Figure skating boot issues: very wide forefoot

[amz]

Thank you for the compliment. I have been in this a very long time trialing and wearing brands as a high level skater.

But you do have a few things wrong. First of all, Jackson is great for Greek shaped feet, I know b/c I used to wear them competitively, same with Risport. It's all in make and model. Like I wear Risport but in their RF line, I cannot wear Royal line b/c it's for thinner/less volume feet than me aka Egyptian etc shaped feet. Edea also fits more narrow feet, not wider. Also, the brands and boots you have worn/experienced/are speaking of are of the lower level of skates for those brands and aren't made as well as the higher ones. Last but not least, the boot material will alter how it fits, especially in ankle. Leather fits way different than a synthetic material.

Ahh I stand corrected. Thank you for the further clarification. It’s definitely a lot of information to take in but good to know.

I’m also happy to know that there are more possibilities to try in the higher level boots and it’s not so black and white.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Ahh I stand corrected. Thank you for the further clarification. It’s definitely a lot of information to take in but good to know.

I’m also happy to know that there are more possibilities to try in the higher level boots and it’s not so black and white.

Yes, but do not try the higher level boots if they are not what you need as far as skill level and height/weight. It will cause newer bigger issues.

 

[amz]

Yes, but do not try the higher level boots if they are not what you need as far as skill level and height/weight. It will cause newer bigger issues.

Of course. This is why I am also really interested in the RF3 pro you suggested. After researching it more online I read it can offer support without over-booting?

I know I shouldn’t base my opinions of risports on the Electra as it’s a lower level boot but do the heel height/ instep really differ in different lines/models? This was one of the major issues I had. Everytime I try the old Electras I have now, I am amazed by how nice the toebox feels in comparison to the debuts but can’t get past the amount of space I have underneath my arch which after a while causes cramping. I don’t know if a custom insole could help with that or it means most likely risports won’t work for my arch. I definitely don’t have flat feet but not high arches either maybe moderate or flexible.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Of course. This is why I am also really interested in the RF3 pro you suggested. After researching it more online I read it can offer support without over-booting?

I know I shouldn’t base my opinions of risports on the Electra as it’s a lower level boot but do the heel height/ instep really differ in different lines/models? This was one of the major issues I had. Everytime I try the old Electras I have now, I am amazed by how nice the toebox feels in comparison to the debuts but can’t get past the amount of space I have underneath my arch which after a while causes cramping. I don’t know if a custom insole could help with that or it means most likely risports won’t work for my arch. I definitely don’t have flat feet but not high arches either maybe moderate or flexible.

Perhaps a podiatrist or physiotherapist could suggest exercises to strengthen your arches so they don't cramp. I have very high arches, so high that boot fitters and shoe salespeople make jokes about them. I've been doing arch exercises routinely for as long as I can remember -- walking barefoot on tiptoe around my home, for instance. Ballet barre classes would also be good, in soft slippers and en pointe if you wanted to take it that far.

I wear Risport RF1 boots with no added insoles, and no cramping or arch pain. I guess there's a space under my arch, but I don't notice it unless I think about it, and it's never been a problem.

 

[Query]

I don't know if this affects you, but my Jackson boots have more upwards bend at the ball of the foot (i.e., the ball of the foot is the lowest point on the sole of my Jacksons, both inside and out) than my other boots have had. That means the feet have to bend more there than with many brands.

(I am assuming that your fitter based your boot size on a length measurement from the heel to the ball, not from the heel to the toe, as some do, so that the bend actually occurs at the ball - as it should, because that joint is where your foot bends fairly easily - bone does not bend easily. ) (I am also assuming that your boot maker follows the same pattern, of trying to put the bend at the ball.)

For me, that curvature is one of the factors that creates some discomfort and a lot of imbalance. I think even more than the high heel height. I was looking to order Jacksons, but this realization is making me rethink that - unless Jackson says they can reduce it when they reduce the heel height.

In fact, though this conflicts with conventional wisdom, that means a slightly loose fit at the ball works better for me than a snug fit there - because a snug fit forces my foot to bend to conform to the boot.

Jackson told me they can take one or two or three times 3/8" off the height of the heel, on "modified" boots, and that doing so would also mean there was less forward tilt to the foot. (They can also take 3/8" off rapid custom boots, which cost less.) But I haven't asked yet whether that also means there would be less bend at the ball. I don't know whether they change that shape when they cut off the heel, or if the bend curvature at the ball is fixed.

If you bring orthotics with you to your boot fitting appointment, some boot fitters have you fit the boots with the orthotics inside, so that there is room for them, and perhaps to accommodate the bottom shape of the orthotic. That is mentioned on some boot maker's websites, but I don't see anything about orthotics on Jackson's website.

 

[Query]

I don't know if this affects you, but my Jackson boots have more upwards bend at the ball of the foot (i.e., the ball of the foot is the lowest point on the sole, both inside and out) than my other boots have had. That means your foot has to bend more there than with many brands.

You can estimate the vertical curvature of the shape inside your boot by looking at the shape of the outsole on the bottom of the boot. You can change it a little with a custom insole or orthotic, but there is rather limited space inside the boot to do that.

(I am assuming that your fitter based your boot size on a length measurement from the heel to the ball, not from the heel to the toe, as some do, so that the bend actually occurs at the ball - as it should, because that joint is where your foot bends fairly easily - bone does not bend easily. ) (I am also assuming that your boot maker follows the same pattern, of trying to put the bend at the ball.)

For me, that extra curvature is one of the factors that creates some discomfort and a lot of imbalance.

Have you tried to figure out whether that curvature contributes to your discomfort? I don't have a good easy way to test that.

Jackson told me they can take 3/8" or 3/4" or 9/8" (" means inch, i.e. 2.54 cm) off the height of the heel, on full custom boots, and that doing so would also mean there was less forward tilt to the foot. (They can also take 3/8" off rapid custom boots, which cost less.) But I haven't asked yet whether that also means there would be less bend at the ball. If there isn't, Jackson may not be the right boots for me. But that may or may not apply to you.

 

[amz]

I don't know if this affects you, but my Jackson boots have more upwards bend at the ball of the foot (i.e., the ball of the foot is the lowest point on the sole, both inside and out) than my other boots have had. That means your foot has to bend more there than with many brands.

You can estimate the vertical curvature of the shape inside your boot by looking at the shape of the outsole on the bottom of the boot. You can change it a little with a custom insole or orthotic, but there is rather limited space inside the boot to do that.

(I am assuming that your fitter based your boot size on a length measurement from the heel to the ball, not from the heel to the toe, as some do, so that the bend actually occurs at the ball - as it should, because that joint is where your foot bends fairly easily - bone does not bend easily. ) (I am also assuming that your boot maker follows the same pattern, of trying to put the bend at the ball.)

For me, that extra curvature is one of the factors that creates some discomfort and a lot of imbalance.

Have you tried to figure out whether that curvature contributes to your discomfort? I don't have a good easy way to test that.

Jackson told me they can take 3/8" or 3/4" or 9/8" (" means inch, i.e. 2.54 cm) off the height of the heel, on full custom boots, and that doing so would also mean there was less forward tilt to the foot. (They can also take 3/8" off rapid custom boots, which cost less.) But I haven't asked yet whether that also means there would be less bend at the ball. If there isn't, Jackson may not be the right boots for me. But that may or may not apply to you.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. I feel that the bend not only hurts my feet after a while because majority of my weight is there (also adding to the pressure of my toes getting squashed by the toebox shape) but also causes my heel to lift and affects my balance especially in spins.

When I tried the Risport I felt that it was almost the opposite with most of my weight being more on the heels this time which also felt unnatural however maybe it’s because I’m not used to it. What brands have you tried which have felt better?

Also the previous fitter which did not do a good job did measure from toe to heel and even then initially put me in a skate too small and not wide enough.

Thank you for sharing that. I’m not sure if the Jackson is good for me either if I have to do so many modifications. They would have to make a boot from scratch from me as I am having issues with it all (toebox shape, heel height, arch area).

Ugh my dream is to just find one boot that works, just one, which I can just keep getting over and over again and never have to think so much about this stuff anymore.

 

[tstop4me]

Ugh my dream is to just find one boot that works, just one, which I can just keep getting over and over again and never have to think so much about this stuff anymore.

All skaters have this dream. Unfortunately, your feet are likely to change with age and wear-and-tear. Even with proper fitting boots, the mere act of extensive skating is likely to alter your feet, since feet evolved to adapt to walking and running, not skating (though @Diana Delafield would likely say that doesn't hold for Canadians ).

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

This is exactly what I’m talking about. I feel that the bend not only hurts my feet after a while because majority of my weight is there (also adding to the pressure of my toes getting squashed by the toebox shape) but also causes my heel to lift and affects my balance especially in spins.

When I tried the Risport I felt that it was almost the opposite with most of my weight being more on the heels this time which also felt unnatural however maybe it’s because I’m not used to it. What brands have you tried which have felt better?

Also the previous fitter which did not do a good job did measure from toe to heel and even then initially put me in a skate too small and not wide enough.

Thank you for sharing that. I’m not sure if the Jackson is good for me either if I have to do so many modifications. They would have to make a boot from scratch from me as I am having issues with it all (toebox shape, heel height, arch area).

Ugh my dream is to just find one boot that works, just one, which I can just keep getting over and over again and never have to think so much about this stuff anymore.

Don't count out these brands. Just because they bend a certain way or not for another poster does not mean that your foot is going to bend a boot in the same exact place or way. We are all different to a degree with certain things here.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Ugh my dream is to just find one boot that works, just one, which I can just keep getting over and over again and never have to think so much about this stuff anymore.

The Impossible Dream for skaters. Not only do your feet change over the years, but the boot companies don't produce the same models in perpetuity. Either they discontinue a model, or they change the shape of older ones. I wore Jackson boots for many years. Then they redesigned their basic last and suddenly their boots didn't fit my feet anymore. I switched to Risports, and have also used Riedells.

 

[amz]

All skaters have this dream. Unfortunately, your feet are likely to change with age and wear-and-tear. Even with proper fitting boots, the mere act of extensive skating is likely to alter your feet, since feet evolved to adapt to walking and running, not skating (though @Diana Delafield would likely say that doesn't hold for Canadians ).

I guess the best thing someone can do then is find a really good fitter that they can go to every time.

This whole process has taught me to be patient and do things properly instead of impulsively which is how I got my last two boots as I didn’t want to wait 6 weeks for an appointment with everglides. I guess the 6 weeks wait is because they are one of the only places in the UK that know what they’re doing.

 

[amz]

Don't count out these brands. Just because they bend a certain way or not for another poster does not mean that your foot is going to bend a boot in the same exact place or way. We are all different to a degree with certain things here.

You are right. I am not going to make any assumptions and conclusions until I can get my foot into as many boots as possible in my appointment and see how I feel.

 

[amz]

The Impossible Dream for skaters. Not only do your feet change over the years, but the boot companies don't produce the same models in perpetuity. Either they discontinue a model, or they change the shape of older ones. I wore Jackson boots for many years. Then they redesigned their basic last and suddenly their boots didn't fit my feet anymore. I switched to Risports, and have also used Riedells.

Oh no that would annoy me so much! So I guess it’s best to be professionally fit every time you need to get new boots.

Also going on a bit of a tangent here, it’s not important but I used to always wonder how it could be that elite figure skates are usually seen wearing the same brand and model (like edea piano). I’m guessing now that brands like Edea makes them a custom boot completely for their feet. They get the exposure of top skaters such as in the Olympics wearing their boots and creating a reputation of being a top brand but I just don’t see what the point is if it’s not a one size fits all sort of product. Why are they trying to advertise their brand as the best when it’s not something that would actually be the best for everyone?

 

[tstop4me]

Why are they trying to advertise their brand as the best when it’s not something that would actually be the best for everyone?

Not just Edea; not just figure skate boots. Typically in various businesses, the marketing guys get paid a lot more than the engineers.

 

[Query]

It is probably better to contact the companies directly rather than go with what I say they said. Maybe you can find boots that will meet your needs. Most of the major figure skate boot companies have customer service departments that are somewhat responsive to customer (or sometimes dealer) questions. This may seem a bit crazy thing to do, but they also sometimes send customer representatives to figure skating competitions. I once went to such a competition (though I don't compete) and spoke to very knowledgeable representatives from 5 different boot companies. Also, some dealers sometimes arrange for company representatives to perform fittings at the dealer stores. I'm not clear how well that works - because some of those dealers aren't good enough to make the final adjustments. But it is an idea.

The basic problem, I think, is that skate boots, especially figure skate boots, probably need to fit a lot more snugly than most shoes and boots, because the height over the ice means they are harder to control. So it is impossible for any one design to fit everyone well.

The sole (including the part that your feet touches) is especially hard to modify, because it is not heat moldable. You can modify the bottom contour (and a bit of the sides - e.g., by heel cups and adhesive foam) a bit by replacing the insole with a custom insole, insert, or orthotic, but the snugness of the overall boot means there isn't much space above your foot to allow as much modification as some of us wish. I've spent a lot of time making my own custom insoles, but that space limitation makes it difficult. If I get longer and larger boots, there might be enough space (and I played with that once), but that places the initial greatest bend, at what is meant to be the ball, too far forwards, and the result was also heavy and clumsy. Plus getting boots that are too large completely contradicts the prevailing wisdom that figure skates should be very snug from the start.

In contrast, I have orthotic shoes that have lots of space over and around the feet - enough to add up to 3 layers of insert or orthotic. The orthotist took measurements and foam impressions that allowed the insert maker to create inserts with 3 layers (of varying density and flexibility - quite sophisticated) that came very close to exactly what I needed. But there isn't enough space in my skate boots to put in those inserts.

Almost any product you buy will be advertised as the best. E.g., the best car, truck, computer, phone... The reality is that you may have a set of requirements and desires that may be different than the designers intend. So no matter what an advertiser or reviewer thinks, it may not be best for you.

Companies like Harlick and Avanta can supposedly make you full custom boots, shaped to your feet in virtually every respect - but the price (around $1875 to $2200, if I remember right) and time delay (18 - 24 months, though Avanta will do a rush job for even more money) may not meet your desires, and I don't know how well they do. I haven't bought from either company - but there are other people on this forum who have. But maybe other people here could suggest other custom boot makers that are faster and cheaper? E.g., someone I met like SP Teri. SP Teri has claimed that they are designed to balance at the center of the foot, instead of the ball. I wonder if that means their footbeds are flatter. The heels on her boots were lower than mine.

I found some heat moldable hockey boots that have much less curvature and heel height than my various figure skates have had. But it will be a fairly big deal to try to attach figure skating blades. And if I were a competitive skater, or even want to test, I'm not sure that that wouldn't disqualify me for not using figure skates. At one point, ISU and USFSA rules said you had to use "figure skates", though I don't see that in the rulebooks now, and the term was never precisely defined in those sources.

Incidentally, some of the elevated heel height probably comes from your blades. In particular, the rear stanchion may be the highest. (In the hockey boots I looked at, most of the heel height comes from the blades or blade holders. Which is why I might get some of what I want from hockey boots, by replacing those blades and blade holders with figure skating blades.)

 

[Query]

As far as getting a professional fit every time you get new boots, some high level athletes wear out their boots every few months even if they fit perfectly (bad fit can make boots break down extra fast, but apparently so can extreme use), as others have mentioned. In the case of full custom boots from some boot makers, it takes longer than that to get the boots made (e.g., the 18-24 month case I mentioned). So I assume that some athletes must order the next pairs of boots before they are ready for them. That must be really complicated for kids who are still growing rapidly, or for people undergoing a condition (like pregnancy, or some anti-cancer medications, or deliberate diets) that could cause substantial weight gain or loss, since they might not know exactly how their feet sizes and shapes will change.

But perhaps you don't have to worry about that in the near future.

 

[Query]

Additional info: In a continuation of the conservation with Jackson customer service where I asked about cutting down heels, I indicated I might like no heel, and whether that would reduce footbed slant, but as indicated above they (writing as [email protected]) said

We do not manufacture flat sole skate boots under our custom program. The heel height on a men's size 6/6.5/7 & 7.5, is 2 " .We can remove up to 3 layers from the heel height, each layer is 3/16 ". Therefore, the shortest heel height we can do is 1 7/16". It will reduce the pitch of the sole, but it will not eliminate the pitch. We are not able to fulfill your heel height requirement."

I asked through the U.S. Jackson site whether cutting down the heel would reduce the sole curvature.

I got another response from [email protected]. They didn't exactly answer that question, but gave me a surprisingly detailed reply:

I agree with your statement that :any boot maker cannot meet your request. The reason is because Figure skate boots are purposely designed with a pitch as it allows the skater to balance at the center of the blade.
The “Last” that are used for building the figure skate boots are pitched as well. Jackson Skates doesn’t have “flat Last” and I can only assume that it is the same for other figure skate manufacturers. See image below
(They showed a picture of a boot, in which the soles lowest point and great point of lengthwise curvature is around the ball of the foot.)

We have 2 models that we sell in our recreational line called Softec that are more ”flat”, but they come with a recreational blade ( hockey type blade with no toe pick) The Softec Sport model and the Softec Vide, you can view them at
https://jacksonultima.com/pages/softec , but I do not think this is what you are looking for. They have a recreational support rating, therefore, if you use them weekly, you may have to change them once a year, as they may break down on you sooner.

My best suggestions would be to purchase a Hockey boot of your liking and having a skilled skate technician mount a figure blade for you. A “heel” is still required because the mounting plates of the figure blades also have a pitch, but at least the boots will be more “flat “ with less curve. I have included a video of s skate tec performing a figure blade mount to a hockey boot, for your reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7yuz1Ccero

I hope this helps and I wish you a great day!

Customer Service for Jackson Ultima Skates / Tournament-sports Marketing Inc.
505 Thompson Drive Unit 5, Cambridge, Ontario,Canada, N1T 2K7
CAN 1-800-265-2454
USA 1-800-263-1666

I will leave it to other people in this forum to determine whether there are other options to reduce lengthwise sole curvature from other boot companies, consistent with your wide forefoot. I believe that what they suggested - mounting a figure skate blade to a hockey boot - exceeds the skill level of many skate techs. And that you might have to experiment with adding different heel heights, with different shims to fit the boot without warping the blade, until you got it to work. If you aren't entirely confident in the skill level of your skate tech, it might not be a good option.

And like that person said, the SofTec line of boots, which is more flat, provide very limited support, and blades that aren't great for figure skating. They are mostly sold as rental boots for complete beginners, that skaters soon outgrow. I have tried rental skates like that, and was disappointed.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Honestly, we've talked this out and the proper suggestions were made much upstream.

 

[amz]

Additional info: In a continuation of the conservation with Jackson customer service where I asked about cutting down heels, I indicated I might like no heel, and whether that would reduce footbed slant, but as indicated above they (writing as [email protected]) said


I asked through the U.S. Jackson site whether cutting down the heel would reduce the sole curvature.

I got another response from [email protected]. They didn't exactly answer that question, but gave me a surprisingly detailed reply:



I will leave it to other people in this forum to determine whether there are other options to reduce lengthwise sole curvature from other boot companies, consistent with your wide forefoot. I believe that what they suggested - mounting a figure skate blade to a hockey boot - exceeds the skill level of many skate techs. And that you might have to experiment with adding different heel heights, with different shims to fit the boot without warping the blade, until you got it to work. If you aren't entirely confident in the skill level of your skate tech, it might not be a good option.

And like that person said, the SofTec line of boots, which is more flat, provide very limited support, and blades that aren't great for figure skating. They are mostly sold as rental boots for complete beginners, that skaters soon outgrow. I have tried rental skates like that, and was disappointed.

The place I am going to does custom insoles using a specific machine and also takes some 3D scans I believe. I think they are called Sidas custom ski insoles. I will share my problem with the fitter and see what they say, they are very knowledgeable about different arch types and pronation etc. I think maybe that this insole with the right boot could fix a lot of other issues including the feeling of the heel as insoles have the ability to change where the weight is distributed in the feet and how your foot is sitting in the boot. Also I think they are quite thin so do not take as much space so it may be worth exploring this option if it’s available where you are. I am planning on getting them with my boots anyway due to pronation so will update you on how I get on with them and if I feel a change in regards to the heel. I hope it will be something that could solve your problems as well as it sounds like you’ve gone through a lot of trouble and discomfort yourself.

 

[amz]

*Update*
Hi,

In case anyone wants to know I had my Everglides appointment recently and it went really well!

So firstly, my feet are not as wide as I thought and thankfully I did not have to get customs! The fitter was very friendly, knowledgeable and professional. I got to try on a variety of boots and I really liked that I could take my time with each boot and describe to them exactly what I felt. I really appreciated this because it takes me a bit of time standing and moving in the boot to feel where the pressure or pinching is. Sometimes I would have two different boots on each boot to really feel the difference between them. Risport was the only brand where I could feel a real heel lock which I have never felt before. Also, i tried on a higher Jackson boot and again I could feel that familiar squeeze at the front despite from the outside the toebox looking bigger than the risport, so looks can be deceiving and really you need to try the boots on in real life.

Anyway, I ended up with the RF3 Pro with custom insoles and I am so pleased with it. I love this boot so much, it feels like it’s made for my feet!! My toes are not squashed from the side and also not at the front. It feels like my foot can’t move in a good secure way but without pain and tightness in the toebox. It’s just the best thing I’ve ever skated in. My second toe has never been happier because it gone through a lot in the debuts. I waited to try them on the ice before I came on here to write my thoughts and I honestly can’t believe the difference. I am still getting used to the difference in heel pitch because the debuts feel so high in comparison. I’m also still breaking them in but I can already feel how much easier some things are to do. I’m still in shock that after my session yesterday I just walked away with no pain in my toes and feet and could just get on with my day. I’m so happy! Also I want to really thank everyone for their help.