Free Dance

[jam tart]

Paul may be better but with Piper the team is definitely not 16 points better than R/H or P/I and is just not that close to the top. The Programs are gimmicky and ridiculous smiling does not count as connection. W/P have worked long and hard and are a dyno team on ice now. G/P b eing so close is a mockery.

I'm not qualified to debate scoring (for the record I was surprised how far ahead of fourth G/P were) but imo ridiculous smiling doesn't light up an audience the way G/P did yesterday. Sure audiences don't know a twizzle from a mazurka, but they know what they like and ridiculous smiling isn't it. And I don't really buy conspiracy theories when it comes to the judging. I think the judges are susceptible to the same thing I am - seeing a star in the making with Paul Poirier and being bedazzled by that. With C/P he was obviously talented but it almost always looked like he was skating with his older sister. The difference with Gilles is amaziing. It's like he grew up overnight. I could barely take my eyes off him and I bet the judges were the same. C/P had trouble reaching the audience. Whatever you think of their technical skills, G/P have already achieved that.

 

[Mrs. P]

Just watched the G/P FD, and all I can add to the discussion is that you should look at Piper's feet. Her edges are not very deep and I think with a much strict technically panel internationally you are looking at low 90s or even high 80s for that dance. Even when accounting for nationals inflation, that 100+ score is crazy.

I agree with an earlier poster that Skate Canada is doing them no favors by giving them these inflated scores because I think they will get hammered internationally.

 

[museksk8r]

actually, I believe Paul Poirier is a better skater than both Weaver/Poje as well.
museksk8r
Poirier may be a better skater, Giles may be a better skater but we are not comparing Poirier to Poje and Weaver to Giles, we are comparing the dance pair G/Pwith dance pair W/P and the dance pair G/P at the moment is much, much worse than team W/P. Judges should not be giving marks for what may be or may be not. Judges should give marks for what is. And presently dance pair G/P is not only much worse than dance pair W/P but is also worse than dance pair P/I. . Overall much worse. In my view.

But because ice dancing happens on skates and on ice, the quality of skating skills is a very important component that the judges look for. This isn't just dancing that is judged, but dancing and skating. This is not a ballroom dancing competition. Paul/Islam were far more cautious than Gilles/Poirier, who really attacked all of their program. In the beginning of their dance, there was actually a minor strange moment when Alexandra and Mitchell had a slight collision that I certainly noticed as awkward and a definite sign of their nerves last night. Paul/Islam also had a minor unison break in their twizzle section. I completely realize that at this point in time, Piper and Paul as a team are not at the level of Kaitlyn and Andrew as a team, so you are not presenting some revelation to me that I don't already know. And really, how in the world should Gilles and Poirier as a team be where Weaver and Poje are as a team when they haven't even been together a full year yet and haven't even skated on the GP circuit together, let alone have the experience of a 4CC, Worlds, or Olympics together. Ice dance is the most subjective of the skating disciplines and different people perceive and judge different things. Components like attack, unison, and speed stand out more to a judge's eyes than the slighter nuances like looks and facial expressions.

 

[jan]

But because ice dancing happens on skates and on ice, the quality of skating skills is a very important component that the judges look for. This isn't just dancing that is judged, but dancing and skating. This is not a ballroom dancing competition. Paul/Islam were far more cautious than Gilles/Poirier, who really attacked all of their program. In the beginning of their dance, there was actually a minor strange moment when Alexandra and Mitchell had a slight collision that I certainly noticed as awkward and a definite sign of their nerves last night. Paul/Islam also had a minor unison break in their twizzle section. I completely realize that at this point in time, Piper and Paul as a team are not at the level of Kaitlyn and Andrew as a team, so you are not presenting some revelation to me that I don't already know. And really, how in the world should Gilles and Poirier as a team be where Weaver and Poje are as a team when they haven't even been together a full year yet and haven't even skated on the GP circuit together, let alone have the experience of a 4CC, Worlds, or Olympics together. Ice dance is the most subjective of the skating disciplines and different people perceive and judge different things. Components like attack, unison, and speed stand out more to a judge's eyes than the slighter nuances like looks and facial expressions.

It is far easier to attack a program in a hand to hand hold. P/I may have appeared to have crashed as they were close enough for that to happen. G/P were never close enough..so therefore it did not happen. As well, I feel G/P had a free dance that minimized their weakness right now which is matching leg line. P/ I have a fabulous matching leg line which you can see as they are skating close together.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

But the judges are saying that G/P are close to where W/P are at, and ahead of where C/P were at when they ended.

 

[wasabi]

With C/P he was obviously talented but it almost always looked like he was skating with his older sister. The difference with Gilles is amaziing. It's like he grew up overnight. I could barely take my eyes off him and I bet the judges were the same. C/P had trouble reaching the audience. Whatever you think of their technical skills, G/P have already achieved that.

Frankly, I do not see the constant comparison to an older sister other than in KnC and trying to loosen up his nerves while on ice waiting for their names to be called. They had quite a few programs, particluary exhibitions that were quite touching and definitely gave you goose bumps, and that definitely did not make you think brother and sister. They did not have the romantic connection ala V/M, but I would put them with a similar connection to P/B, D/S, B/S to mention a few, a connection that is of mutual respect, friendship and liking. These latter are not romantic connections, and why should that be the standard that everyone has to meet anyway.

The exhibition from last year that they did at the COS Margaret Garrison show was light, fun filled and did reach the audience. They had standing Os along the way so I am not sure how you can say they did not reach the audience. There certainly was much competition with W/P in the last couple of years and it created a very strong us/them feeling with lots of rancor amongst some fans., but that was not W/P or C/P fault. As well, their programs were not as overtly in your face as W/P, so in comparison they may not have reached the audience the same way. And definitely in the last few months of their partnership there was something going on that showed on the ice, but that should not label their entire career together.

Paul growing up, yes somewhat, and that must add insult to injury For Vanessa, as it is something she saw in other partnerships (W/P perhaps) and wanted in hers and, from all accounts, found with Keiffer. Plus Paul is adding more to this performance now than just skating. But this should have been added by him to his partnership with Crone.

Gilles and Paul were given quirky music, quirky programs hiding deficiencies, quirky costumes, an inordinate amount of PR and politicking, plus there has been an underlying sentiment created that he was left stranded to his own devices after the partnership broke up , implying she walked away. Given their strengths, I bet C/P could have done something great if they had been given quirky and fun.

But the judges are saying that G/P are close to where W/P are at, and ahead of where C/P were at when they ended.

Which is highly questionable. C&P had technical difficulty and prowess, they made difficult moves look easy, and they were fluid and equally matched. Delightfully, W&P have surpassed where Crone and Poirier were last year. So with Gilles, Poirier should be around 90. Honestly, everyone was hoping Weaver and Poje would finally cross 100, for Poirier to get that first time out of the gate, well W/P must be incensed.

 

[jam tart]

Frankly, I do not see the constant comparison to an older sister other than in KnC and trying to loosen up his nerves while on ice waiting for their names to be called. . ....

Paul growing up, yes and that must add insult to injury For Vanessa, as it is something she saw in other partnerships (W/P perhaps) and wanted in hers and, from all accounts, found with Keiffer. Plus Paul is adding more to the performance now than just skating. But this should have been added by him to his partnership with Crone.

.

If it's a constant comparison, then more than one of us saw it. Human relationships are not something you can turn on and off with a light switch - so blaming Poirier because he's found something with Gilles that he couldn't find with Crone doesn't seem quite fair. I do miss Crone's light, quick skating and I hope she finds someone up to her abilities to skate with.

 

[wasabi]

If it's a constant comparison, then more than one of us saw it. Human relationships are not something you can turn on and off with a light switch - so blaming Poirier because he's found something with Gilles that he couldn't find with Crone doesn't seem quite fair. I do miss Crone's light, quick skating and I hope she finds someone up to her abilities to skate with.

My point is the comparison is apt in the pre skate and in the KnC where he chose to receive all the attention that coach and partner gave him and not return any concern or attention to Vanessa. And this is what people are translating to the ice. IMHO their on ice connection was similarly platonic to the other mentioned teams and not sibling like.

 

[wasabi]

I could barely take my eyes off him and I bet the judges were the same. . .

Yes, he is very good. So maybe he deserves the marks and should go back to singles. But this is a team event and she does not hit the mark in appeal or skill.

 

[heyhey]

Quick question: With regards to Worlds this year in ice-dance, what does the Canadian team have to do to retain 3 teams for next year?

 

[skatingfan04]

I guess I was the exception, because I never found Paul to be particularly fantastic ice dancer. There is no doubt that his technical ability was and still is incredible, but from the waist up, he always seemed really stiff to me. Also, his expression was never really believable to me either. I felt he either wasn't expressive enough or was so over the top that it looked fake. I will admit he seemes to have improved quite a bit in both respects this season. He does have a better connection with Gilles, and seemes more at ease that he did with Crone. That's hardly saying much, though. C/P always seemed a little tense to me, and they really didn't have much chemistry either, IMO. In those respects, I like this pairing better that C/P. That being said, G/P hardly have the connection of V/M, W/P, P/I (who admittedly were unusually subdued in that respect in previous competitions this season, for obvious reasons) and R/H (who I actually think have a fabulous connection).

 

[tulosai]

Quick question: With regards to Worlds this year in ice-dance, what does the Canadian team have to do to retain 3 teams for next year?

Very little. V&M will finish no lower than 2nd, so W/P need to finish in the top 11 (or top 12 if V/M get 1st). It should be VERY doable.

 

[heyhey]

Very little. V&M will finish no lower than 2nd, so W/P need to finish in the top 11 (or top 12 if V/M get 1st). It should be VERY doable.

Thanks for the info!

 

[rain]

Wow, lots of controversy over the new team. My two cents: I think Paul Poirier has come alive and for the first time I really noticed what an impressive skater he is. I loved Crone/Poirier and was sad and surprised when they split after last year's admittedly disappointing season, but clearly Poirier did the right thing for himself and it's very visible on the ice. Piper Gilles is not at his level and I can only hope she, Poirier and their coaches are very realistic about this and are ready to buckle down and bring her skating level up. I particularly noticed her messy free leg with very lacking extensions. It was very noticeable compared to all the rest of the top 5 or 6 teams. That said, I think P/G are a very exciting new team and I would not be surprised to see them gel quickly and rise fast.

My biggest beef with this competition was that I felt V/M were not given their due in the scoring. I almost got the impression that the judges were deliberately holding them down in order to make it look like more of a close competition. It's not. I know W/P have improved a lot, but they are still not at V/M's level and should not have been marked as such. And yes, I mean even in the short dance, with the error.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Thanks, sf04.. it was pretty late. Still, I see O/W as really making a great debut and that artificial split in the competition means they aren't seen to be in the company they deserve to be in, and actually were competitive with, by the scores.

And thanks,doris..I'll remember that , because this isn't the first post I've lost. But in this case , I managed to turn off my whole computer..never mind how, exactly ( but it involves a dog , a toe , a coffee and a power bar....)

P/I ..I'm so relieved to see them looking more like themselves after what has to have been the season from hell for them, and the costume fanatic in me was simply delighted with the change of dress for her. :thumbsup: Given that their scores were so close to those of R/H, I don't know that the finish sits all that well with me . Their refinement , flow, lines and genuine expression count for a lot in my eyes.

OTOH, I'm very happy with the improvements R/H have made this year in their FD ( not the SD). The improvements are undeniable and R/H deserve a lot of credit.( So I'm not outraged with their finish ... except when I realize that the difference is due to the SD marks , then it rankles a bit..) I sort of feel badly for them that they have to take that much of a back seat to G/P ...

:scowl:I'm resentful that I'm forced to have this reaction to G/P , because they're coming together quite nicely , and I want to be able to view them with a more appreciative eye ..but they're not anything like the revelation that we're being asked to believe they are , and I just hate it when I feel someone is trying to hoodwink me.

ETA: whoever said that Piper Gilles is a better skater than Alex Paul.... what you're smoking is illegal . As Mrs. P said, look at the feet...not to mention the leg line, and the ease of movement, etc. , etc...

 

[pangtongfan]

I felt the scores of all the teams were fine for Nationals scoring, although V/M should have been higher probably. To those saying Gilles & Poirier would never get those scores at Worlds, well duh it is a Nationals event. Inflated scoring is to be expected at Nationals. I think relative to the other teams they were scored correctly.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Still too, too much of a boost. We are speaking relatively , and many of us are not buying the bill of goods.

 

[museksk8r]

ETA: whoever said that Piper Gilles is a better skater than Alex Paul.... what you're smoking is illegal .

News to me. I don't recall anybody saying that.

 

[tulosai]

Wow, lots of controversy over the new team. My two cents: I think Paul Poirier has come alive and for the first time I really noticed what an impressive skater he is. I loved Crone/Poirier and was sad and surprised when they split after last year's admittedly disappointing season, but clearly Poirier did the right thing for himself and it's very visible on the ice. Piper Gilles is not at his level and I can only hope she, Poirier and their coaches are very realistic about this and are ready to buckle down and bring her skating level up. I particularly noticed her messy free leg with very lacking extensions. It was very noticeable compared to all the rest of the top 5 or 6 teams. That said, I think P/G are a very exciting new team and I would not be surprised to see them gel quickly and rise fast.

My biggest beef with this competition was that I felt V/M were not given their due in the scoring. I almost got the impression that the judges were deliberately holding them down in order to make it look like more of a close competition. It's not. I know W/P have improved a lot, but they are still not at V/M's level and should not have been marked as such. And yes, I mean even in the short dance, with the error.

I don't know. I've looked at the protocols and V/M had VERY high PCS's especially in the free. They were dinged on them EVER so slightly in the short, but IMO deservedly so (I believe the lowest in ANY segment by ANY judge for the short was 8.75 and they had MANY 9.5 and above). They also (in general) got very good GOE's in both the short and the long. Even in the twizzles in the short they ended up with a slightly positive GOE and only one judge gave them a -1 which IMO was what they probably deserved. Their real issue here was their inability to get all (or, for them, even close to all) level 4's in both the short and the free. They are capable of doing it and if they had done it and avoided the error on the twizzles/subsequent slightly lackluster preformance in the short their score would have been MUCH higher. The judges were not holding them down on purpose- from what I see the judges wanted badly to reward them but were unable to do so to a greater degree.

The REALTIVE scoring of he top 3 teams however is a different question, but one I don't feel adaquately able to address quickly here.

 

[colleen o'neill]

museksk8tr.. I stand corrected .. it was Ilovefigures who said Piper was as good as Alex or Kharis..which is not any more credible to me...