Fan Proposal: The New 10.0 System

[draqq]

So as a test run, I'm going to choose the ladies' short program and long program at TEB. It actually takes 2-3 hours of manual tabulation (which a computer can do in a half-second) to get each judge's scores in this proposed 10.0 system, so I'm only limiting it to the ladies event.

 

[Mathman]

I would still vote to scale the scores to a six point scalle rather than ten. That way, figure skating could keep its "brand." Everybody uses "rate these from one to ten" -- gymnastics, diving, how much pain you are in when you go to the doctor, how pretty is Bo Derek.

Six-point-oh means figure skating. We shoiuld try to keep it, if only as a marketing gimmick.

Anyway, one interesting thing that might happen is that the majority of judges could favor one skater but the point totals give the prize to another.

 

[draqq]

After much manual tabulation, which would take a computer about a half-second, I was able to convert the ladies SP into the proposed marks for this 10.0 system. It has been posted here:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38819-Ladies-SP-(Using-Proposed-10-0-System)

 

[Mathman]

^ Very cool. :yes:

 

[Mathman]

It would be even more cool if the ISU didn't stymie the fans by mixing up the judges' marks. When one judge is way out of line, we don't know whether that judge is scoring extra tough/extra leniently across the board or whether that judge is playing favorites.

 

[l'etoile]

Wow, that's really cool, draqq!!!

 

[R.D.]

First off, this is a really interesting concept. Thanks for sharing with us.

However, if I may nitpick: in the way the scores are presented, I see pros and cons to both the way it's currently done and the way you are proposing it be done. The way it is now, I can clearly see that the TES and PCS add up to the total score. However, under your system, at first glance- although it is far easier to see any scoring disparities between judges, the numbers don't appear to add up to the score presented below and that's a bit of a Sounds like the individual marks are being scaled to 10.0 - why not scale the final score as well?

Also- even under your system we STILL don't know which judge gave which score...so although transparency is improved a little, it is still not 6.0 where your mark was associated with your country.

Not matter what judging system is used, the REAL problem is not being solved- and that is, inconsistency in judging among events and within an event. The order you skate in should not matter (it does). The PCS you receive (and I'm talking the skating skills scores, etc.) should not vary from SP to FS for some skaters (it does). Changing the system once again isn't going to fix that...

A proposal to help with skating order judging problem: Mix up the entire field among groups like USFS does for Nationals in the SP. For the FS - you can mix up the field like this: for GPs, mix up the entire field. For Championships, have the top 12 mixed up among the final 2 groups and the bottom 12 mixed up among the first 2 groups.

 

[draqq]

First off, this is a really interesting concept. Thanks for sharing with us.

However, if I may nitpick: in the way the scores are presented, I see pros and cons to both the way it's currently done and the way you are proposing it be done. The way it is now, I can clearly see that the TES and PCS add up to the total score. However, under your system, at first glance- although it is far easier to see any scoring disparities between judges, the numbers don't appear to add up to the score presented below and that's a bit of a Sounds like the individual marks are being scaled to 10.0 - why not scale the final score as well?

Also- even under your system we STILL don't know which judge gave which score...so although transparency is improved a little, it is still not 6.0 where your mark was associated with your country.

Not matter what judging system is used, the REAL problem is not being solved- and that is, inconsistency in judging among events and within an event. The order you skate in should not matter (it does). The PCS you receive (and I'm talking the skating skills scores, etc.) should not vary from SP to FS for some skaters (it does). Changing the system once again isn't going to fix that...

A proposal to help with skating order judging problem: Mix up the entire field among groups like USFS does for Nationals in the SP. For the FS - you can mix up the field like this: for GPs, mix up the entire field. For Championships, have the top 12 mixed up among the final 2 groups and the bottom 12 mixed up among the first 2 groups.

The main reason why the final score isn't scaled is that the total score is still want counts at the end, and some competitions can come down to a tenth or even a hundredth of a mark.

However, I can see how the total score could be announced as both a scaled score and a points score. Something like "TSS 8.0/64.00". Of course, I don't want to have too many numbers are starts to look like the protocol itself.

And you're right, this 10.0 system doesn't fix the fact that the judges are completely anonymous. That is what leads to bias, and as you can see, some judges give crazily high or low marks in technical or artistry. It's just running wild now. On the good side, if they actually revealed the judges' country, this 10.0 system wouldn't need to be changed at all. Any changes they make to the current system automatically adapts to this 10.0 system.

 

[draqq]

It would be even more cool if the ISU didn't stymie the fans by mixing up the judges' marks. When one judge is way out of line, we don't know whether that judge is scoring extra tough/extra leniently across the board or whether that judge is playing favorites.

In the protocols? do you know if they mix up the judges marks for each skater or for the whole sheet? In other words, is Judge 1 for the first skater the same Judge 1 for all the skaters?

I actually think that might be true. Not certain.

 

[gkelly]

My understanding is that for international senior competitions, for each skater each column of numbers is from one judge, but the order in which the judges' columns are listed changes with every skater. So the numbers in column 1 for the first skater will be from a different judge than those in column 1 for the second skater, etc.

This is the anonymizing process.

Last I heard, they don't do this for junior scores internationally.

I know for a fact they don't do it for domestic scores within the US, including at Nationals. All the judges' columns remain in the same order throughout the protocol, and in the same order (judge 1, judge 2, etc.) as listed on the cover sheet of the results.

I have no idea about domestic competitions in other countries.



My understanding is that the point of mixing up the scores for senior internationals (where the stakes are highest and outside influence, e.g., from federation officials, most likely) is to make it impossible -- or at least much more difficult -- for anyone who wants to influence a judge to score certain skaters in certain ways to know whether the judge actually scored as the outside influencer wanted, giving judges the freedom to judge according to their own conscience rather than to how anyone else pressures them. How well it actually serves that purpose, I have no idea.

The judges should be able to recognize their own marks after the fact, at least for the skaters where they gave at least one memorable score that no one else gave. They wouldn't know which other judge gave which marks unless the other judge told them.

And meanwhile, the skaters and the public are also unable to know which judge gave which scores, whether they want to ask for explanations from specific judges or look for patterns or just satisfy their curiosity.