European Championships Judging Scandal?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

BIANCHETTI KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON. SHE HAS NOTHING TO GAIN BY SPEAKING OUT EXCEPT TO DEFEND HER SPORT!

When you get a number of judges who all have the same ethnic and cultural ties they will grade the scores the same. Without knowing who these judges are, they can fix the scores quite easily. The chance of getting them in a random drawing is extremely high. It looks like all those judges with no names are in agreement, and therefore the scoring is fair. hmmm.

What are your predictions for Worlds and yes, Olys?

Joe

 

[chuckm]

Even if judges have no ethnic or cultural ties, what is to stop them from deal-making with other judges? The judges all know who the major contenders are in each discipline, and their 'normal' PCS scores. It wouldn't be hard to work out deals trading 'favors'--ie, marking certain skaters higher and certain other skaters lower.

We know judges were doing this exact same thing in ice dancing at past Olympics, and it was discovered because of patterns of ordinals scored by certain groups of judges. When you're talking PCS scores, it would be much more difficult to discern a similar pattern, and of course, even if you could you still wouldn't know who the judges were.

 

[curious]

better to have an off day at europeans than worlds don't you think? Is going to motivate irina to skate better

 

[hockeyfan228]

There are people that absolutely dislike Irina because she does not fit the image of the pretty lady. Even if she gives a stellar performance, we will hear cries of injustice, held up, collusion, etc.

I dislike Slutskaya's skating not because she is not the "image of the pretty lady," but because her skating doesn't meet the standards that I hold dear, which are identical for Men's and Ladies' skating: proper form and technique -- whether it be ballet-, modern-, hip hop-, tap-, jazz-, etc.based -- , line, posture, ability to create speed through knee-action and blade work without pumping the upper body or making disproportionate effort to gain speed, musicality, versatility, no degradation of form in transitioning between positions and elements, powerful and rhythmic jumps with proper flowout, minimal or no telegraphing, a clear counterbalance on the lutz, ability to skate in all directions and at least spin in both directions, flow, and edges. Not all of my current favorite skaters can meet these standards, but for me, they comprise the closest balance. Two skaters who did are Janet Lynn and John Curry, which is why they are my gold standards, and Shizuka Arakawa met them in Dortmund.

If I cared about a skater being a "pretty lady," I would love Ota, Cadavy, Kirk, Robinson, Bauil, and Chouinard, for example, but they are among my least favorite skaters, and I would hate Julia Sebestyen. Also Peggy Fleming would be my gold standard instead of Janet Lynn. (She's an honorary member of the board.) Sokolova makes me :banging: because she has the physique and the ability, but doesn't care to "finish" her movements and create a complete, 4-minute interpretive performance.

On the whole, I think that Slutskaya has exploited CoP to its fullest. Where I think she is overrated is in choreography and performance/execution (terrible description for the actual criteria), where, for example, the overuse of Biellman should be reflected, as overuse means the element ceases to be a "highlight," and in skating skills, where the way she makes speed and her lack of good posture is trumped by the amount of speed.

I don't think there should be a double-standard for skaters. I've always thought that Galit Chait was overrated for her speed but not marked down proportionally for her lack of edges, while other dance teams that did use edges, and were slower, were not rewarded proportionally for their edge work. I also think that giving full credit to flutzers and underrotators is a slap to the skaters who do true lutzes and full rotations, or who do "lesser" jumps properly.

 

[diver chick]

I don't think there should be a double-standard for skaters. I've always thought that Galit Chait was overrated for her speed but not marked down proportionally for her lack of edges, while other dance teams that did use edges, and were slower, were not rewarded proportionally for their edge work. I also think that giving full credit to flutzers and underrotators is a slap to the skaters who do true lutzes and full rotations, or who do "lesser" jumps properly.

And, IMO, this is the crux of the problem and whether it is the result of untrained or badly trained judges, lazy judging or just downright corrupt judging is debateable although I have to say I think there is an element of all three in it We see it all the time in Scuba Diving, a bad instructor passes a student fit to dive based on his standards, this diver goes on to become an instructor training new divers and with each cycle the divers are getting worse and worse and less and less capable because the standards are being lowered slightly on each one. In other words bad judges beget worse judges and with each new group of judges be trained the standards are slipping and they are getting away with more and more.

A skater has a notorious flutz which is consistantly marked as a lutz, another skater with a true lutz is thinking why do I bother, I can't win the judges don't mark what they see - they mark what they want to see!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There are people that absolutely dislike Irina because she does not fit the image of the pretty lady. Even if she gives a stellar performance, we will hear cries of injustice, held up, collusion, etc.

When it comes to being competitive, I think Irina is tops. She's an excellent skater, just not my cup of tea. If Irina skates the best from my point of view, I will not cry FOUL. I still see her as the top contender in Moscow but only if she skates the way I know she can.

Joe

 

[cianni]

Euros

Jositz, You have been predicting Irina as the winner at Worlds for some time. I think the IF is the point IF irina skates the best and wins good for her. I think the problem is she probably will win no matter HOW she skates and that I have problem with. I like Irina also however I think she is given inflated marks most of the time and will be given the title with cheating judging. I see no difference in COP then 6.0 system. Irina started the season well and has gone down hill for GPF and Euros yet she still wins. I see a problem and scandel brewing. Speedy will do nothing until Irina is World and OLY champ. My sport is drowning. I hope Im wrong but dont believe so.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

CiannI. After seeing Irina's first GP, then her second, I had to go with her being the tops for the Worlds, especially it being in her home town. Sasha and Michelle were not up to World competition, imo. I did find a lot of problems in Irina's Final GP but I just thought it was a bad hair day. I have not seen the Euros and I will on Sunday, but what I read, she had much more problems than she did in the GP Final. Then there was the rumours of being held up which is something I will be looking for on Sunday. I love Sussana's skating, but I could not imagine her beating Irina at Irina's best.

I've learned my lesson not to predict till I am sure.

Joe

 

[wvgal57]

Irina is already a World Champion. She doesn't need Speedy to get where she is. She got there by being willing to get off her arse and get out and compete. She is simply not happy to sit home and wait for the next "big" one. You know that liitle thing about trying to give back to the sport and all.

Some people are just whiney and will do anything to get into the headlines.

There is no scandal. The program component scores are pretty consistent within all the judges.

Irina's skating is top notch and if she skates at Worlds as well as she has at some events this season I don't see anybody who can beat her. Simple as that. Will her health hold out is another question. No doubt about her skill and commitment - heart disease and all, she's got the heart of a true champion!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is no scandal. The program component scores are pretty consistent within all the judges.

Irina's skating is top notch and if she skates at Worlds as well as she has at some events this season I don't see anybody who can beat her. Simple as that. Will her health hold out is another question. No doubt about her skill and commitment - heart disease and all, she's got the heart of a true champion!

The program component scores are pretty consistent. Do you know who those judges were? and who was the Technical Assistant? Check it out.

IF she skates at Worlds as well as has some events this season Does that include Euros? We'll see on Sunday.

I'm not knocking Irina. If a skater whom I believe is being held up, I will speak out whether it's an American thing or any othe country.

Joe

 

[ATW27]

Okay, Joe, I'm not wvgal, but, per your suggestion to her, I did go back at look at the list of judges and technical staff for the ladies event; now, my question is, what I am supposed to come away with, in regard to that? Understand, I ask not because I'm trying to challenge you at all, I'm just trying to see what you are seeing. I didn't recognise any of the judges by name, really, and only about 4 of them had (to me; keep in mind I'm no expert in this regard) Slavic-sound names. And I see that the techincal assistant was Jean-Christophe Simond; the only thing I really can tell you was that he skated for France in the late 1970's-early 1980's, finishing 6th at the 1984 Olympics. Is there something more about Simond I should know? I also noticed that the technical specialist was Scott Davis. So, please, am I missing something here?

Andy W.

 

[Kuchana]

Irina is already a World Champion. She doesn't need Speedy to get where she is. She got there by being willing to get off her arse and get out and compete. She is simply not happy to sit home and wait for the next "big" one. You know that liitle thing about trying to give back to the sport and all.

Some people are just whiney and will do anything to get into the headlines.

There is no scandal. The program component scores are pretty consistent within all the judges.

Irina's skating is top notch and if she skates at Worlds as well as she has at some events this season I don't see anybody who can beat her. Simple as that. Will her health hold out is another question. No doubt about her skill and commitment - heart disease and all, she's got the heart of a true champion!

True it may be that Irina doesn't need Speedy to win worlds or Turino for that matter. However, her Euro FS is an obvious and blatant example of being held up and grossly. I'm not denying that other skaters in the past and present have been held up but the way Irina was at Euros was just unbelivable. Again, AND AGAIN I reiterate, most people are not disputing Irina's win overall. It's the fact that she won the Free, which she shouldn't have with all of the mistakes and the poor skating as evidenced by the reports, the Euro commentators, and the articles already. That is a clear example of a scandal and I have no idea why you don't think it is.

Gee it's really considerate of you in generalizing people such as Witt and Bianchetti who spoke out against the ISU and the COP system as whiners and wanting to get attention just because they may have a valid point. :sheesh: You know, they may actually have a point and guess what? They do because the same things and questions they've said have been raised before and will still be brought out even further if such judging as the Euro shows and I have no doubt it will. Call it cynicism or maybe just accepting reality.

AND AGAIN, noone is denying that Irina's skating is top notch but if she or anyone else expects her to win Worlds with the kind of skating she did at Euros, then I find that laughable. Of course we can't forget the judges so who knows, they may do just that. And it's a mistake to assume that Irina is unbeatable because she is not. Noone is.

 

[Fossi]

Maybe Witt spoke up because she actually had to skate well and earn her 6th title. It wasn't just handed to her.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Okay, Joe, I'm not wvgal, but, per your suggestion to her, I did go back at look at the list of judges and technical staff for the ladies event; now, my question is, what I am supposed to come away with, in regard to that? Understand, I ask not because I'm trying to challenge you at all, I'm just trying to see what you are seeing. I didn't recognise any of the judges by name, really, and only about 4 of them had (to me; keep in mind I'm no expert in this regard) Slavic-sound names. And I see that the techincal assistant was Jean-Christophe Simond; the only thing I really can tell you was that he skated for France in the late 1970's-early 1980's, finishing 6th at the 1984 Olympics. Is there something more about Simond I should know? I also noticed that the technical specialist was Scott Davis. So, please, am I missing something here? Andy W.

Andy - There is not much to come away with. Just see who those judges were and their natiionalities. I believe there is a list of "ISU" judges with nationalities in its composition. Last time I looked it wasn't complete so imo, the judges are still anonymous. My contention is that judges who have been broght up with similar ethnic and nationalistic leanings may well judge a contestant similarly (not necessarily politically). I have not seen the Euros Ladies skate but I will today. If Irina skates, the best in that competition, I will only come away with that the judging was fair but I would still like to see who these judges are because I am concerned about figure skating's reputation. Of course there is nothing that can be done about any subjective judging in any given competition.. If you are a fan of skating and accept everything without question, so be it.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

Joe...

I have always agreed with you that the judges identities should be known down to the details of who gave what score to who. But with all the controversy over the Ladies event at Europeans, I am getting a whole lot more passionate about that opinion. I'm looking forward to developing a further opinion once we can watch the skates later today. I only wish TV represented things 100% like you see it live.

Speedy needs to do something to save the judging reputation of this sport.

DG

 

[wvgal57]

I'm not denying that other skaters in the past and present have been held up

But you want to single Irina out? I'm pointing out that it seems that Ms. Witt and Ms. Bianchetti maybe COULD have set out something in their scathing reviews to SHOW how they think Irina was held up. Why not get out the COP criteria and point out just HOW they would have judged it rather than make broad sweeping statements that the whole system is rampant with cheaters. They really try to make it look like the Russian skaters don't have any talent and have to depend on cheating judges. Comments and articles like that do not help this sport nor does having atheletes who chose to simply wait out another Olympic games to compete. The sport needs atheletes who are willing to push the sport rather than simply let it mold like old cheese.

As for Irina, I am personally just glad to see her take the effort to skate have a willingness to give back to the sport.

It's easy to shout to the world that the ISU is corrupt. I'm asking why they don't bother to take on the mantle of the judges who sat there in the arena with the COP criteria in front of them and do some real judging of their own. They are too busy writing articles with "wuz robbed" and "scandal".

I do think there are some that want to change things within the ISU. I think its sad that they are combing through every competition for some flimsy detail to blow out of proportion to aid them in their effort.

 

[Piel]

Comments and articles like that do not help this sport nor does having atheletes who chose to simply wait out another Olympic games to compete.

Can you please name these athletes? I have never known of any athletes who just compete at the Olympics. Irina may choose to compete in more events than some of the other skaters and that is her choice. This does not not make her better or more worthy than those who choose to compete less. Quality over quanity.

 

[Mathman]

I have never known of any athletes who just compete at the Olympics.

Maybe at the 1994 Olympics, for Brian Boitano, Torville and Dean and Gordeeva and Grinkov?

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

. As for Irina, I am personally just glad to see her take the effort to skate have a willingness to give back to the sport.

It's easy to shout to the world that the ISU is corrupt. I'm asking why they don't bother to take on the mantle of the judges who sat there in the arena with the COP criteria in front of them and do some real judging of their own. They are too busy writing articles with "wuz robbed" and "scandal".

I do think there are some that want to change things within the ISU. I think its sad that they are combing through every competition for some flimsy detail to blow out of proportion to aid them in their effort.

Everyone was happy to see Irina back skating after all she's been through. She had a bad skate at Euros and imo, was held up. It's no sin to have a bad skate. Every skater does. It is a sin if judges hold someone up. I'm not sure what she's giving back to the sport though.

The ISU is corrupt. The scandal at SLC was real. Nothing positive has come out of it. You're just going to have to live with that.

The changes needed have to be done to save the sport which is going down hill. The details are not flimsy.

Joe

 

[Vash01]

Everyone was happy to see Irina back skating after all she's been through. She had a bad skate at Euros and imo, was held up. It's no sin to have a bad skate. Every skater does. It is a sin if judges hold someone up. I'm not sure what she's giving back to the sport though.

The ISU is corrupt. The scandal at SLC was real. Nothing positive has come out of it. You're just going to have to live with that.

The changes needed have to be done to save the sport which is going down hill. The details are not flimsy.

Joe

If you have not even seen the program how do you know Irina was held up? A skater can skate poorly and still win if others skate worse. Michael Weiss's win at USN couple years ago is another example of this.

There can be some corrupt people in an organization. It is wrong to say that every time a Russian skater wins it is due to corruption. The scandal in SLC was a creation of the N.American media. The people that say they are trying to save the sport are actually damaging it, creating a scandal where one does not exist. The latest example of this is the furor over Irina's European win.....a poor performance but still good enough to win based on how others skated. It is a competition between different skaters. It is not a pass/fail college exam where a certain minimum must be met.

Vash