Does ISU Qualification System Need Reform?

[schizoanalyst]

Every Olympic season we all get heartbroken as one of our favorites is left off the team. In any competition with a finite number of spots this is going to be inevitable, but our existing system aggravates this because it denies many extremely talented individuals from being able to attend Olympics and Worlds when many other qualification systems for Olympic sports would allow them. We always complain and cry about it, but we never really seem to question the qualification system.

I see three major problems with the qualification system as it exists now.

1 - It does not sufficiently account for the concentration of talent in just a handful of countries. Russian women’s nationals isn’t much less competitive than the Olympics or Worlds and Japanese nationals isn’t far behind. It’s silly that we cap them at 3 entries.

2 - The qualification system benefits countries that have an otherwise quite weak pool, but display one exceptional skater. Simply because Carolina Kostner, Javier Fernandez, or Elizabet Tursynbayeva are talented skaters, that shouldn’t necessary entitle Italy, Spain, or Kazakhstan to multiple spots. Does Canadian Ladies really deserve 3 spots either? Japanese mens? These spots could be used to give more spots for talented skaters in other countries - and even if you are not worried about the concentration of talent problem I cited above and think it's OK to keep it at 3 per nation, it is simply unfair to award spots based on nationality while denying other skaters who could otherwise earn those spots on say the Challenger Series, just because they don’t have a star skater to push them up.

3 - It relies too strongly on just two competitions (Worlds and Nebelhorn). Figure skating isn’t like a typical sport, performance can vary significantly from one competition to the next and so should be more holistically measured. (other “trick based” sports usually solve this by allowing multiple runs and keeping your best - like halfpipe, but this isn’t plausible in figure skating)

I’ve worked out a complicated system just for fun to see what the results would be (I personally liked it) and I won’t list it here cause it’s silly, but the general principles I think that would help these issue:

1 - Increase the cap

2 - Base the number of slots on overall and seasonal rankings of a federations skaters, rather than just two competitions.

3 - To prevent it from becoming Japanese+Russian+US Nationals, recognizing it’s important to promote skating in other countries and that it’s nice to watch even lower-ranked skaters (I always enjoy Brendan Kerry, for example), award say 10-15 spots (out of a set 30-36, depending if Worlds/Nationals) to nations that otherwise do not qualify skaters under 1+2.

I think this system would have a lot of benefits. It would satisfy the fans more and increase the quality of each event - especially the smaller events as athletes would likely work harder for world rankings on say the Challenger Series because there are now slots potentially available to them that didn't otherwise exist because they were awarded to federations riding on the coattails of a star skater.

 

[NaVi]

The system is fine. There's no need to give out more than 3 spots. Half the people who stumble onto figure skating broadcasts can't tell the jumps apart or the revolutions. It's better to have a more diverse set of skaters. It gives judges a bit more space to breath and prevents earlier skaters from having their scores sandbagged.

I think at some point(when South Korea gets more competitive in ladies) I think it would be a good idea to make it slightly easier to keep 3 spots.

 

[Tahuu]

Maybe a slight change of the qualification rule for countries with only one skater at Worlds from earning 3 spots to 2 spots if he/she places top 2, and from earning 2 spots to 1 spot if places top 10. The extra spots saved may be used as wild cards to be awarded by ISU to special cases, including countries with multiple skaters on top 10 seasonal best (not world standing). It would keep the number of countries represented at the Olympics while allow ISU to award more spots to better skaters in other countries.

 

[charlotte14]

Yes they should. It's too outdated.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I can see both sides of the argument.

I totally agree that it is unfair to have qualification for the Olympics being based on just two competitions - one Major Championship, and one Senior B. As schizoanalyst says, your form can change from one day to the next. So, if you happen to have an off-day on the day of the qualifying competition, well, that's it over.

And what makes this even unfairer is that you are not necessarily qualifying a spot for yourself - you are qualifying a spot for your country. So, even if you have a good showing in the qualifying, it doesn't necessarily mean you will go to the main event.

No, at the very least, qualifying should be based on what has happened in the whole of the current season (i.e. the ISU Season's World Rankings). Even better would be basing it on the whole of the previous 12 months, or even the whole of the past 2 seasons (i.e. the ISU World Standings).

But, the whole way the Olympics is set up is wrong anyway. It should be the same rules as for the other Majors, specifically Worlds. Where this is the underlying principle:

As long as the skater meets the Minimum TES, every country automatically has one slot.​

That's great. I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with the way additional slots are earned either (although, I would add a clause stating that the reigning champion is automatically qualified in addition to their country's quota).

For me, the problem is the way the Minimum TES is being set. Yes, as the top skaters push the scores higher and higher, you need to raise the qualifying requirement to keep the competition relatively fair. And it is working well in Singles skating. But, it is really stifling things in Pairs and Dance. Particularly Pairs.

Put simply, the Minimum TES is being set too high in Pairs and Dance. And, as a result, the number of entries to the ISU competitions is getting smaller and smaller. And, with the Olympics also having the citizenship requirement, it is getting critical.

For many people, the Olympics is the only time they will see figure skating. And, many children get inspired by what they see at the Olympics. But, most TV broadcasters simply can't fit everything in. So, they only show what appears to be popular. And if they see a competition with only a small number of entries, they are more likely to drop it than a competition with a lot of entries (even though they are likely to not even show the whole competition). So, if the children don't see the Pairs competition, they will not get inspired to take up Pairs skating. And so a vicious circle develops.

I know that there is a set number of slots at the Olympics, and that the number of slots is smaller for Pairs. But, that is because so few are meeting the requirements! If the requirements were lower and more partnerships were meeting them, I would expect the number of slots would be increased (or, at least, I would hope they were!)

Yes, having more people meeting the requirements would make competitions longer. And at the Olympics, time is at a premium. But, in figure skating, longer competitions could easily be accomodated because there is only one competition each day. It would just be the practice sessions held on the Main Rink that would need to be re-arranged. And if needs-be, these could be accomodated by getting rid of the Olympic Team Event and spreading the rest of the figure skating out a bit more...

Those are my thoughts. The thoughts of somebody who prefers Worlds to the Olympics.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Barb]

it is sad see some good skaters out of the olympics but I think that is one of the reasons because olympics are so special, it is not only an event organized each 4 years and worldwide televised, but it is very difficult to get the spot too.

 

[GF2445]

I personally would like to see the number of spots increase to six warm up groups for the SP, and have the normal cut off to 4 groups in the Free Program.
30 to 36 in Singles
20 to 24 in Pairs
24 to 30 in Ice Dance

I also want there to be a possibility for a fourth spot if three skaters at worlds/euros championship perform exceptionally well (e.g. Three skaters placements add to 13 or less)

As to the qualification system of two competitions. I don't mind it. What bothers be at times is how in the event a spot is vacated, but instead of handing that quota spot to the first alternate (who fought at Nebelhorn), if the nation has another skater/couple, that nation still keeps their quota spot.

 

[gkelly]

Are we talking about Olympic qualification only? Part of the issue there might be the IOC wanting to keep the overall numbers down.

Otherwise the qualification system could just be the same as for ISU Championships.

If you gave an automatic place to the reigning world champion, then you could take away the 1-person team earns 3 slots by finishing in the top 2 provision. Or expand to something like what they did in the 1980s: last year's medalists earn their own slots and their placements also affect the quota of slots each federation gets to fill, with the cap being 3 per country plus the world champ or world medalists.

At Worlds, allowing an extra skater or up to 3 extra skaters per country in case of a podium sweep and wildcard spots to all reigning medalists, those extra slots don't affect the number of slots available to lower-ranked federations -- the only limit there is the minimum scores.

But the Olympics are not going to allow 53 ladies (see 2010 Worlds, before the minimums). So there will be a cap on the number of slots available for the short program. And that's the IOC's issue, which the ISU just needs to comply with.

Put simply, the Minimum TES is being set too high in Pairs and Dance. And, as a result, the number of entries to the ISU competitions is getting smaller and smaller.

That is not true. There were 28 pairs at 2017 Worlds, which I believe is all-time record. The previous record may have been 25 in 1997. And that's with a higher minimum score needed for Worlds than for Olympics/Euros/4Cs.

(There were 32 dance teams at 2017 Worlds, which may not be a record but does seem to be the largest number since minimum scores were introduced. As far as I can tell from some quick research, the record seems to be 35 at 2001 Worlds.)

Although the minimum scores could be adjusted a bit, if the goal is to get pairs from more countries at the Olympics so more children can watch their compatriots compete in this sport, the simple answer would be to go back to allowing 24 or even up to 30 pairs to enter the short program and then cut to 20 instead of 16 for the freeskate.

With only 4 pairs allowed per warmup group for safety reasons, that's a lot of ice cuts. And they probably wouldn't want to wait three warmups between cuts, again for safety.

So, if the children don't see the Pairs competition, they will not get inspired to take up Pairs skating. And so a vicious circle develops.

I'm sure there are some children who take up figure skating specifically with pairs in mind. But you can't do pair skating as a beginner -- you need to learn to skate first. If they're inspired by singles skaters to start skating in the first place, they can get inspired to move into pairs after they're already involved in the sport and aware from the inside of the the various disciplines available.

The real trick to getting more pairs in most countries would be getting more boys into the sport, and specifically boys who will become larger, strong teenagers and men and who are willing to focus on tricks other than jumps and not to be the main center of attention.

For ice dance, to get more boys involved who are willing not to jump at all.

 

[mrrice]

Every Olympic season we all get heartbroken as one of our favorites is left off the team. In any competition with a finite number of spots this is going to be inevitable, but our existing system aggravates this because it denies many extremely talented individuals from being able to attend Olympics and Worlds when many other qualification systems for Olympic sports would allow them. We always complain and cry about it, but we never really seem to question the qualification system.

I see three major problems with the qualification system as it exists now.

1 - It does not sufficiently account for the concentration of talent in just a handful of countries. Russian women’s nationals isn’t much less competitive than the Olympics or Worlds and Japanese nationals isn’t far behind. It’s silly that we cap them at 3 entries.

2 - The qualification system benefits countries that have an otherwise quite weak pool, but display one exceptional skater. Simply because Carolina Kostner, Javier Fernandez, or Elizabet Tursynbayeva are talented skaters, that shouldn’t necessary entitle Italy, Spain, or Kazakhstan to multiple spots. Does Canadian Ladies really deserve 3 spots either? Japanese mens? These spots could be used to give more spots for talented skaters in other countries - and even if you are not worried about the concentration of talent problem I cited above and think it's OK to keep it at 3 per nation, it is simply unfair to award spots based on nationality while denying other skaters who could otherwise earn those spots on say the Challenger Series, just because they don’t have a star skater to push them up.

3 - It relies too strongly on just two competitions (Worlds and Nebelhorn). Figure skating isn’t like a typical sport, performance can vary significantly from one competition to the next and so should be more holistically measured. (other “trick based” sports usually solve this by allowing multiple runs and keeping your best - like halfpipe, but this isn’t plausible in figure skating)

I’ve worked out a complicated system just for fun to see what the results would be (I personally liked it) and I won’t list it here cause it’s silly, but the general principles I think that would help these issue:

1 - Increase the cap

2 - Base the number of slots on overall and seasonal rankings of a federations skaters, rather than just two competitions.

3 - To prevent it from becoming Japanese+Russian+US Nationals, recognizing it’s important to promote skating in other countries and that it’s nice to watch even lower-ranked skaters (I always enjoy Brendan Kerry, for example), award say 10-15 spots (out of a set 30-36, depending if Worlds/Nationals) to nations that otherwise do not qualify skaters under 1+2.

I think this system would have a lot of benefits. It would satisfy the fans more and increase the quality of each event - especially the smaller events as athletes would likely work harder for world rankings on say the Challenger Series because there are now slots potentially available to them that didn't otherwise exist because they were awarded to federations riding on the coattails of a star skater.

I agree with this comment. I think they should base it on scores. When there are virtually 5 ladies in Russia who can outskate most of the medalists from other countries, I think they should make an exception and go by scores. Can you imagine making the GPF and still missing the World Team. If Med is healthy, there are some very good skaters who will be staying home. Including former World Champion, Tuk.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Are we talking about Olympic qualification only? Part of the issue there might be the IOC wanting to keep the overall numbers down.

Otherwise the qualification system could just be the same as for ISU Championships.

If you gave an automatic place to the reigning world champion, then you could take away the 1-person team earns 3 slots by finishing in the top 2 provision. Or expand to something like what they did in the 1980s: last year's medalists earn their own slots and their placements also affect the quota of slots each federation gets to fill, with the cap being 3 per country plus the world champ or world medalists.

At Worlds, allowing an extra skater or up to 3 extra skaters per country in case of a podium sweep and wildcard spots to all reigning medalists, those extra slots don't affect the number of slots available to lower-ranked federations -- the only limit there is the minimum scores.

But the Olympics are not going to allow 53 ladies (see 2010 Worlds, before the minimums). So there will be a cap on the number of slots available for the short program. And that's the IOC's issue, which the ISU just needs to comply with.

I was only born in the 80's, so I don't remember that system. But, it sounds like to would be quite a good idea. Why was it changed?

But, definitely, 50-odd entries for the SP is too many. I still remember how during some of the Junior GP's last season, even the most ardent fans of Junior skating were complaining that the competitions were too long because there was no limit on the number of entries.

That is not true. There were 28 pairs at 2017 Worlds, which I believe is all-time record. The previous record may have been 25 in 1997. And that's with a higher minimum score needed for Worlds than for Olympics/Euros/4Cs.

(There were 32 dance teams at 2017 Worlds, which may not be a record but does seem to be the largest number since minimum scores were introduced. As far as I can tell from some quick research, the record seems to be 35 at 2001 Worlds.)

Although the minimum scores could be adjusted a bit, if the goal is to get pairs from more countries at the Olympics so more children can watch their compatriots compete in this sport, the simple answer would be to go back to allowing 24 or even up to 30 pairs to enter the short program and then cut to 20 instead of 16 for the freeskate.

With only 4 pairs allowed per warmup group for safety reasons, that's a lot of ice cuts. And they probably wouldn't want to wait three warmups between cuts, again for safety.

Sorry, I was thinking of Europeans when talking about the small number of entries in Pairs.

But, going back to having something like 32 in the SP, going down to 24 in the FS, was what I was envisaging. So, we are on the same wavelength there.

I actually don't mind having a lot of groups and multiple resurfacings.

I'm sure there are some children who take up figure skating specifically with pairs in mind. But you can't do pair skating as a beginner -- you need to learn to skate first. If they're inspired by singles skaters to start skating in the first place, they can get inspired to move into pairs after they're already involved in the sport and aware from the inside of the the various disciplines available.

The real trick to getting more pairs in most countries would be getting more boys into the sport, and specifically boys who will become larger, strong teenagers and men and who are willing to focus on tricks other than jumps and not to be the main center of attention.

For ice dance, to get more boys involved who are willing not to jump at all.

That is indeed what is needed. But, it doesn't seem to be working as well as we would like.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[gkelly]

I was only born in the 80's, so I don't remember that system. But, it sounds like to would be quite a good idea. Why was it changed?

The way it worked then, a medal would earn three spots for the federation, but the person who won that medal had to be one of them. So if they retired, the spot retired with them.

E.g., Brian Boitano won gold and Debi Thomas won bronze at 1988 Worlds, but the US only got two spots for men and ladies in 1989 because Boitano and Thomas weren't available to take those spots.

Here we're talking about a variation where two (or top two) skaters could earn three spots for the federation by their placements adding up to 13 or less and also if one of them medaled they would get an additional spot for themselves (but no one else could take it if they personally were not available). Theoretically if that applied to all medals, then if one federation swept the podium they would earn three spots for the federation plus three designated spots for those three skaters, for a possible total of six spots for that country, assuming the federation is willing to send six skaters in that discipline and has three skaters besides the reigning medalists who have earned the minimum scores.

If that's too many, then just give the designated spot to the reigning champion and not the silver and bronze medalists.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Looking at the SB scores for the women, there are only 6 countries represented in the top 30, and only 4 with more than one athlete in that group. I'm ok with limiting the big events to three per country because, personally, I think it's better for the sport that participation is possible from countries without a long tradition of skating. As good as the Russian women are, they haven't been able to place three women in the top 5 at Worlds in 2015, 2016, or 2017, so it's unlikely that a world medalist was left at home any of these years.

 

[Anyasnake]

If you increase the number of spots by countries, it's going to end up being a Russia vs Japan competition for ladies for example.
At the end of the day, take Russia top 6 and Japan top 5, there is just not enough room for everybody. That's the rules, but every country gets its chance, otherwise you're going to have a sport represented internationally with "blocks" : Russia, USA, Japan, Canada, China (maybe). There are 100+ countries that could be represented (something the ISU should work on - I'm happy Australia is on the map now, when will we have an Australian World Championships - or a Spanish European Championships ?).

What I don't like is the limitation of skaters/teams per Olympics. 20 for pairs in 2018 is a joke (24 could be better), just watch the 2017 World Pair event, it was incredible, the 1st team not being able to qualify was at 60+. Same for Ice Dance, we could get that up to 30 (6 groups of 5 is ideal).
Actually if you take every category, the level has increased since 2010 and 2014, that's why it would make more sense to send more people. But then it's a question of money, isn't it ?

 

[college pat]

i don't mind the cap of skaters- to 3. didn't there use to be a rule up until 1960 the federations could send more than 3 skaters.

But part of the 3 is to allow skating to grow and get it more widespread and help other countries that would know/allow figure skating to be in.
It makes it harder for countries to be the only country to field a olympic/world team.

part of the reason the grand prix is boring is because either russian skaters take over. which country constantly, fans want to watch all of 1 one country skate in a competition. If happens too much won't watch and
skaters may not skate/ or try . i think that is one reason i don't care it seems they favor 1 country over the other- 3 in final would be fine. 4-6 isn't.
do they judge the other skaters evenly or correctly. as pointed out overlook that countries ur's, mistakes due to many skaters.

it is kinda of like the 1 federation judge rule so as not to collude-favor that skater from their country.

 

[kenboy123]

I agree with this comment. I think they should base it on scores. When there are virtually 5 ladies in Russia who can outskate most of the medalists from other countries, I think they should make an exception and go by scores. Can you imagine making the GPF and still missing the World Team. If Med is healthy, there are some very good skaters who will be staying home. Including former World Champion, Tuk.

Even if she isn't healthy or decides not to go or both, there would still be very good skaters left at home...there are so many Russian women that can go to the Olympics if someone decides not to go for whatever reason, either way...there will be a lot of good people left at home regardless because 3 spots is the maximum amount any country can even have (i'm not arguing for or against it), as long as you have that rule, many very good people will be left at home and many "non-factors" will be sent (unless you decrease the number of total entries)

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The way it worked then, a medal would earn three spots for the federation, but the person who won that medal had to be one of them. So if they retired, the spot retired with them.

E.g., Brian Boitano won gold and Debi Thomas won bronze at 1988 Worlds, but the US only got two spots for men and ladies in 1989 because Boitano and Thomas weren't available to take those spots.

Here we're talking about a variation where two (or top two) skaters could earn three spots for the federation by their placements adding up to 13 or less and also if one of them medaled they would get an additional spot for themselves (but no one else could take it if they personally were not available). Theoretically if that applied to all medals, then if one federation swept the podium they would earn three spots for the federation plus three designated spots for those three skaters, for a possible total of six spots for that country, assuming the federation is willing to send six skaters in that discipline and has three skaters besides the reigning medalists who have earned the minimum scores.

If that's too many, then just give the designated spot to the reigning champion and not the silver and bronze medalists.

Thank you for the explanation.

Yeah, I can see the problems that would arise under this proposal if one country got a podium clean sweep. Six slots for one country certainly would not go down well with everybody else.

No, given that this scenario would be possible, I think guaranteeing additional slots for all podium finishers is going a bit too far. Just having a slot for the winner would be sufficient.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[OS]

It is not the system, it is the people - the governance/management of the sport that requires reform. This includes the federations who manages the qualification process.

I wish they make the sport more about the individuals instead of the federations. The federation power is too strong in this sport, there should be a balance. If they make it more about the rivals of individuals instead of the federations, all the competition results and national sporting results I bet you would be quite different.

 

[Miller]

I would have it so that each country gets one slot per discipline subject to TES minimums, then gains additional slots based on Seasons Bests, rather than it all boiling down to 1 competition - thinking just about World Championships here.

Then if a country gets one skater more than a certain amount, say 180 for Ladies, they get an additional spot, 2 or more they get 2 extra spots (you could also have the defending champion getting a bye). That way you still get 2 or 3 spot countries, but not all depending on a single competition. Also it would mean National championships are still very important, something probably very important for skating, as the skaters from a particular country would still need to earn their final places.

This sort of system would help skaters from mid-ranking countries, or were you've got skaters on the rise, whereas now it seems to favour skaters from big skating countries, or small ones where they've got a superstar who can get them extra spots.

For example, to go from 1 spot to 2 you need to get in the Top 10, but when you've got 8 or 9 Japanese, Russian or American skaters in there it can get a bit crowded, and if you don't make it that's another year over. However multiple chances would offer a reasonable incentive to reach the qualifying mark, and maybe help say some of the European countries that are struggling/will be when the current crop of competitive skaters retires. Also if you've got skaters on the rise it would give them a chance to reach the qualifying mark later on than currently occurs, plus it wouldn't be a case of all eggs in one basket if they don't reach the Top 10 at the forthcoming championships.

Finally I would have the Seasons Best qualifying consisting of the entire calendar year prior to next years Championships so that great performances at the previous year's championships are still rewarded.

 

[karne]

You can't make it about scores. You can't. Because all that will mean will be even more scoring crazy than we already get. And who does that benefit? The big countries, of course. Why? Because the big countries control the GP and the championship events.

I am firmly, firmly against any proposal that increases big country spots. That form of proposal only ever hurts the little countries in spite of the protestations of "allowances" and such.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’d love to see everyone who qualifies to the GPF be allowed to compete in the WC every season. No federation tricks though like substituting other skaters to circumvent the process.