Eating Disorders among men in skating: Shawn Sawyer, Joe Johnson, Sean Rabbitt speak out

[el henry]

It is so frustrating how skaters will internalize the weight issue, men and women. From the interview with Shawn Sawyer linked in post 9:

At the time, when he didn't make his jumps or when his performance was not up to snuff, Shawn blamed his weight. He believed he had not done enough. And when he succeeded, he attributed his success to weight loss. (original in French, translation mine).

 

[CoyoteChris]

Oh, now I'm thinking I should separate out the Shawn from the Jessica to talk about the men. (Ice Rabbit also mentioned Joe Johnson in another thread).

I will need to listen to the Sean Rabbitt podcast with Polina (I will be honest, I have listened to other Polina podcasts with my favs, and I get frustrated: Jason can talk over Polina, Andrew T. not so much .) But I am a huge Sean fan and so sorry he also dealt with this

Boy, I am glad YOU said that about Polina! LOL! Actually, I just get frustrated being old. When Polina interviewed Ting, I think I just get frustrated with the way young people talk today...like, you know?

 

[noskates]

Johnny Weir talked about eating a tomato for dinner. I think there has always been an emphasis on the ladies and their weight when, in fact, as much in this thread supports, the men have been equally challenged unless their genetics enabled a slim body type. I do know that the slimmer a skater is the quicker they seem to rotate.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I do know that the slimmer a skater is the quicker they seem to rotate.

I think this gets to the root of the problem, which is that disordered eating helps with the technical elements most valued in the judging system. As long as the sport continues to encourage more difficult jumps, I don't see how this problem doesn't get worse.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I think this gets to the root of the problem, which is that disordered eating helps with the technical elements most valued in the judging system. As long as the sport continues to encourage more difficult jumps, I don't see how this problem doesn't get worse.

To be fair, some girls like Polina Tsurskaya and Karen Chen had/have underrotation issues, despite their physiques being fairly typical for modern ladies' singles skaters. For them it looks like a technique issue (great jump height but delayed start to rotation). On the other hand, many of the current ladies who do 3A/quads are muscular compact skaters like Rika Kihira, Alexandra Trusova, Liza Tuktamysheva. They aren't built obviously different from many others in the field, so I guess again it's about technique (and strength).

I think the most important thing is for coaches and skaters to emphasize technique and to take an approach that works for their own individual body type - short or tall, ecto- or mesomorphic. Looking at e.g. Keegan Messing and Roman Sadovsky, both are very different in build but they jump the same jumps (aside from the 4T vs 4S). And if you saw Nathan Chen on the street, nothing about his appearance would give away the fact that he can do 5 quads in a long programme.

 

[gliese]

I think this gets to the root of the problem, which is that disordered eating helps with the technical elements most valued in the judging system. As long as the sport continues to encourage more difficult jumps, I don't see how this problem doesn't get worse.

I'm not sure about this:
Disordered eating = less muscle = less jump height = less time to rotate = has to rotate faster = more disordered eating
Eating/fueling properly = more muscle = more jump height = more time to rotate = much less pressure to be a rotation machine

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm not sure about this:
Disordered eating = less muscle = less jump height = less time to rotate = has to rotate faster = more disordered eating

This is not the case for a lot of skaters who struggle with this, most notably Gracie. Nothing from her performances or athletic ability at her peak would have given away that she suffered from disordered eating.

 

[SpiffySpiders]

It's overly optimistic to say a sport is always easier with proper nutrition because muscles=better performance. That isn't necessarily so.

There are sports, and skating is one of them, where it often helps to have less weight to move around against gravity. Road cyclists, for example, tend to be very skinny at the elite level these days if they are climbers rather than sprinters. The ones who specialise in racing away from the field in the mountains want as little body mass as possible to haul up those steep inclines. If you see a big, muscular rider pulling away from the pack in the mountains they are likely doped. Well ok, a good number of them, skinny and built, are doped anyway but that's a different discussion... and one that is part of every sport at the elite level to some degree.

I've been doing some thinking about figure skating in recent weeks. I don't think I like this sport anymore. I watch primarily for the big jumps and tricky to pull off complex choreography, not for the artistry. Even when I skated a bit myself, I prefered jumping to interpreting emotions on ice. That has never interested me much. What I love about the sport directly contributes to disordered eating. Stripped of that element, skating culture is still a soul-crushing mix of helplessness (being at the mercy of often confusing judging panels who offer 'advice' such as lose weight) and constant judgements about physical appearance, dedication and how much is spent on "packaging" that all encourages disordered eating and other mental illness. Many coaches talk the way they do because it's how they were trained and, even if they hated it, it worked for them so they tend to ignore efforts to change the culture. Some of them even started out trying a more compassionate style but slid back into old habits as the pressure to produce results grew. That pressure comes from not only federations but parents and students themselves.

I don't know, as someone who doesn't admire strict gender roles - my parents raised me without any gendered expectations or toys or clothes - there's so much about the emphasis on costumes and makeup and hair that grates on me. The way snide comments are made about men who look too feminine or too much like a "truck driver" and about girls with "chunky" legs or who don't skate to feminine music leaves me questioning why I'm watching at all. I'm not interested in being part of a gossipy catty chat club but figure skating seems to attract that and a lot of the fans consider it a feature, not a flaw.

 

[gliese]

It's overly optimistic to say a sport is always easier with proper nutrition because muscles=better performance. That isn't necessarily so.

There are sports, and skating is one of them, where it often helps to have less weight to move around against gravity. Road cyclists, for example, tend to be very skinny at the elite level these days if they are climbers rather than sprinters. The ones who specialise in racing away from the field in the mountains want as little body mass as possible to haul up those steep inclines. If you see a big, muscular rider pulling away from the pack in the mountains they are likely doped. Well ok, a good number of them, skinny and built, are doped anyway but that's a different discussion... and one that is part of every sport at the elite level to some degree.

There's a difference between adequate muscle to jump and being so bulky it holds you down. There's a balance and for some athletes it's difficult to find. It is very difficult to maintain the amount of muscle needed for skating for long periods of time without eating enough food, specifically protein and carbs.

Look at all the current girls with the huge jumps. They might be thin, but the have lots of muscle in their legs. It might not look like a lot, but it is.

Edit: Not to mention there are better ways to lose weight than a literal starvation diet.

 

[el henry]

It's overly optimistic to say a sport is always easier with proper nutrition because muscles=better performance. That isn't necessarily so.

There are sports, and skating is one of them, where it often helps to have less weight to move around against gravity. Road cyclists, for example, tend to be very skinny at the elite level these days if they are climbers rather than sprinters. The ones who specialise in racing away from the field in the mountains want as little body mass as possible to haul up those steep inclines. If you see a big, muscular rider pulling away from the pack in the mountains they are likely doped. Well ok, a good number of them, skinny and built, are doped anyway but that's a different discussion... and one that is part of every sport at the elite level to some degree.

I've been doing some thinking about figure skating in recent weeks. I don't think I like this sport anymore. I watch primarily for the big jumps and tricky to pull off complex choreography, not for the artistry. Even when I skated a bit myself, I prefered jumping to interpreting emotions on ice. That has never interested me much. What I love about the sport directly contributes to disordered eating. Stripped of that element, skating culture is still a soul-crushing mix of helplessness (being at the mercy of often confusing judging panels who offer 'advice' such as lose weight) and constant judgements about physical appearance, dedication and how much is spent on "packaging" that all encourages disordered eating and other mental illness. Many coaches talk the way they do because it's how they were trained and, even if they hated it, it worked for them so they tend to ignore efforts to change the culture. Some of them even started out trying a more compassionate style but slid back into old habits as the pressure to produce results grew. That pressure comes from not only federations but parents and students themselves.

I don't know, as someone who doesn't admire strict gender roles - my parents raised me without any gendered expectations or toys or clothes - there's so much about the emphasis on costumes and makeup and hair that grates on me. The way snide comments are made about men who look too feminine or too much like a "truck driver" and about girls with "chunky" legs or who don't skate to feminine music leaves me questioning why I'm watching at all. I'm not interested in being part of a gossipy catty chat club but figure skating seems to attract that and a lot of the fans consider it a feature, not a flaw.

Thank you for a detailed analysis, but I am wondering how much of the "packaging" and "gender typical" commentary truly exists any more, at least among the judges.

I am almost the complete opposite for what I like best in figure skating: I love the artistry and performance and spins and choreo and step sequences. Even in 1971, although I appreciated the "tricks" as Uncle Dick would call them, they were never the highlight for me. I don't follow the ladies precisely because racing from element to element, throwing in random movements, and then jumping some more does not interest me as much, and surprisingly, the men appear to do less of that. If I criticize a lady skater for presentation, it has zippo to do with her hairstyle and everything to do with whether she appears to even know that music is playing, and if so, how the music is related to her movements.

As for gender stereotyping, again, the men are my main source of reference. I certainly remember commentary about my beloved Toller that was simply veiled homophobia, even if I could not label it as such at the time. And looking back on it, another favorite of mine, Christopher Bowman, was promoted not just because he was Bowman the Showman, but because he "appeared" heterosexual in presentation.

I truly do not see that now, at least in judging. After all, our present day GOAT, Yuzuru Hanyu, can hardly be labeled as stereotypical anything gendered. And I love what the Japanese men bring with bling and feathers and costumes. I see no signs that *judges* are dinging them for that. Or any of the men, whether they present as traditionally masculine or otherwise. Of course, any random person can comment any way they like.

To bring it back to our topic, two of my favorite skaters (male) would certainly be considered slender compared to the general population. But slender with muscles and with speed and with strength that comes from proper nutrition and proper training. I can still take pleasure in watching them.

 

[moonvine]

I think this gets to the root of the problem, which is that disordered eating helps with the technical elements most valued in the judging system. As long as the sport continues to encourage more difficult jumps, I don't see how this problem doesn't get worse.

I would disagree that disordered eating helps with technical elements. For awhile maybe but If a person doesn’t eat for long enough their jumps won’t be there anymore. Gracie has talked about how at a certain point she was still being praised for losing weight but her skating was getting worse. I think Safesport should make training in recognizing disordered eating mandatory and these skaters should be working with nutritionists.

 

[moonvine]

This is not the case for a lot of skaters who struggle with this, most notably Gracie. Nothing from her performances or athletic ability at her peak would have given away that she suffered from disordered eating.

She’s definitely said at least once (and perhaps more than once since I’ve listened to every podcast she’s done) that past a certain point she was not skating as well because she didn’t have the strength to get the jumps rotated but was still being praised for continuing to lose weight.

 

[noskates]

Wellllllllllll - I think the coaches should be held accountable initially. I wish I could remember the exact quote from Ashley Wagner but it had to do with her eating something and worried about what Frank would say or think. Clearly a coach should want their skater to be healthy and "look" good. But when does looking good outweigh (no pun intended) being healthy? I do think there are coaches who will demand/require anything that will push their skaters to the top of the podium. And where are the parents in all of this? Do they want their child to win so badly that they'll turn the other cheek? I had a rugby player who was always trying to gain weight so the issue is going to vary from sport to sport. But in a sport such as figure skating where physical presentation is all-important, eating disorders probably aren't going away.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I would disagree that disordered eating helps with technical elements. For awhile maybe but If a person doesn’t eat for long enough their jumps won’t be there anymore. Gracie has talked about how at a certain point she was still being praised for losing weight but her skating was getting worse. I think Safesport should make training in recognizing disordered eating mandatory and these skaters should be working with nutritionists.

I don't think starving yourself and disordered eating is necessarily the same thing. You need a certain number of daily calories to survive, so it's not like the skaters are eating nothing. I actually don't recall Gracie struggling to rotate jumps in competition, or lacking the energy to complete her programs successfully, in 2016 or before. Julia L also completed numerous 7 triple LPs while struggling with this.

 

[el henry]

I don't think starving yourself and disordered eating is necessarily the same thing. You need a certain number of daily calories to survive, so it's not like the skaters are eating nothing. I actually don't recall Gracie struggling to rotate jumps in competition, or lacking the energy to complete her programs successfully, in 2016 or before. Julia L also completed numerous 7 triple LPs while struggling with this.

This may be an interpretation issue? I don't think anyone is talking about literal starving to death when they talk about a skater starving themselves, at least I would not be.

Many male skaters have talked about not eating anything all day (Dice Murakami, Shawn Sawyer, I believe Adam Rippon said at one point he was eating an apple).

If all you eat is an apple a day, I would use the term "starving yourself". And at some point, that impacts performance more than it helps. And even if it God forbid "helps" jumps, it should never be permitted.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I would disagree that disordered eating helps with technical elements. For awhile maybe but If a person doesn’t eat for long enough their jumps won’t be there anymore. Gracie has talked about how at a certain point she was still being praised for losing weight but her skating was getting worse. I think Safesport should make training in recognizing disordered eating mandatory and these skaters should be working with nutritionists.

Depending on the "school" they are in, they may or may not work with a nutritionist. Gadbois and Tom Z's skaters are two skating "schools" that do. I do agree that all should.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This may be an interpretation issue? I don't think anyone is talking about literal starving to death when they talk about a skater starving themselves, at least I would not be.

Many male skaters have talked about not eating anything all day (Dice Murakami, Shawn Sawyer, I believe Adam Rippon said at one point he was eating an apple).

If all you eat is an apple a day, I would use the term "starving yourself". And at some point, that impacts performance more than it helps. And even if it God forbid "helps" jumps, it should never be permitted.

Starving yourself is disordered eating, but disordered eating includes other practices in addition to starving yourself.

 

[gliese]

Starving yourself is disordered eating, but disordered eating includes other practices in addition to starving yourself.

This. There's way more to it. Most people who have disordered eating don't starve themselves (even within those with eating disorders, anorexia is one of the least common). Overeating regularly is disordered eating. Binging is disordered eating. Binging then purging is disordered eating. Obsessing over eating healthy is disordered eating.

Thank you for mentioning this. I have always assumed that this was common knowledge, but the general public doesn't really get much education about eating disorders or disordered eating in school (even in health class), it's kind of something you have to research yourself if you want to learn about it which is kind of sad.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

In part of a recent long interview, Elizaveta Khudaiberdieva recently mentioned her personal experience and opinions regarding eating disorders in skating. I've copied and pasted some parts that might be of interest here:

Source: https://fs-gossips.com/elizaveta-kh...see-anything-of-this-behind-the-glossy-cover/

Have you ever had any complexes?

Elizaveta Khudaiberdieva: I have. Weight is my main story. In fact, I am preparing a large project in the form of a monologue. I am looking for girls who are also ready to talk about their experiences. I think someday it will come back to me that I am so brave, but so far I have nothing to lose. And while I’m young, I’m not afraid of anything. I don’t want to be silent.

Now I’m trying to contain my surprise and bewilderment, to be honest, but … weight? Lisa, you have always been very slim.

Elizaveta Khudaiberdieva: Many people write to me, they say you are slim, you cannot have any complexes with that. As if there is no excess weight, then everything is ok. I developed an unhealthy attitude towards food. At one point, I was eating 150 calories a day. I got up on the scales ten times a day.

150 calories (equivalent – about two large bananas. ed”) ???

Elizaveta Khudaiberdieva: Yes. There is no need to weigh the dancer often, because we are not so dependent on the extra hundred grams, we do not have jumps. For us, the problem is two kilograms, for example. But it is better to focus on appearance, rather than numbers. And the stress of constant weighing is insane.

In one team, for example, I watched the scene, as they say to the girl, touching her shoulder: “You arms got fat”. I see these girls later. I see how they count calories, how they try to eat on the sly somewhere, because they are shy to eat in front of everyone. How they look for mirrors everywhere and check how they look there. They touch their belly all the time to see if it sticks out. Hold their breath next to the coach. I just want to shout about it, because you can’t see anything of this behind the glossy cover. And health and psyche cannot be returned. I’ll never be the same, let’s say. I can go into remission, but I will never get rid of my problems against the background of an unhealthy relationship with food.

[...]

Closing the topic of weight and nutritional problems, tell me who is to blame for this and how can this be fixed?

Elizaveta Khudaiberdieva: The system is to blame. Skaters work with coaches who themselves went through all these group weighings, insults and themselves often have problems with nutrition and body perception. And they do not always understand how they can work differently. But everything is changing. I try to convey to young girls that an eating disorder is not a joke. That you need to start working with a psychologist. That you need to love yourself.