GP Series: Is it really THAT exhausting?

[Doggygirl]

The third event is optional. They get no points, but they can test the program in front of judges again and, of course, get the prize money. And for the poor skaters that don't like to travel, I sure remember that a couple of years ago or so, it was certainly not abnormal to accept the third assignment. This year Johnny Weir also chose to do his third assignment. Nobody forced him to, but he chose it this way.

And ITA with the rest of your post.

LOL - please notice my insert "if the travel schedule is so grueling..."

DG

 

[Piel]

As long as it has not been mandatory for skaters to skate the GP what does it matter who does or does'nt participate? I don't think that you can judge a person's love for the sport or competition merely on the number of competitions they choose to compete in. Unlike more traditional team sports figure skating has been a sport that an individual to a degree can choose their competitions and/or shows around their personal desires to maybe even (gasp) have a life outside of skating.

We always complain about the judges giving scores based on reputation rather than what was actually skated. So even if the only time a skater competed was once every four years at the Olympics, if they win it is because they were the best that competiton.

 

[RIskatingfan]

IMO here is what the argument is about. These are not necessarily my feelings about the GP.(snip)

You forgot about fans who don't necessarily have favorites they root for above all, but really enjoy figure skating and don't want to see the decline and get to a point where we'll have less and less skating. That would be me

LOL - please notice my insert "if the travel schedule is so grueling..."

Oops LOL Let's just say I was making sure everyone else understood perfectly what you meant

 

[Mathman]

There's rules everywhere and each worker has to follow them. How many times don't I wish I could have a different schedule and suit it to my wishes.

To me, that's the whole point in a nutshell. The skaters are not employees of the ISU. The ISU does not make contracts with skaters. The ISU does not pay salaries to skaters. What the ISU does is organize and sanction events in which skaters may compete for titles and prizes.

As Piel says, other sports are organized differently. The Miami Heat negotiated a contract with Shaquille O'neal. $20,000,000 in exchange for 82 regular season games and the playoffs. Sign here. If you are injured, you still get paid and the ballclub collects from their insurance company.

This is fair, for the simple reason that both sides agree to the bargain.

Both sides agree to the bargain.

Oops, did I repeat that part?

Mathman

 

[Mathman]

You forgot about fans who don't necessarily have favorites they root for above all, but really enjoy figure skating and don't want to see the decline and get to a point where we'll have less and less skating. That would be me

Well, I agree to this extent. All skaters who agree with RIskatingfan and Doggygirl should do the Grand Prix.

Those who don't, should not.

Everyone is happy.

That is the perfect solution.

MM

 

[RIskatingfan]

To me, that's the whole point in a nutshell. The skaters are not employees of the ISU. The ISU does not make contracts with skaters. The ISU does not pay salaries to skaters. What the ISU does is organize and sanction events in which skaters may compete for titles and prizes.

FIFA and UEFA do not make individual contracts with football players (soccer for you I guess) and yet, they're the supreme authorities on football, over national federations (who also don't pay a cent to the players). Not everything in life is about employers and employees. Perhaps this is also a "cultural" thing?LOL

The ISU is formed by the federations and is there to be the "unbiased" part of the game and, idealistically, promote the sport with benefits to all. You might agree or disagree with their measures, but I don't see the point of questioning the legitimacy. Now, skaters don't have to follow the ISU rules if they don't wish...

 

[Mathman]

FIFA and UEFA do not make individual contracts with football players (soccer for you I guess) and yet, they're the supreme authorities on football, over national federations (who also don't pay a cent to the players). Not everything in life is about employers and employees. Perhaps this is also a "cultural" thing?LOL

The "Supreme Authority?" I don't know what role culture plays, but for me, there is just something about lavishing praise on the "Supreme Authority" that rubs me the wrong way.

Take DoggyGirl , for instance. She objects to paying taxes. Up the establishment. I agree.

The ISU is formed by the federations and is there to be the "unbiased" part of the game

and, idealistically, promote the sport with benefits to all. You might agree or disagree with their measures, but I don't see the point of questioning the legitimacy.

Who said anything about questioning their legitimacy?

Now, skaters don't have to follow the ISU rules if they don't wish...

Thank you! That is my whole point.

Mathman

 

[Piel]

You forgot about fans who don't necessarily have favorites they root for above all, but really enjoy figure skating and don't want to see the decline and get to a point where we'll have less and less skating. That would be me

With more injuries comes less skating. If a skater feels they can have a longer career by limiting the number of times they compete and travel they are in their way preserving the sport. I don't think it's fair to accuse those who choose this option of being less worthy competitors. The bottom line is (again) if they are following ISUs and their own Federations rules there is nothing wrong with this strategy.

Now, skaters don't have to follow the ISU rules if they don't wish...

If they are optional are they rules or just an ISU wish list?

Isn't it really a very few skaters that we are talking about not doing the GP. Specifically Kwan, Kwan, and Kwan, Irina (sick), Plushy (injured), Sasha (injured), Kwan, Kwan, and Kwan? Since no one is bitching about those who are injured or sick not competing the issue it seems is Kwan choosing not to do the GP yet participating in Nationals and Worlds. And it comes down to the fans of her competitors either want more chances to try to beat her via the Grand Prix. OR they want her banned from Nationals, Worlds, and Olympics to make it easier for their favs to win. For those who are non fans, what does it matter?

I find it very hard to believe that anyone can watch a competition and not be pulling for SOMEONE to win.

 

[katherine2001]

I guess if the skaters are all that worried about injuries, they could skip the COI tour and the cheesefests.

 

[RIskatingfan]

The "Supreme Authority?" I don't know what role culture plays, but for me, there is just something about lavishing praise on the "Supreme Authority" that rubs me the wrong way.

Take DoggyGirl , for instance. She objects to paying taxes. Up the establishment. I agree.

I'm not sure what you're talking about LOL, probably politics, although I don't see what politics or taxes adds much to the subject of the thread. I was talking about skating and other sports. I don't know what "supreme authority" means to you, but when I go to my dictionary and translate these two words, they mean we're talking about the highest governing body of for example, a sport. Is there some sort of tabu I'm not aware of concerning this expression? Or you are suggesting that because the ISU is an authority (or whatever you wish to name it) we can't agree with them even when we think they're doing the right thing?

Thank you! That is my whole point.

Of course the skaters don't have to follow the ISU rules. They can turn pro Although I personally don't think it makes that much of a difference, doors close as the skaters make commitments. I remember Yagudin wanting to go to Dortmund last season for a couple of days (on a short break of SOI) and the management didn't let him because they were afraid he got stuck in an airport and couldn't make it to the next show. Even in pro skating there are restrictions, as you see, and sometimes not even having directly to do with their skating.

 

[Piel]

I guess if the skaters are all that worried about injuries, they could skip the COI tour and the cheesefests.

The point is they have CHOICES. LOL isn't that one of the perks of being successful....it expands your CHOICES?

Of course the skaters don't have to follow the ISU rules. They can turn pro

That's more like it. Finally the heart of the matter. All together now..........

Michelle either skate the Gran Prix and give the other gals more chances to beat you, turn pro so that you can't win any more titles, or quit COI and the cheesefests. It is not fair for you to be a legend and rich!.

 

[RIskatingfan]

With more injuries comes less skating. If a skater feels they can have a longer career by limiting the number of times they compete and travel they are in their way preserving the sport. I don't think it's fair to accuse those who choose this option of being less worthy competitors. The bottom line is (again) if they are following ISUs and their own Federations rules there is nothing wrong with this strategy.

Since your post is a reply to mine... I didn't accuse anyone of being a "less worthy competitor"...? Where did you get that from my posts? What I said is that I think skaters who have many options about their events for the season, look a lot at the $$$. It's perfectly understandable, obviously. And it is my belief that if the prize money hadn't been reduced, we wouldn't see skaters like Kwan or Plushenko exchanging the GP events for cheesefests. Actually, I'm not even sure I'll include Kwan here because she had skipped the GP before.

In the end, this is my reply to the "is the GP that exhausting?" question. I don't think it is - I think the skaters find it worth it if the prize money is appealing. When it is not, and they have other places where to skate, they go this way. It's not a matter of health or travelling to me, it's a matter of prize money and what events are more worth doing.

It was reported that Cohen is skating on COI with a groin injury. She pulled out from the GP because of an injury, though. Kwan also prefers to skate less, apparently to keep healthy. But she's also on tour now, reportedly landing 5 or 6 triples each night. Wouldn't this be exhausting? All the travelling and so much triples? Plushenko also pulled out of the GP because of injury but in the same weekend of Skate Canada, he was participating in a smaller event in Russia where he landed his full arsenal of jumps, quads included. So IMO -> it's not the GP that is exhausting, it's just that the prize money might not be enough the effort.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

To me, that's the whole point in a nutshell. The skaters are not employees of the ISU. The ISU does not make contracts with skaters. The ISU does not pay salaries to skaters. What the ISU does is organize and sanction events in which skaters may compete for titles and prizes.

As Piel says, other sports are organized differently. The Miami Heat negotiated a contract with Shaquille O'neal. $20,000,000 in exchange for 82 regular season games and the playoffs. Sign here. If you are injured, you still get paid and the ballclub collects from their insurance company.

This is fair, for the simple reason that both sides agree to the bargain.

Both sides agree to the bargain.

Oops, did I repeat that part?

Mathman

Exactly. The skaters aren't obligated to the ISU nor are they on their payroll. They are just competitors competing for medals, and indirectly, for spots for their federation for the next season's big championships.

 

[LegalGirl82]

With more injuries comes less skating. If a skater feels they can have a longer career by limiting the number of times they compete and travel they are in their way preserving the sport. I don't think it's fair to accuse those who choose this option of being less worthy competitors. The bottom line is (again) if they are following ISUs and their own Federations rules there is nothing wrong with this strategy.

I agree, Piel, and choosing this option can vary from year to year and skater to skater. I did a little research this afternoon, and this is what I found:

Irina has competed in 90 competitions from 1992 through Worlds '05. The most competitions she did in one season was 2000/2001, when she competed 11 times. The rest of the years vary, four years she did 7 comps, two years she did 8 comps, etc.

Michelle has competed in 105 competitions from 1992 through Marshall's this past week. Heather's site lists the comps by calendar year, not competitive year, so it's hard to get an idea of her seasonal stats. But in the calendar years 1998 and 2000, she competed 11 times. She's had several years where she did 9 comps.

Elena Liashenko competed 50 times between 1992 and 2001. The site I found for her was not up to date. Elena should be the poster girl for the ISU, and I am not being sarcastic or demeaning in any way when I say that. She competes in the GP every year, Euros, her Nats and Worlds when she qualifies.

Sasha (bearing in mind, of course, that she is younger than the other three) has competed 53 times since 1996. She did her first senior GP in 2000 and has been to 2 GP Finals since then.

Take from this what you will. In the end, each of these ladies has followed the existing rules of the ISU and her national federation, all the while following her own individual course.

The GP Series (not the original, stand alone events) and the Final have been around less than 10 years. In that 10 years it has been fiddled with constantly. I even remember one year Irina remarked (with tongue in cheek) to the press that they would get points for the exhibition. I wonder if the ISU has ever thought to ask the skaters or even the Federations for their suggestions/input on how it should be set up.

 

[R.D.]

Hi DG. First, I think there are two reasons why some skaters elect to do a thrid, non-scoring, event. One is to win some extra prize money and the other is to prevent their competitors from earning points towards the GP final.

I always thought that was a cool aspect of the competition. Let's say you have 13 points already in your two scoring events, which puts you on the bubble for the final. Your chief competitor got third in her first scoring event and this is her second. If you can beat her, you don't get any points yourself, but you can keep her off the podium and stop her from gaining enough points to take your spot!

Now that's what I'm talking about! That's competition!

So...the skaters who feel that way should do the Grand Prix and those who don't feel that way shouldn't.

What is more boring than a so-called competition where the athletes don't want to be there in the first place?

Mathman

Interesting concept. I've never thought of it that way...

 

[LegalGirl82]

Kwan also prefers to skate less, apparently to keep healthy. But she's also on tour now, reportedly landing 5 or 6 triples each night.

RIskatingfan, for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that this will drop off now that the last cheesefest has taken place. I've been to COI for 7 of the last 8 years, and Michelle never does 5-6 triples at COI. I'm almost certain she was doing them at the beginning of COI to keep herself trained for Marshalls.

 

[R.D.]

RIskatingfan, for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that this will drop off now that the last cheesefest has taken place. I've been to COI for 7 of the last 8 years, and Michelle never does 5-6 triples at COI. I'm almost certain she was doing them at the beginning of COI to keep herself trained for Marshalls.

Can anyone who has been to COI recently confirm this?

 

[Piel]

I personally think that the ISU has allowed way too much cherry picking and that in fairness the playing field come Worlds is not even. Weir and Shizuka are examples of those who had heavy schedules and who had a toll on them during Worlds

So if a skater doesn't do the GP they are more rested come Worlds? If the ISU who decides these things agrees then they must make it a rule. If it wasn't a rule then too bad.

In the long run it comes down to how much heart and effort you want to put into your season. Every skater has different levels of commitment and desire in their skating efforts.

This can vary between skaters. I think Kwan has just as much heart, puts in just as much effort, and has just as much committment and desire as Irina. Irina had a more touching story and may have needed the money more. Doesn''t make her have any more heart unless you count the one on the costume.

IMO the prize money reduction made it less appealing, more so when there are other events that are probably a bit easier and pay more.

And your point is?

Many athletes in many international sports handle grueling travel, training, etc. for a competitive season each year. I don't consider National Championships and World Championships (two events) to be a viable sporting event season.

Thats why the ISU and national Feds make the rules instead of the fans.

An example, Kwan. She missed the GP because, according to what she said to the press, she wanted to study the new system and train and prepare well for the big events. And what was the result? A less stellar showing at Nationals and subpar performances at Worlds. I don't want to start a discussion about her, this is one example of a skater who stayed home to train and didn't do as well as, for example, Irina Slutskaya who had a long season and showed up very strong at Worlds, eventually winning the title. Doesn't seem all that obvious to me how not doing the GP is better for their performances...

Irina had an exceptionally good year and Kwan had an exceptionally bad year (for her standards). I don't think you can draw anything from that comparison. There were other contributing factors to both of their performances other than participating in the GP.

But fans always try to find reasons why their favorites do what they do (and we're talking about a minority, the big stars, who make lots of money and win titles). So suddenly the GP series is too exhausting that they can't show up at Worlds prepared. Please. They're skaters, athletes. Not porcelain dolls.

One more time... they (Kwan)exercised her CHOICE that was PERFECTLY WITHIN THE RULES SHE WAS GOVERENED BY.

LOL - please notice my insert "if the travel schedule is so grueling..."

Oops LOL Let's just say I was making sure everyone else understood perfectly what you meant

These are the kind of comments that make me think you think less of Kwan for not doing the GP.

Since you don't have favorite why not enjoy the skaters whenever they CHOOSE to compete whether it be GP or cheese?

 

[R.D.]

I could care less if Kwan does the GP or not. Whatever she does, she'll face the consequences and/or reap the benefits. Same thing with everyone else.

 

[LegalGirl82]

Can anyone who has been to COI recently confirm this?

Red Dog, I believe she's done 3 triples, standard, each time I've seen her at COI. I will be going to COI at the Meadowlands tomorrow, but I won't be able to post until Tuesday. If no one else has reported back by then, I will.