Domestic scoring in Russia

[Minz]

Wish there was more of them on this forum. All the Ameicans here want to talk about is Brown, and how Chen is overscored. Now it's Malinin. And I won't even go into Zhou.

If you don't like them, just ignore. Bashing posters is not going to make them stop sharing their opinions, which is something that you also like to do.

 

[lariko]

If you don't like them, just ignore. Bashing posters is not going to make them stop sharing their opinions, which is something that you also like to do.

You know what, @el henry asked me a specific question. I answered. Period.

 

[Minz]

You know what, @el henry asked me a specific question. I answered. Period.

Alright fair. I’m just saying. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[lariko]

Alright fair. I’m just saying. Everyone is entitled to their opinion…

Yes. They are.

 

[icewhite]

I am confused at what Shaidorov has to do with this? He was born in Kazakhstan and has never represented Russia? Yes, he trains in Socchi with Uramov. He moved there to train, just like ice dancers from other countries move to Montreal to train at IAM (Papadakis and Cziseron, Hubbell and Donohue, Fear and Gibson, Smart and Dieck) or some pairs skaters move to Bergamo to train at the centre there (Hocke and Kunkel), or singles skaters move to Obersdorf (Carolina Kostner, Lea Serna, Lukaz Britschgi).

Gubanova probably isn't the best example for this discussion either, as aspects of her skating are more 'European' in style than 'Russian'. She also switched to Georgia well before Russia were banned.

I am bringing up these examples of skaters which have been discussed in this forum as supposedly not being scored fairly due to being Russian or training in Russia. In my eyes they were not scored more or less fairly or unfairly than the majority of skaters and I simply put these opinions down to nationalistic bias and victim's complex. But then I reconsidered in the past days and now I'm wondering if from the perspective of people who listen a lot to Russian commentary they are actually making sense, because they interprete the scoring system differently.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I must have missed something. It turns out that quads are valued by judges only in Russia - what a discovery! This is probably why Jason Brown, with his softest knees combined with a complete lack of quads, was only able to win gold medals in team competitions or in minor tournaments. And Shoma Uno performed five quads and two triple Axels at the 2023 World Championships due to a misunderstanding, by accident. Or were the judges who gave him the gold medal all Russian?

Well, seriously, all the noise about quads, starting in 2018, was in women's single skating. The appearance of Trusova and Shcherbakova, and then Valieva, turned all competitions with their participation into a limited version of the Russian Championship. There were no figure skaters who could compete with them in the USA, Canada, or even Japan (although there was at least some positive dynamics). And it’s not the judges at all, but the fans who have been trying all these years to use talk about soft knees to soften the bitterness of defeat for their favorite athletes.

For two years now there have been no Russian women at the ISU Grand Prix. There are no Russian judges there either. The result, however, was not a triumph of soft knees and deep edges, but a steady regression. Statistical performance indicators for almost all elements this year have worsened even compared to 2022.

 

[Carol1]

Wish there was more of them on this forum. All the Ameicans here want to talk about is Brown, and how Chen is overscored. Now it's Malinin. And I won't even go into Zhou.

I've been an American for over seven decades, and while I like Jason's skating, my favorite male (and female) singles skaters have usually been Japanese. I didn't think Chen was overscored, and I don't have strong feeling about Malinin, although I'm glad his programs and artistry are improving this year. Zhou's skating didn't get my juices flowing, but he seems like a smart young man and I wish him success in life. Does this make me unlike most of the Americans who post here? I sure don't know, but I haven't noticed anything pointing in the opposite direction.

For two years now there have been no Russian women at the ISU Grand Prix. There are no Russian judges there either. The result, however, was not a triumph of soft knees and deep edges, but a steady regression. Statistical performance indicators for almost all elements this year have worsened even compared to 2022.

I don't know what "statistical performance indicators" are, but I've enjoyed the women on the Grand Prix these past two seasons roughly as much as I ever have. I do sometimes think Sakamoto and Levito are overscored, but I'm basically a dope when it comes to technical expertise, so I just try to enjoy and root for almost everyone.

If there are statistical performance indicators that prove the current women have hard knees and shallow edges, I'd be happy to see them and very unlikely to dispute them.

 

[icewhite]

Of course this discussion had to go this way. Why did I even try?
I could try and quote all the posts I read these last weeks that make me think that there are serious differences in how correct scoring is seen, but I don't think it's worth it if people make it about their own agenda anyway.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

If there are statistical performance indicators that prove the current women have hard knees and shallow edges, I'd be happy to see them and very unlikely to dispute them.

no one measures the depth of the edges and the softness of the knees with any numbers. It is for this reason that it is so easy to use these terms to try to disparage some skaters and elevate others. But GOE points are numbers anyway. The meaning of these numbers is determined by the judges, who, among other things, pay attention to both the edges and the knees.

So (as an example), if in 2021 the judges over the course of six Grand Prix stages gave a positive GOE value for 33 out of 63 combinations 3Lz + 3T (52.38%), then in 2022 just 23 out of 49 of these combinations received a positive GOE (46.93%). In 2023, there were 50 3Lz+3T combinations, positive GOE was obtained for 20 of them (40%).

Another example - in 2021, 41 out of 55 3+2 combinations received a positive GOE - that is, 74.54%. In 2022, the number of these relatively simple elements increased to 70; judges gave a positive GOE in 39 cases - 55.71%. In 2023, 79 attempts at 3+2 combinations made, of which 35 - 44.30% had a positive GOE.

In other words, the number of simple elements increases, the number of more complex elements decreases, and the quality of execution invariably decreases. This is a very ominous trend that does not bode well.

In 2022, the ISU “equalized” ordinary cascades and sequences. Paradoxically, in just one year the quality of execution of sequences, which were always considered simpler than similar cascades, also decreased sharply.

 

[snowed]

Of course this discussion had to go this way. Why did I even try?
I could try and quote all the posts I read these last weeks that make me think that there are serious differences in how correct scoring is seen, but I don't think it's worth it if people make it about their own agenda anyway.

For what it's worth, I think you've brought up a valid issue.
I don't watch the Russian competitions, but the Russian speaking fans contributions on this forum seem to confirm your assessment that there is a rift regarding the interpretation of the scoring system, or at least in the public understanding of the scoring system. I'm even wondering if the ISU scoring system is used in Russia? The ISU Component scoring changed significantly 2 years ago, I see strong efforts from (some) international skaters/ choreographers and (some) international judges to implement it.

 

[snowed]

no one measures the depth of the edges and the softness of the knees with any numbers. It is for this reason that it is so easy to use these terms to try to disparage some skaters and elevate others. But GOE points are numbers anyway. The meaning of these numbers is determined by the judges, who, among other things, pay attention to both the edges and the knees.

So (as an example), if in 2021 the judges over the course of six Grand Prix stages gave a positive GOE value for 33 out of 63 combinations 3Lz + 3T (52.38%), then in 2022 just 23 out of 49 of these combinations received a positive GOE (46.93%). In 2023, there were 50 3Lz+3T combinations, positive GOE was obtained for 20 of them (40%).

Another example - in 2021, 41 out of 55 3+2 combinations received a positive GOE - that is, 74.54%. In 2022, the number of these relatively simple elements increased to 70; judges gave a positive GOE in 39 cases - 55.71%. In 2023, 79 attempts at 3+2 combinations made, of which 35 - 44.30% had a positive GOE.

In other words, the number of simple elements increases, the number of more complex elements decreases, and the quality of execution invariably decreases. This is a very ominous trend that does not bode well.

In 2022, the ISU “equalized” ordinary cascades and sequences. Paradoxically, in just one year the quality of execution of sequences, which were always considered simpler than similar cascades, also decreased sharply.

The rules of the judging change (slightly) each year, ISU publishes the new rules at the beginning at each season. For example I remember the q is a more recent deduction. This makes comparisons of GEO between seasons complicated, so the difference you see may be not a decrease in quality of skating.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

For what it's worth, I think you've brought up a valid issue.
I don't watch the Russian competitions, but the Russian speaking fans contributions on this forum seem to confirm your assessment that there is a rift regarding the interpretation of the scoring system, or at least in the public understanding of the scoring system. I'm even wondering if the ISU scoring system is used in Russia? The ISU Component scoring changed significantly 2 years ago, I see strong efforts from (some) international skaters/ choreographers and (some) international judges to implement it.

I don't think there is any split. In Russia, it is customary to immediately follow all changes that the ISU doing. Last year, ISU judges began to evaluate the sequence of steps more strictly - and the same thing began in Russia. However, this season the ISU judges are not very consistent in this regard - either they give everyone a level 4, then they become strict again. In Russia, strictess largely continue. If we talk about the PCS, favoritism and the desire to reward an athlete for previous merits are still noticeable both in the ISU and in Russia

 

[Alex Fedorov]

The rules of the judging change (slightly) each year, ISU publishes the new rules at the beginning at each season. For example I remember the q is a more recent deduction. This makes comparisons of GEO between seasons complicated, so the difference you see may be not a decrease in quality of skating.

The q mark was already applied in 2021, and the consequences were approximately the same - negative GOE in most cases. Since 2021, the rules for evaluating the jump sequence have changed, and the requirements for spins and step sequences have increased. In addition, the requirements for wrong/unclear edge on lutz and flip should have been increased - but in practice I do not see any noticeable changes when evaluating these jumps.

 

[FlossieH]

Of course this discussion had to go this way. Why did I even try?
I could try and quote all the posts I read these last weeks that make me think that there are serious differences in how correct scoring is seen, but I don't think it's worth it if people make it about their own agenda anyway.

As an outsider looking in, I would agree with you that Russia appears to value jumps over other aspects of skating - but that is just the impression I have. I have never followed the Russian domestic scene and I cannot speak Russian, so have no idea what their commentators, media or public say. I have seen translated comments from girls from the Tutberidze camp saying that it is better to rotate a quad and fall rather than having a clean skate without one.

 

[lariko]

I am not sure how it's absent, because so many Russian programs follow personalities and even texts (Vetlugin, Lukin and Popov were doing it last year already, Aliev picked one this year). Mozalev went as far as having short and free this year that are part 1 and part 2 of the same story. Ugozhaev is really great at that as well. Murav'eva is one hell of a storyteller, so are Frolova and Gorbacheva. In pairs, B/K always act out everything and Ch/Ya or B/P are getting there too.

Yes, they use a lot of Western music, but some of it has been ingrained into national consciousness over the years and this specific season, more and more skates are done to either Russian music or stuff like Italian pop from the 80s or French music that has a special place in Russian pop culture and mind. There was also one exceptionally good choice of music in Jr. dance that used Northern Indiginous (to Russia) fusion music. Basically, Russians still have far too many Queen and Cathedrals, but they are pursuing domestic market and tastes a big time.

You can call big upper body moves funny all you want, I love it. It's designed to send the mood and energy across the whole stadium and it works fairly well when people come with the open mind, not prejudiced.

I am not going to comment on any kind of prospects internationally, because there is zero indications it will ever happen, but I prefer how they do things and judge in Russia, save for one big exception.

Oh, forgot to mention Mukhortova/Evgen'ev stay in character non-stop, all the way to the K&C. Once (and hopefully if) Kostornaya drills in pair elements, Kostornaya/Kunitza will be able to serve plenty of storytelling and drama. Kostornaya

 

[lariko]

As an outsider looking in, I would agree with you that Russia appears to value jumps over other aspects of skating - but that is just the impression I have. I have never followed the Russian domestic scene and I cannot speak Russian, so have no idea what their commentators, media or public say. I have seen translated comments from girls from the Tutberidze camp saying that it is better to rotate a quad and fall rather than having a clean skate without one.

Not quite, but a senior quad helps a great deal to advance in men, and any ultra-c even in training helps the women to get noticed among the crowded field.

But there are skaters without senior quad, like Kolyada, Aliev, Vetlugin in senior men who scored high with less, than guys with more. Petrova, Morozova are getting just high scores in junior women without (so far) ultra-c in competition. Frolova, Kulikova and Sinitzina compete in senior women without ultra-c and are scoring high.

I find Katsalapov's commentary on dance interesting because he says unexpected things in terms of what he likes and doesn't like. Just like Kolyada, great choice of commentators. And, like Tran'kov and Tikhonov don't seem to miss anything from chemistry to features to number of rotations in the spiral...

Russian judges are actually going medieval on the step sequences in the past 2 years, and, like, only truly exceptional sequences get level 4.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Of course this discussion had to go this way. Why did I even try?
I could try and quote all the posts I read these last weeks that make me think that there are serious differences in how correct scoring is seen, but I don't think it's worth it if people make it about their own agenda anyway.

Nobody is making an agenda, i didn't watch the performances, i've just checked the scores. Frolova and Sinitsina won their competitons with a 'low BV', so if you are saying that some judges in Russia reward skaters for jumping quads that is simply not truth... You can just compare the base value of the skaters to their overall scores, and in relation with the other scoring sheets in other competitions, if you really want to do a 'statistical comparison'... I really don't see any difference, except for the fact that BV of Russian skaters tends to be generally higher across the board. And nobody is 'judging' the base value, it's a score you get on your paper per se, when you (try to) perform more complicated elements defined by the system everyone is using...

 

[Mathman]

I have seen translated comments from girls from the Tutberidze camp saying that it is better to rotate a quad and fall rather than having a clean skate without one.

I don't think that this is just Tuberidze giving her girls a pep talk, though. A fully rotated quad Sal is worth 9.70, compared to 4.30 for a triple. Even if you lose 5 points in GOE and take a fall deduction, you are barely worse off for having taken the risk, plus there is no guarantee that you won't mess up the triple.

And there is the "no guts, no glory" factor. Both judges and fans appreciate athletes that pull out all the stops and go for broke -- all the while skating with elegance and grace, of course.

 

[TallyT]

I have seen translated comments from girls from the Tutberidze camp saying that it is better to rotate a quad and fall rather than having a clean skate without one.

Been like that both in Russia and everywhere since at least 2015 if not earlier.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Skating to bursting the aorta (na razmakh) is something that they value too, skating with feeling, 'cause value passionate nature.

Oooo so that's what that means. I swear I hear Russian commentators say it all the time and always wondered!

It also explains Mark K's popularity, his style is wild, but he throws everything into his programs.