Flirtatious Programs: what do you think of them?

[gkelly]

As often, the first examples that come to my mind are from the 1990s.

In 1993 I noted three girls, all of Slavic ethnicity born in 1977, who used flirtatious presentation approaches that year (and continued to do so in later programs as they matured).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yleyr-tqyVg&t=2m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yleyr-tqyVg&t=5m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yleyr-tqyVg

Here's a skater who knows he has a masculine sex appeal and knows how to work it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWVF-5_bT5U

A younger skater developing that skill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBN6C2cm6tA&t=1m43s

 

[hurrah]

I have to say that most blatant example of exhibitionistic, meretricious behaviorb on ice was not by a woman-it would be Phillipe Candeloro in his entire pro career.

You mean something like this:

https://youtu.be/4fdJ8YqRnIY?t=46

The first 30-seconds is all about him playing with his gun. Ha ha! That part where he alternates his holding hand is ridiculous. Honestly, the guy is nuts! (Oops)

 

[OS]

Well variety is the spice of life. As long as the music calls for it, it should be allowed to expressed freely and unapologetically. The contention is when music doesn't require it, and it is used as some sort of cheap trick / ploy / distraction then it become unconvincing and just poorly taste. Any flair be better back it up with substance rather than a form of compensation.

As for Candelro, I admit i liked his D'artagnan when I was a very young. Guilty pleasure. The story and character after alll is bigger than life, it is adventurous, fantasy, it requires it. Just as Pirates of Caribbean type of program totally need this type of pantomime craft.

In any case I don't think we should worry too much. It will be a LOOONG time away before we get any sort of Magic Mike program on ice. (wait... Joubert is coming out of retirement right? <evil lol!>)

 

[MalAssada]

I don't mind flirting, as long as it is discreet and fitting with the music and not done to earn points, instead of fitting the program.

 

[gkelly]

I don't mind flirting, as long as it is discreet and fitting with the music and not done to earn points, instead of fitting the program.

Well, if judges are doing their jobs correctly, they'll give more points to flirting that fits the music and takes place while the skater is skating, and few or none to gratuitous flirting that doesn't show off skating skill or enhance the interpretation.

 

[solani]

Too true. I was horrified while watching Fantasy on Ice (I think it was 2013) on TV and Philippe was doing his program but then went to the audience and chose a lady, had her by the head and did some hip thrusting close to her face. :hopelessness: She may have liked it but I was scarred for life and nearly swore-off going to live shows. But then I remembered I'd never be able to get a Ice-side ticket anyway.

Haha, he always reminded me of a male stripper in his attitude. I would have run if it were me, but then male strippers always find the women who don't.
If you go down that path in your performances you certainly have to make it more exiting with every new program and then ... well .. there's a point when it gets cheap.

 

[dress]

i have no problem with sexy or flirtatious programs when:
-it fits the music and character
-good choreo without too much sexy posing (be sexy while moving lol)
- age appropriate (no pre teen doing something sexy like V/m carmen)
-adequate costumes ( no private parts visible please)

Sexy can make good programs. You need to have good interpretation skills to be sexy while skating. Furthermore, iI hat it when people do latin dances or tangowhile looking absolutely mot sexy. Tango is a sexy dance

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I'm not quite sure what to do with this... I mean, I'm not sure where the discussion is coming from. What kind of programs would be the 'bad sexy' type? I can remember a lot of performances/programs that were flirtatious/coquettish/seductive/sexy or whatever to me and I don't remember any of them getting called cheap or shallow (I mean seriously, not just only because people needed to find something to complain about).

Daisuke's 'In the garden of souls' had a sensual, seductive feel to it. Javiers 'Black Betty' (as already mentioned) is shamelessly sexy in a fun way (and in a good way, IMO). And for the ladies there was Kaetlyns electrifying Mambo SP, which was fun and energetic and yes, sexy. Or Akikos 'Kill Bill', which worked especially great because it had a certain dangerous femme fatale vibe. There are so many more examples...

Bottom line: I'm probably not getting the topic/question/problem. There are things I think are too much, but I can't remember seeing any of that in figure skating. There is nothing wrong with being sexy, on the contrary, it can be appealing just like being elegant, fierce, energetic or lyrical.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Well, rather than use the said term, I might have said ‘doing movements to bring attention to the judges/audience that you are a sexy being and giving a false impression that you are sexually available to them, all for the sake of hiding the fact that you are not a talented enough figure skater to fill the program with movements that demonstrate actual figure skating skills.

I find the bolded quite a disturbing judgement. Do you really think that is what some skaters are doing? Then, your use of the contested word (I believe you used a similar word to refer to Liza's presentation of herself in her new ex. too) was being used to make a value judgement on skaters' sexuality and ethics. I am deeply uncomfortable with that.

Sex is part of life and I think can be a valid artistic expression like love, longing, hope, freedom etc. I realise that taste will vary. I know, for example, that some did not like the hand /mouth gesture in Dai's 2012 SP, whilst I thought it fitted the dark, slightly disturbing, seductive mood of the programme beautifully. Some have expressed that V/M's Carmen went too far. I thought their piece was one of the few Carmens I have seen that really conveyed the raw passion of the story. Sex has to be intrinsic to Carmen to me. However, opinions on choreography will differ. I just hope we can do that without demeaning any skaters.

 

[hurrah]

I find the bolded quite a disturbing judgement. Do you really think that is what some skaters are doing? Then, your use of the contested word (I believe you used a similar word to refer to Liza's presentation of herself in her new ex. too) was being used to make a value judgement on skaters' sexuality and ethics. I am deeply uncomfortable with that.

Sex is part of life and I think can be a valid artistic expression like love, longing, hope, freedom etc. I realise that taste will vary. I know, for example, that some did not like the hand /mouth gesture in Dai's 2012 SP, whilst I thought it fitted the dark, slightly disturbing, seductive mood of the programme beautifully. Some have expressed that V/M's Carmen went too far. I thought their piece was one of the few Carmens I have seen that really conveyed the raw passion of the story. Sex has to be intrinsic to Carmen to me. However, opinions on choreography will differ. I just hope we can do that without demeaning any skaters.

I am satisfied with whatever views I have expressed in this thread and feel no need to apologize for having my own opinion.

 

[andromache]

I find the bolded quite a disturbing judgement. Do you really think that is what some skaters are doing? Then, your use of the contested word (I believe you used a similar word to refer to Liza's presentation of herself in her new ex. too) was being used to make a value judgement on skaters' sexuality and ethics. I am deeply uncomfortable with that.

Sex is part of life and I think can be a valid artistic expression like love, longing, hope, freedom etc. I realise that taste will vary. I know, for example, that some did not like the hand /mouth gesture in Dai's 2012 SP, whilst I thought it fitted the dark, slightly disturbing, seductive mood of the programme beautifully. Some have expressed that V/M's Carmen went too far. I thought their piece was one of the few Carmens I have seen that really conveyed the raw passion of the story. Sex has to be intrinsic to Carmen to me. However, opinions on choreography will differ. I just hope we can do that without demeaning any skaters.

I completely agree! The judgment that some skaters "give the false impression of being sexually available " disturbs me as well. Last I checked, the only time anyone indicates they are sexually available is when they actually say so with words that mean consent. I'm not sure how an ice performance does that.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

I completely agree! The judgment that some skaters "give the false impression of being sexually available " disturbs me as well. Last I checked, the only time anyone indicates they are sexually available is when they actually say so with words that mean consent. I'm not sure how an ice performance does that.

:thumbsup:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Last I checked, the only time anyone indicates they are sexually available is when they actually say so with words that mean consent. I'm not sure how an ice performance does that.

Not just to be argumentative but I think this is bit over dramatic. Its been my experience that certain behavior and revealing clothing can actually send a message whether intended or not. Look...I'm not just being a prude here and I'm also not saying that because someone is dressed in a seductive fashion that anything goes. I'm simply saying the use of sexuality isn't limited to the physical act itself which needs consent but is a bit more expansive in that things like enticement for gain exist often without any actual nefarious activities taking place.

I agree with the notions posted that there is nothing dubious or scoundrel happening when a skater flirts for points. It's no different than when a skater overdramatizes their body to the music. To me it is way overdone and often looks silly. But some people like that sort of thing so I just don't comment on it. Someone said earlier that this sport needs as much diversity as possible. I'm going to give that a huge :thumbsup:

 

[mrrice]

I loved Alissa Czisny's "Man of la Mancha" Flirtatious and sophisticated.:agree:

 

[dorispulaski]

By the way, I loved Phillippe's d'Artagnan, which is why I watched his pro programs...unfortunately, the pro programs involved taking as much of costume off as he could get away with, and crawling into the audience to maul spectators and in pro competitions, at least one judge. Sad to say, when a performer's hallmark is outrageous behavior, there seems to be a law of gravity that he must sink ever lower to get the same effect.

When he picked the Braveheart soundtrack to perform to, I worried that he would at some point feel called upon to moon the British, as the William Wallace character did in the movie. I don't believe he ever went quite that far.

I stopped watching him after his George of the Jungle routine..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWknPW_SMg

That said, none of the ladies mentioned have stripped down to their underwear or jumped out to single out either a judge or a spectator. So Candeloro wins the award for Most Outrageous IMO.

 

[chuckm]

No one has mentioned Kaetlyn Osmond. All of her programs so far have been coquettish and flirtatious, to the point where some have begun to wonder if she has become stuck in a one-dimensional rut.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

During the 2014 Europeon Championship Ladies FS I remember a poster...either Ziggy ( )or Frenchie posting and discussing a program they called Naughty Nurse. I thought it was a Helgesson sister but maybe it was Nathalie Weinziel. Anyone know what I'm talking about or how to find a link? I searched the ladies FS thread but didn't see it there either because I missed it or am mixing the facts up. I'm more curious now that I've actually looked for it for like an hour now

 

[Mathman]

Well, this thread poppoed up out of nowhere and caught me by surprise. Forgive me if I repeat what others have alread said.

To me, "flirting" is the exact opposite of "making yourself sexually available." Flirting says, "Your eyes may shine and your teeth may grit, but none of this candy you will git." Socially, flirting is the acting out out of a passing notion of considered attraction, together with an acknowledgment of its impracticality.

I have always consider Miss Piggy sexy!

I think the reason Miss Piggy is sexy is because of her "Go with what you got" attitude.
.
http://www.chicagonow.com/chewables-chicago/files/2012/04/Picture-1.png

Marilyn Monroe had it, too.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...alWG40avXWqTCtN3QWvjm9HgFd8R-D5SZRtLzyspcKz2A

 

[OS]

=

When he picked the Braveheart soundtrack to perform to, I worried that he would at some point feel called upon to moon the British, as the William Wallace character did in the movie. I don't believe he ever went quite that far.

I stopped watching him after his George of the Jungle routine..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWknPW_SMg

(Oh James Horner, rest his soul. One of my fav film of all time.)

Javier still got some way to catch up then...to uphold up the European tradition. What can he do to top his JMan aerobics program.

Speaking of examples of bad flirting programs l. I still couldn't get over Max Kovtun's awkward teenager thrusting hips to Tom Jones all last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91hvNvLIgxs

The thing is he keeps winning everything, so we got to see it so many times. Everytime it is like nooooo, must leave ::disapp: can not unseee....

When skaters come up with programs like that, it is usually better for the performer to be in on joke, some sort of self awareness and deprecation (Like Candelero and Javier or even Plushy in their flirty programs), but the way Max carrying on about it, it looks like he seriously believe in his 'sex appeal' and arrogantly flaunting it excessively. It is neither confidently expressed, let alone 10% convincing. Gyration on the same spot with little actual skating and actual emotional registration just makes him like an narcissistic teenager live out his fantasy because 'he can'. Wonder how he can evolve from this program upcoming season! I am not hopeful.

I have said flirting/sex appeal is warranted if the music call for it. I should add a big Astrix next to it. It is perhaps even more important to know thyself and your limitations. That not all music is age appropriate and bad choices and negligence can certainly hinder progress. It is important to surrounding yourself with the right people, get feedbacks from multiple sources and tweak and improve when you can (thought not all feedbacks are relevant, but at least you are clearer and more confident on why you do the program that way).

 

[mrrice]

No one has mentioned Kaetlyn Osmond. All of her programs so far have been coquettish and flirtatious, to the point where some have begun to wonder if she has become stuck in a one-dimensional rut.

True......And she could sell them like nobody else. Spoiled Canada.