Grand Prix Final - Men's Free Skate - LIVE!!!!!!!!!!

[Ptichka]

You have a point, but it's all that level nonsense. What's difficult for one is not so difficult for another.

Actually, this has nothing to do with levels since Li's skating elements score was well above Buttle's.

 

[mzheng]

Actually, this has nothing to do with levels since Li's skating elements score was well above Buttle's.

Li lost at his ridiculas low PCS scores. IMO, not necessary higher than Buttle, but should be higher in its own merrit, especially the SS score.

 

[hockeyfan228]

In the SP, Li's base for jumps was 22, because even though he did a 4T/3T, combination he doubled the required triple jump (loop in his case), and he also received -3 marks across the board, which is required when a skater substitutes an element for a required element. Buttle's base for jumps was 23. Li received a net GOE of +1.8 on his jumps, while Buttle received a net GOE of +1, leaving Buttle .2 ahead on jumps.

For the other elements, Li had all L1's and GOE of base for four elements and -.24 for his final spin. Buttle had four L2's and one L1 and positive GOE for four of elements and one base score, leaving Buttle 4.66 ahead on other elements because of combined higher levels and GOE. Buttle's overall technical score was 4.84 points above Li's.

In the LP, Li's base for jumps was 53.1 for eight elements. Buttle's base for jumps was 49.7 for seven elements. It would have been 51.3, had Buttle performed solo 2A and solo 3S as jump elements 7 and 8, instead of 2A+3S Seq as jump element 7. Had Buttle fully rotated a 2A or 3T as his eighth jump element, his base would have been 53.3 or 53.7, respectively, with time bonus.

So why was Buttle's jump base with seven elements so close to Li's jump base with eight, and why could Buttle, with another low-level (for Men) jump have exceeded Li's base, if Li had two quads? First, Buttle had two 3A's, while Li had only one, and through a strange quirk in CoP, was given credit for the second as a phantom "combo" due to the fall on the first. (I cannot explain this.) Second, Buttle performed two 3F's -- the first in combination -- and received a time bonus for the second, while Li performed none, and third, Buttle had a time bonus on his 3Z. Fourth, the difference in base between 4T/2T and 3F/3T is only .8, because while it is more difficult to perform a quad, it is also more difficult to add a triple to the end of a combination, and the 2T doesn't go very far in points (1.3).

In GOE, Buttle lost -2.2 on his jumps, making back some of the -4.2 he lost on the 3F/3T combo and the fall on the 3A with positive GOE on the rest of his jumps except the last sequence, and netting 47.5 points for jumps. Li, with a superlative jump performance, gained 4.6 points in GOE on his jumps, netting 57.7 on his jumps, or a difference of +10.2.

In other elements, Li had one L2 element (straightline step sequence), and five L1's, for a base of 12.3, and net GOE of -.24, for a total of 12.06. Buttle had four L2's and two L1's, for a base of 14.1 and net GOE of 2.5, for a total of 16.6, or a difference of 4.54. The difference in tech between the skaters was 5.66 in Li's favor in the LP, and .86 over both programs, which is virtually equal.

The PC scores in the SP were:

PC/Buttle/Li/Diff
SS 7.4/6.55/0.85
TR 7.45/6.05/1.4
PE 7.4/6.3/1.1
CH 7.2/6.15/1.05
IN 7.5/6.2/1.3

Total 36.95/31.25/5.7
Avg 7.39/6.25/1.14

The PC scores in the LP were:

P/CButtle/Li/Diff
SS 7.6/6.85/0.75
TR 7.45/6.2/1.25
PE 7.65/6.7/0.95
CH 7.55/6.35/1.2
IN 7.8/6.6/1.2

Total 38.05/32.7/5.35
Avg 7.61/6.54/1.07

The average PC score for each skater was similar in the SP and the LP; the impact of the difference was magnified by 2, when the LP PC scores were weighted by 2.

*The SP tech numbers say that Buttle had a slightly stronger jump performance due to Li's mistake on the required steps into the triple, and a stronger technical performance on non-jump elements.

*The LP tech numbers say that Li had a much stronger jump performance than Buttle, partly due to superior execution and difficulty, and partly due to Buttle's fall on the 3A, a minor deduction on the combination,and the missing jump element. They also say that 50% of the jump deficit was countered by Buttle's higher difficulty and better execution of non-jump elements.

*For both the SP and LP, the numbers say that Li has great jump technique and consistently good execution, but performs a combination of the hardest jumps and the easier jumps, while Buttle's jump technique on the whole isn't as prodigious, and while he doesn't perform the most difficult jumps, he does do the spectrum of medium hard to hard jumps, with above base GOE on most of them. The also say that Li is an adequate performer of simple spins and circular footwork, while Buttle is an above average performer of more difficult spins and circular footwork. Each one made a major mistake on a jump, Li in the SP and Buttle in the LP.

*For both the SP and LP, the PC numbers say that Buttle was stronger in each component -- remembering that in the definition of Performance/Execution, Performance is defined more on the "woo-woo" scale than on technique -- by about one full grade each; that this was true for choreography, performance, interpretation, and transitions shouldn't be a surprise, given the complexity of Buttle's non-jump elements and some of his jump entrances.

From another angle, the numbers also say that in the LP, Li's advantage in jumps (10.2) nearly matched Buttles advantage in Program Components (10.7, after weighting), leaving the non-jump elements as the deciding factor in the LP.

So, is the argument that Buttle's non-jump elements were assigned levels that were too high? That his execution of these elements was given too high GOE's? That Li's non-jump elements were "under-leveled"? That Li's non-jump elements were graded too low? That using the criteria for each grade (1-10) for program components, Buttle's should have been lower than 7's, or that Li's should have been higher than 6's? Other?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the first 3A which Buttle fell on was to be a combo. I believe the Tech Specialist gets the list of planned elements. The second was to be a 3A and therefore, was judged accordingly. I'm speculating that was the decision of the Techn Specialist, and if 'intent' is strong in figure skating we have to accept it.

Some elements are guided by the 'intent' rule others are downgraded by the 1/4 turn landing rule.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

I think the first 3A which Buttle fell on was to be a combo. I believe the Tech Specialist gets the list of planned elements. The second was to be a 3A and therefore, was judged accordingly. I'm speculating that was the decision of the Techn Specialist, and if 'intent' is strong in figure skating we have to accept it.

It's clear that the rule is if the combo is in the plan (and possibly validated that it belongs in the program through practices), the second attempt is credited as an attempted combo, and is not in violation of the Zayak rule. There's also another rule that if the skater gets up from a fall and attempts the second jump in the combo or sequence, that the second jump counts as its own element; they clearly are discouraging the skater from adding anything after the fall. What I can't explain why the ISU made the decision to score in this way.

Some elements are guided by the 'intent' rule others are downgraded by the 1/4 turn landing rule.

Joe

I haven't seen any evidence of this on the protocols, where a skater's third attempt a has been given a "downgrade" in order to attribute any points to the skater. I've seen that the "intended" combo has been attributed to the skater uniformly, and where only the third attempt has been given zero value, if attempted.

What is the strangest rule for intent, IMO, is treating flutzes as flawed lutzes and lips as flawed flips. I agree with you that they should be called at whatever edge they jump off of, with the only exception being flat-edge take-offs. It's not as if the skaters don't know ahead of time whether they can enter the jump on the appropriate edge. If they plan two lutzes and one or two flips (or vice versa), and perform two flutzes and a flip (or two lutzes and a lip), the third jump should be disqualified.

 

[Ptichka]

or that Li's should have been higher than 6's?

That's my opinion. (I was quite happy with elements score; I would not have wanted to see a greater difference between Li and Buttle there).

Skating Skills. This is one part where I though that not only were Li's scores too low, but Buttle's too high as well. I felt that Buttle's mistakes did hurt his "Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns", "Flow and effortless glide". He may have greate skating skills in general, but they were hurt by his mistakes in this performance. On the other hand, I felt that Li had good flow, sureness, and energy. Perhaps Buttle's Skating Skills score should have still been higher than Li's, but I don't think it should have been such a huge difference.

Transitions. Perhaps this is fair.

Performance/ Execution. This is especially where feel that Buttle's mistakes should have been penalized, and Li's clean performance rewarded.

Choreography/ Composition. May be this was correct.

Interpretation. This is a tough one. I gues I'd say that Buttle's score here was fair, but Li's too low. While he is not the most charismatic of performers, I felt that in that particular performance he did have good "Effortless movement in time to the music", though I agree that his "Use of *finesse to reflect the nuances of the music" is still far inferior to Buttle's.

Finally, let me just add that none of this is meant as anything negative about Buttle. I agree that right now he is overall a stronger skater than Li. This nit picking I'm doing above is just to explain why I thought Li's score should have been higher.

 

[hockeyfan228]

That's my opinion. (I was quite happy with elements score; I would not have wanted to see a greater difference between Li and Buttle there).

Skating Skills. This is one part where I though that not only were Li's scores too low, but Buttle's too high as well. I felt that Buttle's mistakes did hurt his "Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns", "Flow and effortless glide". He may have greate skating skills in general, but they were hurt by his mistakes in this performance. On the other hand, I felt that Li had good flow, sureness, and energy. Perhaps Buttle's Skating Skills score should have still been higher than Li's, but I don't think it should have been such a huge difference.

Performance/ Execution. This is especially where feel that Buttle's mistakes should have been penalized, and Li's clean performance rewarded.

I haven't see Li's skate, but I did see the download file for Buttle's. Buttle made two mistakes in his program: a turn-out on the 3T in his 3F/3T combo, and a fall on the 3A. On the other hand, from about the 30 second mark, his program was full of flowing movements, beautiful run-out on his solo jumps, changes of direction and edge --one of the SS criteria is "Mastery of multi-directional skating" -- footwork that received positive GOE, transitions into elements, like Spread Eagle into jump, traveling 3's with a straight leg position into a camel spin -- another SS criterion is "mastery of one-foot skating" -- movements like the spread eagle in plie on a skidded edge, and positive GOE on difficult spins, which includes exits from them. All of this would indicate "cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns" for the majority of his program.

According to the protocols, Li also made two mistakes, on spins, so his program wasn't completely clean, either, although he didn't have a major stumble. While I haven't seen Li's performance in this competition, I have seen the two of them live, and their basic skating -- gliding around the rink and gaining blade speed -- is on two different levels. Li is not an exemplar of "flow and effortless glide." I didn't see anything other than excellent "balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement" from Buttle.

The criteria for "Performance/Execution" are:

*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement
*Carriage
*Style and individuality/personality
*Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast
*Projection

(and more for pairs and ice dancing)

I'm not sure how the fall and turnout affected Buttle's performance in any of these categories. If anything, he did not let his errors affect his involvement with the program.

 

[Vash01]

I haven't see Li's skate, but I did see the download file for Buttle's.
Li is not an exemplar of "flow and effortless glide." I didn't see anything other than excellent "balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement" from Buttle.

The criteria for "Performance/Execution" are:

*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement
*Carriage
*Style and individuality/personality
*Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast
*Projection

(and more for pairs and ice dancing)

I'm not sure how the fall and turnout affected Buttle's performance in any of these categories. If anything, he did not let his errors affect his involvement with the program.

Actually Buttle's mistakes - particularly the fall on the triple axel- did affect the flow of his program (I saw both programs on TV). Some of his jumps appeared labored (I don't know if they always are that way). In this competition Li was surer of himself. Buttle had great musical interpretation, but his mistakes should have cost him something. The fact they did not- and he even got credit for a combination he did not even attempt-, indicates that the COP needs to be tweaked to reward actual performance, and penalize major mistakes.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Actually Buttle's mistakes - particularly the fall on the triple axel- did affect the flow of his program (I saw both programs on TV). Some of his jumps appeared labored (I don't know if they always are that way). In this competition Li was surer of himself. Buttle had great musical interpretation, but his mistakes should have cost him something. The fact they did not- and he even got credit for a combination he did not even attempt-, indicates that the COP needs to be tweaked to reward actual performance, and penalize major mistakes.

I'll have to wait until tomorrow to compare the performances, but it is not true the Buttle received credit for a combination he didn't perform -- he received credit for a 3A that did not count as a second solo, thus violating the Zayak rule. CoP, for whatever reason, penalizes the skater for performing the second jump after falling; otherwise, chances are, Buttle would have performed at least a 2T when he got up, like skaters often did under 6.0, to avoid the Zayak violation.

It's interesting that you found his jumps labored, because he had good height, rotation, and run-out on six of them -- including the opening 3F -- but if they were, it wouldn't be the first time the judges didn't score appropriately.

While his flow might have been affected by a fall in the beginning of his program, it was superb after the fall, and there are a handful of other criteria in Skating Skills in which he excelled. Performance/Execution does not address any problems the fall might have raised; it addresses another set of criteria entirely, although the name of the component is misleading.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually Buttle's mistakes - particularly the fall on the triple axel- did affect the flow of his program (I saw both programs on TV). Some of his jumps appeared labored (I don't know if they always are that way). In this competition Li was surer of himself. Buttle had great musical interpretation, but his mistakes should have cost him something. The fact they did not- and he even got credit for a combination he did not even attempt-, indicates that the COP needs to be tweaked to reward actual performance, and penalize major mistakes.

When a skater falls I agree it affects the flow of the program, and the skater receives a 1 point deduction. Am I correct? (I have not checked the details of the scoring so can you tell me if they scored the deduction?) However, the affected flow is not the entire program. A skater as seasoned as Buttle, got up quite quickly and continued in his usual style. A second fall would make one think the flow of the program is affected, but we see skaters fall more than once and still score very high.

Buttle did indeed skate a beautifully musical program, but I do believe he was penalized for that major mistake. The music is what makes figure skating different than beautiful dives in Diving competitions.

Li is not that musical. He has timing but no rythym. His arms are doing what he is told to make them do - not what he feels. There is no interpretation of his music by him. Little body language. That to me, is a great flaw in his skating and it was that night. What we all saw was a much improved Li and we were rooting for him. His spins were much better but not at the level of Buttle. The choreography was the best yet but I don't think he contributed to it. His usual fatigue at the end of his routine was less noticeable that night. That was wonderful to see.

Maybe if one is judging the 6.0 system, Li should have beaten Buttle, but let's face it, this sport is sooooo subjective regardless of what scoring system is used.

Tweeking the CoP will be going on for years. BTW, what is a minor mistake that doesn't affect the flow of the program?

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

Hockeyfan...

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate your detailed analysis of the scoring between Li and Buttle. I personally think the more detailed scoring under COP is a move forward for figure skating from 6.0. So...I am really working to understand it better. Your detailed analysis was very helpful.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out for us!!

DG

 

[mzheng]

Maybe if one is judging the 6.0 system, Li should have beaten Buttle, but let's face it, this sport is sooooo subjective regardless of what scoring system is used.

Joe

Theoritically, I don't think the different judge system should've come to different result, had the
1) both systems being designed properly.
2) judges applying the rules correctly.

Unless the new system was designed in mind to complete change the core value of the sport.

That said, I agree with what Ptichk having said. Being watched the both LPs twice from TV now.

It just amazed me, when ppl complain about lady's lacking of 3/3s and prefer lady skating more atheletistics; but at the same time they thought 'pretty' skating of man should take over more atheletistics skating of man.