looked there isn't a "peronal cirucmstances" mark or a "comeback from adversity" mark. the LP was empty and very sloppily performed - the result was right - she won the LP and i totally agree with taht, what i disagree with is PCS in teh 8s when cohen *skated* better....oh my god i think hell just froze over i actually made an argument in favour of cohen!!!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

For two reasons: 1. to use their judgement by following the guidelines that are there to ensure the correct weight of each aspect of skating, instead of overinflating and overemphasizing a specific aspect of the skate and 2. to make performances over different competitions comparable, which doesn't work if #1 doesn't happen. There's a reason for each element's and each component scores value.

I don't know anyone who questions that Slutskaya shoudn't have won the LP and title in Moscow. The question is whether the scores in Moscow and particularly in Torino were inflated and disproportionate to the actual performance.

Thank you - you make the point very clearly - that's was i was trying to say!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

ITA. I just hope these judges judging more consistantly from Olympics to Olympics, competetions to competetions......I would think if they prefered Bauil at 1994, they should've prefered Kwan at 1998, yet they diddn't........

But it was a mostly different judging panel so its not going to be consistent, plus four years had passed and trends change in 4 years, certain things become "flavour of the season" etc etc. Personally idon't think Baiul is anywhere near as good a skater as Tara, Michelle or Sarah for that matter. I only recently got to see her Oly LP and honestly i don't get it in the slightest...a bit like my feeling about Cohen - she looks like a fragile skater skating on the ice not into the ice.

Ant

 

[slutskayafan21]

These are probably the same judges who thought Kwan was too young to be a ladies champion but had no problem with Tara .......who looked about 12!

Well in 97 I dont neccessarily think the judges were thrilled with Tara as a skater. They pretty much had to give the titles to her, since she was the only one who was a semi-acceptable winner of those events. Kwan was in a huge slump, and going through a confidence crisis as I am sure you know; Irina had a great opportunity to go on top that year but was going through major weight problems, consistent problems, motivation problems; Chen was out of commision with severe injuries. What other option was there, Butyrskaya who still a jerky and awkward skater, she was only a relatively smooth skater in the years 98-2000, who could never do a triple lutz clean in the long program anyway?Kwiatkwoski, Czako? Kwan being 2nd at every major event even with all the mistakes she was making, with the possable exception for Worlds where she was pretty decent and only a step out on her combo in the short cost her the gold, was bad enough; it would have been an embarassment if Kwan's error-filled performances were really the #1 performances, and a sign of the very poor level of womens skating that year(which was already apparent enough). So it was pretty much was Tara by consolation. In 95 that was not the case, since Chen, Bonaly, and Bobek were all skating very strongly that year; they had no reason to feel compelled to have to give a less mature and polished 14-year old a gold medal. Kwan had 1st place votes from 1 or 2 judges in the short and long though, even with Chen and Bobek skating cleanly in the short, and Chen in long; would Tara have even gotten a single first place vote vs Kwan skating cleanly in 97? I highly doubt it. So I dont feel it was judging double standards as some suggested, Tara simply stepped into a very favorable and fortunate situation, Kwan did not.

 

[Bijoux]

I promise to be unbiased if they will let me on the judging panel for the ladies FS of the Olympics! AND I will forgo the anonymity and let the world know how I scored them and why!:thumbsup:

Ditto here!

 

[mzheng]

About the jumping passes - you pull a Kevin VDP and throw in three double axels in your program since Zayak doesn't apply to doubles. That's how he did so well on the GP last year, with the 3/3/3 he ended up with three or maybe even four double axels to max out his points, and it worked. At Skate America he too was down a jumping pass in the LP i think.

Ant

If he throw in that many double axels just for the sake of Tek points. then imo judges should ding him the choreograph component score in TCS.

 

[Eeyora]

It all depends on simple things:
How they skate
and Michelle mastering COP's.

 

[curious]

Irina won because of her jumps, energy and Sasha's mistakes. I agree the politics are still there and CoP or no CoP, a Rusian sweep seems likely this year.

Personally, I prefer Weir to Plush even without a quad, and Sasha with a fall regardless of how many triples Irina can throw. I think they will hold up Irina 1) because she's world champ and undefeated so far last and this season, and 2) she is ill and they find her so spunky.

Irina won cause she skated better than your faves. The fact that the sick girl can do what certain skaters can't even in good health is remarkable. it makes me respect her even more. A hard pill to swallow for some people but that's their problem

 

[Bijoux]

ITA curious, she did jump the best and I admire her gumption. Her style however is was and always will be awkward. She is one of my faves, for sure.

 

[euterpe]

Well in 97 I dont neccessarily think the judges were thrilled with Tara as a skater. They pretty much had to give the titles to her, since she was the only one who was a semi-acceptable winner of those events. Kwan was in a huge slump, and going through a confidence crisis as I am sure you know; Irina had a great opportunity to go on top that year but was going through major weight problems, consistent problems, motivation problems; Chen was out of commision with severe injuries. What other option was there, Butyrskaya who still a jerky and awkward skater, she was only a relatively smooth skater in the years 98-2000, who could never do a triple lutz clean in the long program anyway?Kwiatkwoski, Czako? Kwan being 2nd at every major event even with all the mistakes she was making, with the possable exception for Worlds where she was pretty decent and only a step out on her combo in the short cost her the gold, was bad enough; it would have been an embarassment if Kwan's error-filled performances were really the #1 performances, and a sign of the very poor level of womens skating that year(which was already apparent enough). So it was pretty much was Tara by consolation. In 95 that was not the case, since Chen, Bonaly, and Bobek were all skating very strongly that year; they had no reason to feel compelled to have to give a less mature and polished 14-year old a gold medal. Kwan had 1st place votes from 1 or 2 judges in the short and long though, even with Chen and Bobek skating cleanly in the short, and Chen in long; would Tara have even gotten a single first place vote vs Kwan skating cleanly in 97? I highly doubt it. So I dont feel it was judging double standards as some suggested, Tara simply stepped into a very favorable and fortunate situation, Kwan did not.

I don't know where you get your information from, but it seems you focus entirely on negatives when it comes to Kwan.

Here is a list of 20 competitions Kwan skated in from the fall of '96 through the fall of '98: In the '96-97 season, she suffered a stress fracture in her foot which may have had something to do with her few losses that season. Despite that, she won 16 of those 20 competitions, so where is the "huge slump" and the "confidence crisis"? From what I see, Kwan bounced back from her few losses in the '96-'97 season and went on with her winning ways, snatching back her US Championship from Tara just before the '98 Olympics. After the Olympic loss to Tara, she regrouped and went on to become the most dominant force in Ladies figure skating.

'96 Continents Cup - 1st
'96 Skate America - 1st
'96 Lalique - 1st (beat Tara)
'96 Ultimate 4 - 1st
'97 Japan Open - 1st
'97 US Championships - 2nd
'97 GPF - 2nd
'97 Worlds - 2nd
'97 Skate America - 1st
'97 Skate Canada - 1st
'98 US Championships - 1st
'98 Olympics - 2nd
'98 Worlds - 1st
'98 Ultimate Four - 1st
'98 Goodwill Games - 1st
'98 Grand Slam of FS -1st
'98 Keri Classic - 1st
'98 US Pro Classic - 1st
'98 Masters of Figure Skating - 1st
'98 World Pro Championships - 1st

 

[millie]

I don't know where you get your information from, but it seems you focus entirely on negatives when it comes to Kwan.

Here is a list of 20 competitions Kwan skated in from the fall of '96 through the fall of '98: In the '96-97 season, she suffered a stress fracture in her foot which may have had something to do with her few losses that season. Despite that, she won 16 of those 20 competitions, so where is the "huge slump" and the "confidence crisis"? From what I see, Kwan bounced back from her few losses in the '96-'97 season and went on with her winning ways, snatching back her US Championship from Tara just before the '98 Olympics. After the Olympic loss to Tara, she regrouped and went on to become the most dominant force in Ladies figure skating.

'96 Continents Cup - 1st
'96 Skate America - 1st
'96 Lalique - 1st (beat Tara)
'96 Ultimate 4 - 1st
'97 Japan Open - 1st
'97 US Championships - 2nd
'97 GPF - 2nd
'97 Worlds - 2nd
'97 Skate America - 1st
'97 Skate Canada - 1st
'98 US Championships - 1st
'98 Olympics - 2nd
'98 Worlds - 1st
'98 Ultimate Four - 1st
'98 Goodwill Games - 1st
'98 Grand Slam of FS -1st
'98 Keri Classic - 1st
'98 US Pro Classic - 1st
'98 Masters of Figure Skating - 1st
'98 World Pro Championships - 1st

That was then, this is now!!!

 

[attyfan]

That was then, this is now!!!

Irina was written off, not only when she was ill, but after
the '98/'99 season, too. She came back. Chen Lu and Nancy Kerrigan were reigning Oly bronze medalists when they had career worst free skates at Worlds (Nancy - '03; Lulu - '97); they came back. Michelle has had her share of comebacks in the past, and I wouldn't be too sure that she won't have another.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I don't know where you get your information from, but it seems you focus entirely on negatives when it comes to Kwan.

Here is a list of 20 competitions Kwan skated in from the fall of '96 through the fall of '98: In the '96-97 season, she suffered a stress fracture in her foot which may have had something to do with her few losses that season. Despite that, she won 16 of those 20 competitions, so where is the "huge slump" and the "confidence crisis"? From what I see, Kwan bounced back from her few losses in the '96-'97 season and went on with her winning ways, snatching back her US Championship from Tara just before the '98 Olympics. After the Olympic loss to Tara, she regrouped and went on to become the most dominant force in Ladies figure skating.

'96 Continents Cup - 1st
'96 Skate America - 1st
'96 Lalique - 1st (beat Tara)
'96 Ultimate 4 - 1st
'97 Japan Open - 1st
'97 US Championships - 2nd
'97 GPF - 2nd
'97 Worlds - 2nd
'97 Skate America - 1st
'97 Skate Canada - 1st
'98 US Championships - 1st
'98 Olympics - 2nd
'98 Worlds - 1st
'98 Ultimate Four - 1st
'98 Goodwill Games - 1st
'98 Grand Slam of FS -1st
'98 Keri Classic - 1st
'98 US Pro Classic - 1st
'98 Masters of Figure Skating - 1st
'98 World Pro Championships - 1st

I dont know what you are interpreting my comments as. I never disputed Kwan was an outstanding skater, with an outstanding overall record in 96-98. I stated in the 96-97 season she struggled, especialy in the last 3 major events, U.S nationals, Grand Prix final, and Worlds, although Worlds was by far the best of those three, and only an error in the short cost her the title. Her performance in the long program at the U.S nationals was a disaester, and her performances at the Grand Prix final were badly flawed for potential winning performances. Thus Tara won, neccessarily because the judges loved her skating or readily accepted her as a 14-year old superstar in a way they did not Kwan in 95, but because there was no real alternative atleast at the U.S nationals and GP final. That was my only point. Kwan herself, and her camp, talk about her confidence crisis early in 1997, I did not imply it lasted a long time, but that it occured while Tara was winning those first major events.

 

[skatingfan5]

I don't think Michelle won every nationals convincingly. 2000, her first year, Sasha should have won. EVEN NNN outskated her.

Huh?? Are you saying that NNN outskated Sasha? In 2000? I was there and I can assure you NNN certainly did not outskate either Sasha or MK. And Sasha didn't outskate MK. If you are referring to 1999 for NNN, she certainly didn't outskate Michelle at Nationals that year. Naomi's SP had that horrendous fall on the triple flip where she hit her head -- she actually was lucky to be in 4th for the SP. Her FS was certainly skated with verve and spirit and lots of great presentation -- and wonderful spins -- but she didn't have a lutz and her jump content was much lower than Michelle's. Even with a fall, Michelle clearly won the FS that year.

Sorry to take the thread back to page one, but whenever I see such inaccurate revisionist history, I feel compelled to respond.

 

[R.D.]

Irina was written off, not only when she was ill, but after
the '98/'99 season, too. She came back. Chen Lu and Nancy Kerrigan were reigning Oly bronze medalists when they had career worst free skates at Worlds (Nancy - '03; Lulu - '97); they came back. Michelle has had her share of comebacks in the past, and I wouldn't be too sure that she won't have another.

I agree, but the circumstances are a little different this time than they were in the past, thanks to the new scoring system.

 

[attyfan]

I agree, but the circumstances are a little different this time than they were in the past, thanks to the new scoring system.

I don't think that the new system makes that much of a change. After all, Kwan's non-CoP-friendly "Bolero" still came in 3rd -- with a fall -- when she did the elements that she had planned; it was the QR -- when she didn't do the elements that she had planned -- that killed her. Therefore, the issue (IMO) is whether Kwan will be able to do the planned elements. The "comeback stories" show that nerves and drive play a big part in this -- and if Michelle's hip is OK, I think her nerves and drive will "stand her in good stead" for the remainder.