Flirtatious Programs: what do you think of them?
- Thread starter andromache
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- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
I'm okay with it for exhibition programs.
For competitions though... if the flirtatious moves stand out more than everything else in the program; or that half their competitive programs have those moves, then I won't apologize for stereotyping.
For competitions though... if the flirtatious moves stand out more than everything else in the program; or that half their competitive programs have those moves, then I won't apologize for stereotyping.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
I'm sorry to post again, but another thing to consider is---
Like, I was talking to my hairdresser about how much I'm into figureskating (particularly Mao) the other day, and so I then asked him if he watched figureskating, and he said 'Maybe only at Olympics' and so I asked him why he didn't get hooked, and he said that he found the scoring system to be incomprehensible, and it didn't seem like a sport to him.
So I see figureskating as a sport, first and foremost, and I feel sad that understanding the use of edges as a sport is difficult to understand, but it is what it is. And I think that getting new fans will only come through appealing to the performance arts aspect of figureskating, not the sport part, because novice fans don't get the edge part.
And sooo, the point I'm trying to make is: if you encourage skaters to put together programs that are similar to ballet, you'll likely get fans who like to watch ballet. If you encourage skaters to put together programs that are similar to jazz, you'll likely get fans who like to watch jazz. If you encourage skaters to put together programs that are similar to striptease, you'll likely get fans who like to watch striptease. So on and so forth.
Out of those fans who initially started watching figureskating because they thought it was ballet on skates, only a minority will then go on to learn that figureskating is a sport about edges, and then fall in love with figureskating as a sport. Out of those fans who initially started watching figureskating because they thought it was jazz on skates, only a minority will then go on to learn that figureskating is a sport about edges, and then fall in love with figureskating as a sport. Out of those fans who initially started watching figureskating because they thought it was striptease on skates, only a minority will then go on to learn that figureskating is a sport about edges, and then fall in love with figureskating as a sport. So on and so forth.
So what I'm asking is, is it better to have figureskating fans who like ballet or figureskating fans who like striptease? I personally wouldn't have ever gotten into figureskating if I had had the impression that figureskating is a pretend-sport where the sexiest person wins.
I hope I'm making sense here. I basically think that figureskating is neither ballet, nor jazz, nor striptease. But depending on how it is presented, it gives the impression of it being any one of those things, and as far as misunderstanding goes, I'd far rather have people misbelieving that figureskating is ballet on skates rather than something else.
Like, I was talking to my hairdresser about how much I'm into figureskating (particularly Mao) the other day, and so I then asked him if he watched figureskating, and he said 'Maybe only at Olympics' and so I asked him why he didn't get hooked, and he said that he found the scoring system to be incomprehensible, and it didn't seem like a sport to him.
So I see figureskating as a sport, first and foremost, and I feel sad that understanding the use of edges as a sport is difficult to understand, but it is what it is. And I think that getting new fans will only come through appealing to the performance arts aspect of figureskating, not the sport part, because novice fans don't get the edge part.
And sooo, the point I'm trying to make is: if you encourage skaters to put together programs that are similar to ballet, you'll likely get fans who like to watch ballet. If you encourage skaters to put together programs that are similar to jazz, you'll likely get fans who like to watch jazz. If you encourage skaters to put together programs that are similar to striptease, you'll likely get fans who like to watch striptease. So on and so forth.
Out of those fans who initially started watching figureskating because they thought it was ballet on skates, only a minority will then go on to learn that figureskating is a sport about edges, and then fall in love with figureskating as a sport. Out of those fans who initially started watching figureskating because they thought it was jazz on skates, only a minority will then go on to learn that figureskating is a sport about edges, and then fall in love with figureskating as a sport. Out of those fans who initially started watching figureskating because they thought it was striptease on skates, only a minority will then go on to learn that figureskating is a sport about edges, and then fall in love with figureskating as a sport. So on and so forth.
So what I'm asking is, is it better to have figureskating fans who like ballet or figureskating fans who like striptease? I personally wouldn't have ever gotten into figureskating if I had had the impression that figureskating is a pretend-sport where the sexiest person wins.
I hope I'm making sense here. I basically think that figureskating is neither ballet, nor jazz, nor striptease. But depending on how it is presented, it gives the impression of it being any one of those things, and as far as misunderstanding goes, I'd far rather have people misbelieving that figureskating is ballet on skates rather than something else.
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- Joined
- Apr 18, 2015
I'd distinguish between flirtatious/coquettish and sexy. For instance, Radionova's short programme to the latin american music last year was pretty coquettish but not in an inappropriately sexy way for someone of her age.
I have no issues with sexiness in most performances as long as it's backed by the talent to make it work, so I agree with many of the posters here on that score. I thought that Liza's Bolero last year very much worked in that way and Javier's Black Betty was a personal favourite! I hope that anyone who is against sexiness in figure skating programmes is not against it because of a prudish or old fashioned school of thought.
I have no issues with sexiness in most performances as long as it's backed by the talent to make it work, so I agree with many of the posters here on that score. I thought that Liza's Bolero last year very much worked in that way and Javier's Black Betty was a personal favourite! I hope that anyone who is against sexiness in figure skating programmes is not against it because of a prudish or old fashioned school of thought.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Goodness me. You must be among the very small minority. How many people outside figure skating really care about Midori Ito beside the vocal few on figure skating boards and perhaps in Japan only? Midori is a tech goddess don't get me wrong but she does not popularise the sport world wide like Katerina Witt have done. She don't get the sport on popular magazine covers, chat shows, have her own TV shows and figure skating ice shows evolve around her (Carmen on ice - with Orser and Boitano), have programs that create indelible impressions on generations of skaters to come.
Witt got enough respect to become a very successful and respectable spokesperson for the sport, won many legion of admirers to the sport internationally and be one of the best ambassadors that made figure skating relevant and appealing as a spectator sport. I think it would not be wrong to say she is among the many reasons how ladies figure skating has became known the marquee event at the Winter Olympic games. You are perhaps confusing musical performance with real life persona or your interpretation of it.
Tat might have even have expressed before to Mao that perhaps it would benefit her if she can fall in love as it will help with her artistry. What do you think it means. It does not = sex, but it is with love awakening, develop attraction, you understand and appreciate what sexy means, power of feeling sexy and can open up your ability to interpret and express music even more. Given majority of the music are written about some type of love stories (love thy country, brother/sisterhood/family/Pets, lovers), it is certainly quintessential part of developing artistry in general. With out the full appreciation and understanding of feeling sexy, you are limiting yourself within a very narrow range of artistic possibilities.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2014
Very entertaining...there was also Verner's golden pants at the 2014 Worlds Exhibition.
Yes, I liked that one, too!
I actually put that in my original post, which I think a moderator edited for some reason.
What do you mean with "deathly stare"?
Do you mean the concetrate look when Witt watched her opponents skate? I actually liked that about her very much, she was one of the few female top skaters back then who actually watched her opponents skate because she was interested in what they where doing. She loves figure skating. I admire her because now we know how difficult her free skate to Carmen at the Olympics must have been for her, knowing that she would only be allowed to participate in shows if she would win. And pulling off a sexy Carmen like that under that amount of pressure is really incredible. Yuna Kim in her Vancouver SP reminded me of that, but I don't think that you can compare the pressure.
But I don't like her that much lately, because of some things she did/didn't say about the GDR doping system etc.. It wouldn't affect her legacy if she would tell the truth.
Right? I think some people in this thread are afraid of embracing their sexuality / sensuality / flirtatiousness. It's FS - it's both a judged sport and entertainment and should be diverse as possible.
This thread is toxic
As far as I'm concerned 'flirty' programs are no different from 'pretty', 'melancholy', or 'joyful' ones. Is sexuality so much more manipulative of a human experience that it deserves all this gripe?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
This thread is toxic
As far as I'm concerned 'flirty' programs are no different from 'pretty', 'melancholy', or 'joyful' ones. Is sexuality so much more manipulative of a human experience that it deserves all this gripe?
Consider me in this camp. I'm not sure how/why some consider a poorly-skated sexy program to be worse than a poorly skated differently-themed kind of program. Could it be--GASP--that outdated cultural norms hold sex appeal (especially women's sex appeal) as especially shameful or something to hide? Probably.
Programs with too much posing annoy me too, but I'm not going to single out sexy-posing as the worst of the worst, or act as if those skaters are somehow being more manipulative than skaters who who use other types of programs to mask their flaws.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2014
100% agree with this whole post.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
Sport is physical, like dance. Who doesn't like to see a beautiful swimmer or diver? It's appealing and attracts fans. Hmmm......does Nadal get favorable referee calls because of his looks? Never thought of it.
In skating some programs are senuous by their subjects. Ashley does these and they make sence. I saw a YouTube where Butreskaya hiked up her costume exposing a shapely thigh on the last note. I wonder, did that goose her score up a little?
Paul Wylie's comment about Oksana in '94 sticks with me - 'Since when does vamping for the judges pass as artistic merit?' I think the beautiful alluring ones aren't trying to be. Which is why Tuks little bumps/grinds never really work. But, who knows - laciviousnessis in the eye of the beholder!
In skating some programs are senuous by their subjects. Ashley does these and they make sence. I saw a YouTube where Butreskaya hiked up her costume exposing a shapely thigh on the last note. I wonder, did that goose her score up a little?
Paul Wylie's comment about Oksana in '94 sticks with me - 'Since when does vamping for the judges pass as artistic merit?' I think the beautiful alluring ones aren't trying to be. Which is why Tuks little bumps/grinds never really work. But, who knows - laciviousnessis in the eye of the beholder!
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2014
I am okay only with VERY small doses. I'm generally a rather old-fashioned person, so, for example, Plushy's ex-which-will-not-be-named, made me raise my eyebrows a little. Yeah, I know it's supposed to be fun, but, um, have you heard the lyrics? Although I'm probably not one to talk because I get upset when girls wear super plunging v-necks...you can just imagine how much, say, V/M's Carmen freaked me out (some of their choreo was, um, rather questionable in appropriateness in my eyes, although I get that they were telling a story and everybody loved it...). Just to clear up: I am in no way passing judgment on anyone who says they like that. I really don't care if you like different things than me, I'm just saying that I don't particularly appreciate that style of skating. A samba or tango short dance pattern? I can take it. It's required, and it's honestly not that bad. But a ridiculously revealing outfit and choreography that depicts, um, things you wouldn't want your mother to know you were depicting on ice? No thank you.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
One aspect of sexy/flirtation in skating that I haven't seen anyone mention is its role in pairs and ice dance. Usually, I tend to see people praise skaters who appear physically involved with one another, and sometimes these programs are more sexy than romantic (Virtue/Moir's Carmen, for example). Does it simply make people more uncomfortable to see singles skaters being sexy or flirtatious because they are alone on the ice?
Anyway, I don't think anyone here is arguing that a full striptease is automatically artistry, or that stripteases ought to be allowed in competition. Taking the argument to such a hyperbolic level isn't really helping the discussion go anywhere.
Anyway, I don't think anyone here is arguing that a full striptease is automatically artistry, or that stripteases ought to be allowed in competition. Taking the argument to such a hyperbolic level isn't really helping the discussion go anywhere.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
^^ I totally understand your feelings Layback11. Even if various kinds of expression are equally valid, we'll still have our personal preferences. Some will like more understated expression as presented by Satoko and others will like the very dramatic and theatrical Leonova.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Just to be clear, I totally respect that people have different tastes in performing styles and express those tastes. My posts are aimed at those who believe that sexy/flirtatious performing is somehow objectively worse than or weaker than other types.
I'm a sad/classical kind of girl myself, usually. I love performances that make me cry.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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I have to say that most blatant example of exhibitionistic, meretricious behaviorb on ice was not by a woman-it would be Phillipe Candeloro in his entire pro career.
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- Nov 18, 2014
I might have to look that up now...
Do you mean in his skating or his personal life?
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- Aug 1, 2011
How many :thumbsup: are allowed on here? There's cheesy, there's hammy, there's hammy and cheesy, and THEN there was Candeloro.
Mostly I find flirtatious programs so corny they'd pop if you heat them. But you know de gustibus non est disputandum. They do sell tickets.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Too true. I was horrified while watching Fantasy on Ice (I think it was 2013) on TV and Philippe was doing his program but then went to the audience and chose a lady, had her by the head and did some hip thrusting close to her face. :hopelessness: She may have liked it but I was scarred for life and nearly swore-off going to live shows. But then I remembered I'd never be able to get a Ice-side ticket anyway. 
