Domestic scoring in Russia | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Domestic scoring in Russia

Magill

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Sep 23, 2020
So if I'm correct, the gist is that the culture of the country the judge is from will influence how the interpret the IJS? That's probably true. But I don't think that can be changed. Because who's really 'right'? How do you even determine that? And those biases would still be there.


Though perhaps it's actually a good thing? A variety of viewpoints and stuff?
That's probably true, but I do not think it good or inevitable. What I long for is a scoring system that incorporates different cultural angles on performance and PCS, and judges who are trained accordingly to be able to go beyond the limits of their own cultural background so that e.g. Japanese skaters do not feel forced to comply with the Anglo-Saxon take on "emoting" or "connecting to the audience" to gain points in a manner which is just foreign to their own culture. This cultural favouritism is just so outdated in the world in which diversity, pluralism and respect for differences are the values which matter most.
And, no, I do not think matching PCS with TES is a cultural difference. I think it is just wrong against the current scoring guidelines and simply erroneous judging favouring skaters with big jumps and actually pushing skaters to go for big jumps to maximize points.
 
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icewhite

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Dec 7, 2022
That's probably true, but I do not think it good or inevitable. What I long for is a scoring system that incorporates different cultural angles on performance and PCS, and judges who are trained accordingly to be able to go beyond the limits of their own cultural background so that e.g. Japanese skaters do not feel forced to comply with the Anglo-Saxon take on "emoting" or "connecting to the audience" to gain points in a manner which is just foreign to their own culture. This cultural favouritism is just so outdated in the world in which diversity, pluralism and respect for differences are the values which matter most.
And, no, I do not think matching PCS with TES is a cultural difference. I think it is just wrong against the current scoring guidelines and simply erroneous judging favouring skaters with big jumps and actually pushing skaters to go for big jumps to maximize points.

I especially agree so much with this.
 

Mariott

Now the flower is making its way through concrete
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I especially agree so much with this.
I absolutely agree. You can't ignore the fact that in some parts of the world the ideal of a young man is modest, obedient, not showing his personality, not talking about his feelings (this applies to Asia as a whole). In other parts of the world, bright, able to show themselves, people with a bright personality are more valued. This cannot help but affect the presentation of any material by an athlete. Compare the presentation of classical music by the same Kostornaya (with her terrible character, but absolute brightness on the ice) and any Korean figure skater. The Russian viewer falls asleep at the first seconds of the Korean woman's performance because it is not bright enough for them. Perhaps for people who grew up in a different culture, on the contrary, such a spectacle is a kind of cultural benchmark, and Kostornaya's dance to Vivaldi is too assertive, while the American style may seem too rough. Those are differences, that's what it is, and you can't just ignore it.
 

DancingCactus

Final Flight
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Jan 17, 2022
Sounds like a lot of stereotypes to me.
There might be some cultural differences, but putting the whole of Asia into one category is weird.
And artists often differ from what "the ideal" is supposed to be anyway. I can come up with so many counter examples from Japanese pop culture and even from figure skating. Daisuke,Yuzu, Shizuka, Kaori, Satoko, Kazuki are skaters that come to mind immediately, who have a strong connection to the audience and are very expressive and individual skaters. Shoma reflects the music with his whole body.

I grant you, I almost fall asleep during most Korean women's performances this season too, but that is personal taste, not cultural differences.
 

Mariott

Now the flower is making its way through concrete
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Sounds like a lot of stereotypes to me.
There might be some cultural differences, but putting the whole of Asia into one category is weird.

Stereotypes or not, it's there. Of course, fans and judges have their own ideas of what a figure skater should be. Skaters and his team also have a certain stereotype of what a skater should be. These ideas do not always coincide. This is normal, we are all different, especially we are all products of our own special culture. I think it's strange to ignore that

I grant you, I almost fall asleep during most Korean women's performances this season too, but that is personal taste, not cultural differences.

It's not just you, many people have this reaction.

Daisuke,Yuzu, Shizuka, Kaori, Satoko, Kazuki are skaters that come to mind immediately, who have a strong connection to the audience and are very expressive and individual skaters. Shoma reflects the music with his whole body.
These skaters with the vibrant personalities on ice. They worked hard at it. That's probably why we talk about geniuses or at any rate outstanding athletes.
Initially, the discussion was about athletes in general, as I understand it, some average and high, but not top level. That is, at the highest level Russian men can show the beauty of choreography, and Japanese athletes find ways of emotional interaction with the audience. But when judges evaluate middle and simply high level skaters, do their personal perceptions related to the culture of their country influence their evaluations? Most likely yes, because these perceptions are part of the human experience.
 
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Magill

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Sep 23, 2020
Daisuke,Yuzu, Shizuka, Kaori, Satoko, Kazuki are skaters that come to mind immediately, who have a strong connection to the audience and are very expressive and individual skaters. Shoma reflects the music with his whole body.
But exactly, obviously they are just great in channeling emotions and connecting to the audience, no doubt about that. And audiences respond to that in a huge way, no doubt about that. Yet despite, because they use sometimes different means of expression which in many cases is culture related, they do not tick all the boxes in the PCS scoring system, or rather some judges' minds, which I also know for a fact. That's what I meant by adjusting the scoring system guidelines to be more inclusive for different ways of stage presence which are culture / stage-tradition related. I never meant to say they lack connection to their audience or do not express or excite emotions, quite the opposite.
 

DancingCactus

Final Flight
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Jan 17, 2022
Hm, but do you have examples of some "culture based differences" that might not tick all the boxes?
And we also have to distinguish between a "cultural expression" someone from another culture maybe doesn't get and someone who is actually just not very good at expressing anything. In the case of some of the Koreans, I suspect it's not their culture, they just have boring choreo and maybe are a bit shy.

I think in case of non-top level skaters the latter applies more often. It's not that judges from other cultures don't understand them based on their cultural expectations, they just aren't top level artists even in their own culture. Thus, they get lower PCS.
 

Mariott

Now the flower is making its way through concrete
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Hm, but do you have examples of some "culture based differences" that might not tick all the boxes?
And we also have to distinguish between a "cultural expression" someone from another culture maybe doesn't get and someone who is actually just not very good at expressing anything.
Let me give you an example from a country with which you do not have such a close connection as Japan, since apparently my mentioning it makes you repulsed and eager to argue. Let's focus on a more neutral example. Elizabeth Tursynbaeva (Kazakhstan, Asia) is a telling example. I still consider the staging of the free program of the 2019 season for Elisabeth unsuccessful precisely in terms of not understanding cultural differences. She was set to tango, tango is a music that implies engagement, passion. Elizabeth is from a country where a girl should "keep a face", be sweet and reserved, modest and beautiful, but not show character and passion, emotion. She is musical, she shows beauty of gesture, choreographic training and even opens up a bit on the steps of the sequence (but again, it's the sincere joy of a successful roll and the feeling of support from the audience), but she doesn't show what I would call immersion, storytelling, passion. It's not what we expect from a performance of tango on ice. In the eyes of a person of Western culture, of course. From the point of view of a person of Eastern culture everything can be quite different, and the main thing is beauty, airiness, elegance and restraint, and emotions are not a necessary element at all.



I think in case of non-top level skaters the latter applies more often. It's not that judges from other cultures don't understand them based on their cultural expectations, they just aren't top level artists even in their own culture. Thus, they get lower PCS.​

I'm not talking about completely weak athletes, there's nothing to argue about. I'm talking about those who are, how should I say it, sports idols in their own country, and yet the international audience does not share this opinion. Each of the Korean figure skaters whose rides we fall asleep to has tons of fans, and that's no joke, I could appreciate it in the broadcast chats.
 
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lariko

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Jan 31, 2019
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Canada
It also explains Mark K's popularity, his style is wild, but he throws everything into his programs.
Mark-specific compliment is 'na courage'--or at least he gets it more often than anyone else, because, well, he is Mark. It does not actually mean 'courage', more like Geronimo/Hell or High Water attitude. Again, part of the national character, when you cover yourself with a sign of a cross and rush into something dumb and grand without considering odds.
 

DancingCactus

Final Flight
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Jan 17, 2022
Let me give you an example from a country with which you do not have such a close connection as Japan, since apparently my mentioning it makes you repulsed and eager to argue
Just because I don't accept sweeping opinions about a culture I'm somewhat knowledgable about, doesn't mean I want to "argue". It just means I don't accept your argument as true. I hate it when people from one cultural beackground just get lumped together as if they're all made from the same mold an not able to have deviating personalities.

Also, yes, for tango you have to show passion. It's kind of a core part of the concept I guess? And if you can't do it properly, maybe it isn't for you? Again, this doesn'Ttmean that all people from Argentina are able to do the tango passionately or that another girl from Kazahstan wouldn't be able to do it right.

But I guess we can start a whole discusssion about what we think are influences of culture and what is just a person's personality. Or how to separate that.
 

lariko

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Canada
I grant you, I almost fall asleep during most Korean women's performances this season too, but that is personal taste, not cultural differences.
I always snoozed through Scherbakova's skates. Not every Russian woman is Trusova. On the other hand, no problems connecting with Uno. Both were scored high by Russian judges.

I actually always preferred Koreans to Japanese women, and C. Kim is definitely my favorite now.
 

icewhite

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Dec 7, 2022
Hm, but do you have examples of some "culture based differences" that might not tick all the boxes?
And we also have to distinguish between a "cultural expression" someone from another culture maybe doesn't get and someone who is actually just not very good at expressing anything. In the case of some of the Koreans, I suspect it's not their culture, they just have boring choreo and maybe are a bit shy.

I think in case of non-top level skaters the latter applies more often. It's not that judges from other cultures don't understand them based on their cultural expectations, they just aren't top level artists even in their own culture. Thus, they get lower PCS.

I think this constant ask for extensive facial expressions is a cultural thing. There are always differences in people's personalities of course, but I think it's no question that this is much more a thing in some regions of the world.
 

icewhite

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Dec 7, 2022
But whatever. I would love to hear more opinions or observations about my original thesis.
So, people mostly think it's no problem?
 

readernick

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Dec 5, 2015
And, no, I do not think matching PCS with TES is a cultural difference. I think it is just wrong against the current scoring guidelines and simply erroneous judging favouring skaters with big jumps and actually pushing skaters to go for big jumps to maximize points.
I think this kind of sums it up. Maybe, Russian coaches, fans, and judges do value good flow, edges, and glide less than some other countries and give high TES skaters high PCS. ( This is a problem hardly restricted to Russia only) but such a view is wrong regardless of individual opinion because the bullet points clearly show PCS should not be linked to TES in this way.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that Russians see any less value in skating skills and performance qualities than anyone else. Trusova, for instance, never got PCSs like Shcherbakova despite being the original quadling. plus she skated with Russia fire in her belly.

About cultural influences, my opinion is that this is subtle and, point-wise, not a very important consideration when it comes to who wins a skating contest. Hanyu's Seimei program obviously will have greater meaning to Japanese audiences than elsewhere, but still, everyone connected to skating acknowledges this program as among the very finest ever skated.

Patrick Chan's Take Five, to the definitive "cool jazz" tune of the 1950s, wonderfully captures the spirit of the "cool dude" that is so popular in North American folk culture. People who are not into coolness, well, they probably don't think the program has a theme at all.

Michelle Kwan's choreographers tried to have it both ways. She never skated to music with an east Asian theme, but she did play up the "exotic beauty" that Americans and Europeans associate with the Middle East -- Salome, Scheherazade, The Felling Begins. It worked for her (although she was far more popular in the U.S. than internationally).
 

icewhite

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Dec 7, 2022
I don't think that Russians see any less value in skating skills and performance qualities than anyone else. Trusova, for instance, never got PCSs like Shcherbakova despite being the original quadling. plus she skated with Russia fire in her belly.

About cultural influences, my opinion is that this is subtle and, point-wise, not a very important consideration when it comes to who wins a skating contest. Hanyu's Seimei program obviously will have greater meaning to Japanese audiences than elsewhere, but still, everyone connected to skating acknowledges this program as among the very finest ever skated.

Patrick Chan's Take Five, to the definitive "cool jazz" tune of the 1950s, wonderfully captures the spirit of the "cool dude" that is so popular in North American folk culture. People who are not into coolness, well, they probably don't think the program has a theme at all.

Michelle Kwan's choreographers tried to have it both ways. She never skated to music with an east Asian theme, but she did play up the "exotic beauty" that Americans and Europeans associate with the Middle East -- Salome, Scheherazade, The Felling Begins. It worked for her (although she was far more popular in the U.S. than internationally).

I tried to answer you, but then I realized I'm just repeating myself. Did you see the current domestic Russian competitions and the way the arguments for lower or higher scores/PCS go here?
I also tried to differentiate between different aspects of "artistry" that are valued or not valued.

No doubt there are and always have been differences between the ways different programs are perceived. I cannot really relate to the sweet glittery ice princess stuff and often feel much more at home with some of the Scandinavian's girls dresses, which are often more understated, black, have much less flowy and instead more edgy forms for instance. Probably a reason I loved Kaori's dresses for Matrix and her JJ so much, while her much appreciated dresses of this season leave me cold. There's likely often also a huge generational aspect in there.

And I do get that, when countries have a certain type of skater at the top they start to value and over-emphasize their qualities, while playing down other aspects, no matter in which country that happens.

Yet... like I said, I am talking about something more decisive/dividing here. And I don't know how a sport can deal with that, when the rules are understood so fundamentally different. But, since nobody else seems to see a big problem there, maybe I'm overestimating the topic.
 

Alex Fedorov

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Nov 12, 2021
Country
Russia
I don't think that Russians see any less value in skating skills and performance qualities than anyone else. Trusova, for instance, never got PCSs like Shcherbakova despite being the original quadling. plus she skated with Russia fire in her belly.
In Russia, at domestic competitions, judges are traditionally generous to leaders, and this also applies to PCS points. And Sasha Trusova at the Russian Championships 2021 and 2022 received more PCS points than at the Olympics. Probably, such facts give rise to ideas about some kind of split in judging. But in this case, what is important is not the value of the PCS itself, but the ratio of the PCS of Trusova, Shcherbakova, Valieva and (at the 2021 championship) the PCS of Usacheva, for example. Comparing these numbers, it is not difficult to discover that Trusova's PCS is significantly less than Valieva's or Shcherbakova's PCS and is very close to Usacheva's PCS - despite the fact that Daria did not have quads or 3A. In other words, there is no direct connection between jumping content and PCS in Russian judging.

There is a completely different phenomenon - the federation, apparently, pre-determines the list of the most desirable candidates for participation in the main competitions of the season (in 2021-22, this was, of course, the Olympics) and after this the judges tried to “legalize” this behind-the-scenes decision by generously handing out points PCS for certain athletes at domestic competitions. There is, of course, nothing good in this approach - although for the sake of fairness it should be noted that the federation does select the objectively best.

Cultural differences are a complex topic. But, on the other hand, it is not difficult to remember that Zagitova and Medvedeva are very popular in Japan, and Shcherbakova became known there, probably even earlier than in Russia. Meanwhile, the cultures of Russia and Japan are absolutely different; it is difficult to imagine an even more significant dissimilarity.
 

TT_Fin

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Well, it is not just Russian. Throughout the times national scoring has often been more kind in many countries than international in many countries and is has been also discussed here sometimes, maybe at national threads. If you check some results from nationals and contents of the program, you can find them. If lucky, you can find also some of those performances. I don't know if the bases is to want to get top skaters's scores better at international comps, but IMO it does not have much affect. Maybe during past years it has been not so big difference than in the past.
 
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