Frank Carroll to Assist with Team USA Mentoring Program

[StitchMonkey]

American parents and "the American mentality" have not prevented ice dance partnerships from flourishing in the U.S.

I think one or more other thing(s) also must be issues with U.S. pairs.

It was not that long ago that the idea of US ice dance teams doing well was seen as less likely than our pairs. When Tanith Belbin / Benjamin Agosto got their first world medal (silver in 2005) it was after a 20 year drought in US Ice Dancing world medals. Saying it is not an issue is not really fair as we don't exactly have a long history there. Rather we have had recent success.

I also think Ice Dancing has a few things going on it that gives it an advantage over pairs.

1) There seems to be much less of a women or over the hill in there early 20s situation. So skaters do have time to build past their 18th birthday. Ice dancers really do seem to enjoy more longevity, perhaps it is due to being lowering impact (low impact does not mean easier! just less likely to kill your skeleton and it's connecting bodily thingies)

2) It is different enough that I suspect there is less of a mind set of "they could just do singles" it's its own animal. We don't exactly have a singles counterpoint to ice dancing.

3) It has dance in the name and resembles ballroom dance. . . something that people understand takes partners for. In someways the partnership aspect is more familiar.

 

[ice coverage]

It was not that long ago that the idea of US ice dance teams doing well was seen as less likely than our pairs. When Tanith Belbin / Benjamin Agosto got their first world medal (silver in 2005) it was after a 20 year drought in US Ice Dancing world medals. Saying it is not an issue is not really fair as we don't exactly have a long history there. Rather we have had recent success.

I also think Ice Dancing has a few things going on it that gives it an advantage over pairs.

1) There seems to be much less of a women or over the hill in there early 20s situation. So skaters do have time to build past their 18th birthday. Ice dancers really do seem to enjoy more longevity, perhaps it is due to being lowering impact (low impact does not mean easier! just less likely to kill your skeleton and it's connecting bodily thingies)

2) It is different enough that I suspect there is less of a mind set of "they could just do singles" it's its own animal. We don't exactly have a singles counterpoint to ice dancing.

3) It has dance in the name and resembles ballroom dance. . . something that people understand takes partners for. In someways the partnership aspect is more familiar.

The dry spell of World medals for U.S. pairs is a somewhat recent phenomenon too, I would add. Don't think American parents and "the American mentality" would have changed significantly over time.

I like your point 1).

Not sure what I think about point 2). :think:

Cannot agree at all with point 3). The name of the discipline is "Pairs" -- how could the partnership aspect not be completely obvious and understood???

 

[StitchMonkey]

The dry spell of World medals for U.S. pairs is a somewhat recent phenomenon too, I would add.

I like your point 1).

Not sure what I think about point 2).

Cannot agree at all with point 3). The name of the discipline is "Pairs" -- how could the partnership aspect not be completely obvious???

Maybe the name was wrong to focus on, but I do think that the need to stick with a damn partner seems to translate better in Ice Dancing than in pairs. Paris is pairs skating. . . as opposed to singles skating. Ice dancing, is more ballroom on skates. I.e. one is a modification of something you always need a partner for, and the other is more two people doing the individual version together. For whatever reason, the idea of ballroom dancers needing to stay together seems to seem logical to people. . . so dance has an advantage having its roots there.

Actually calling it partners skating rather than pairs might actually help on a semantic level. . . but anyway. . . I don't want to get the silly - a pair sorta implies a set of individuals.

I also want to add, that I am someone has said for years that ballroom dance would be an excellent addition to the Olympics, so saying Ice Dancing has more similarities to it than Pairs, is not intended as an insult or any sort of commentary on the skill.

Maybe you are right on the pairs being recent. . . I'll keep my fingers crossed, but not sure when we were really strong in it. Karol Kennedy / Peter Kennedy were strong in post WWII era. Since their last silver in 52 we have had one gold, two silvers and a smattering of bronzes. I would love to see our pairs do better. I would be thrilled to see the US earn three spots to worlds. . . that might be a reasonable goal for this quad.

I'm trying to think of other sports that have two people do stuff and am wondering about how long they train together and what they do to stay together and how much an issue it is. Doubles tennis? Two man bobsled/luge? Not sure how long those pairs/partnerships last. Even in relay races, they pull the racers in and out all the time at the last minute. One hand I agree with you, it has pairs in the bloody name. . . stick together you need to - it does seem like it should be obvious. On the other. . . something clearly is not clicking with it. . . and perhaps people see pairs skating as too much like something you can just grab a second person for easily.

 

[Jammers]

US Pairs needs a Russian coach someone like Igor Shpilband to take over the Pairs program like he did for US Ice Dancing. He is the reason that the US is now a world power in Ice Dancing.

 

[RobinA]

Well, Frank does what Frank does and he does it well. He's had somewhat of a monopoly on our best skaters for quite some time now. I happen to like his style (pointed toes, and all that), but there is certainly room for other coaching styles. Calling other top coaches... Hello top coaches ... Anybody out there?

In Russian skating their great skaters seem to move into coaching. Not so in the US. Now, I'm not saying a great skater necessarily makes a good, or even decent, coach. But somehow this seems to work better amongst Russians, and even other European countries, than for Americans. We definitely need to work on developing some good coaches.

 

[RobinA]

US Pairs needs a Russian coach someone like Igor Shpilband to take over the Pairs program like he did for US Ice Dancing. He is the reason that the US is now a world power in Ice Dancing.

I'm not sure this person would have to be Russian, just someone who is devoted to coaching and being good at it. There is room in the US at this point for someone to come along and pretty much start to build a Pairs program as did Shpilband in dance. And Yao Bin in China.

 

[Skategmt]

Is Frank really coaching Kanako? I can't find proof of it anywhere!

 

[dorispulaski]

Daisuke Murakami, not Kanako

 

[aromaticchicken]

To be honest.... Imo Kanako would benefit if she did get coached by him! ><

 

[Skategmt]

Daisuke Murakami, not Kanako

I saw Daisuke was being coached by him but that site says kanako has him as a coach.

 

[ice coverage]

I saw Daisuke was being coached by him but that site says kanako has him as a coach.

If by "that site," you are referring to the skatingmagazineblog entry by Amy Rosewater that is linked in post #49 of this thread:

It was noted earlier in the thread that its reference to Kanako was an error that has since been corrected. :yes:​

 

[ice coverage]

Tom Zakrajsek ‏@CoachTomZ

Working with mentor Frank Carroll is an amazing moment for @MaxTAaron and of course for me! #legend @USFigureSkating
8:28 AM - 6 Oct 2014
https://twitter.com/CoachTomZ/status/519147119744405504 (with photos)​

Angela Wang ‏@AngelaWangster

A huge thank you 2 @USFigureSkating 4 the incredible opportunity 2 work w/the legendary Mr. Carroll this past weekend
6:27 PM - 5 Oct 2014
https://twitter.com/AngelaWangster/status/518935484504895489 (with photo)​

@Scimeca_Knierim

What an amazing opportunity! Thanks @USFigureSkating! #legendary #FrankCarroll
11:52 AM - 6 Oct 2014
https://twitter.com/Scimeca_Knierim/status/519198648907739136 (with photo)​

 

[karne]

Okay. I think this definitely shows that he's not just "mentoring the coaches", he is actually working with their students. Which means this has long since crossed the line into CONFLICT OF INTEREST territory.

 

[mrrice]

Okay. I think this definitely shows that he's not just "mentoring the coaches", he is actually working with their students. Which means this has long since crossed the line into CONFLICT OF INTEREST territory.

I'm speaking for myself as someone who is currently judging for College and High School Dance Programs. In dance, it is not legal for any judge to spend more than 15 minutes with any group they could be judging. If a judge violates this rule and is caught, they are banned for life from their particular circuit. They are not however, banned from judging if they were to be hired by a different circuit. I don't agree with the rule as I believe it comes down to character. If they'd cheat in one circuit, I'd have a problem hiring them to judge for me however, it does happen.

Obviously it's different in skating as there are not multiple circuits. If Frank were mentoring Judges, that would be a problem.

Frank is not a judge so I don't really see it as a problem. You'll never get around his political influence as he's earned it. He's been there and done things that most judges would envy. If anyone should be upset, it's Gracie.

 

[aromaticchicken]

It certainly an interesting situation, since frank does also coach denis, who is presumably considered one of max's competitors.

I guess it would be an even more conundrum if we saw him working with ashley Wagner, for instance. But frankly, the US team needs so much help I'm okay with it as long as he is genuinely helping all the skaters he works with, which I think he is.

 

[IcyEdges]

Okay. I think this definitely shows that he's not just "mentoring the coaches", he is actually working with their students. Which means this has long since crossed the line into CONFLICT OF INTEREST territory.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with this. It's sanctioned by the USFS(A). Also, it's actually benefiting Max and other TEAM USA skaters that Carroll is working with. You should be thrilled. (Heck, I might actually be able to tolerate Max's skating this year).

 

[Amei]

I don't understand why you have such a problem with this. It's sanctioned by the USFS(A). Also, it's actually benefiting Max and other TEAM USA skaters that Carroll is working with. You should be thrilled. (Heck, I might actually be able to tolerate Max's skating this year).

I think where most of us take issue is that Frank coaches other skaters is that question of is he giving the best advice for the skater regardless of who the 'coach' of the skater is or will preferential treatment be given to his own skaters?

 

[SimplyAFan]

My question is "Who is working with Frank's skaters?" Yes, he is helping the US team, which is great. But what are his athletes doing in the meantime? Denis Ten didn't compete at Nebelhorn due to illness but I'm sure he's working hard to prepare for the GP. Gracie competed and placed third and has plenty of feedback to help her prepare. I wonder if he made arrangements for them to work with other coaches? If he want to semi-retire, I hope he told his skaters about his mentor role ahead of time and is giving them plenty of time to make arrangements (for next season).

Seeing him working with the athletes in Colorado, I really hope the coaches and athletes were inspired! He has so many experiences to draw from and I bet he would have great stories to tell.

 

[aromaticchicken]

I'm sure he is giving his students advance notice, he already said he wasn't going to take any more. And of course his own students will get preferential treatment from him, but that doesn't mean that he can't still help other skaters. Even incremental help from him is better than none at all :scowl:

 

[Icey]

This is all just window dressing imo, and I doubt some are being straight forward about how they really feel about it. What can you really accomplish in such a short period of time? I assume he is not spending weeks with them.