Hersh: ISU boss has driven skating toward a ditch

[Alba]

Alba - hasn't the US repeatedly won more medals than the Canadians?

I was speaking in all 4 disciplines, not just women and men. Ice Dance is rather recently for USA.

I'm not sure how you can say they maintain a high level in all 4 disciplines.......Other than Virtue and Moir, when was the last time a Canadian won an Olympic Gold?

Well, I can say that because high level is not only Olympic Medals for me. They had world champions, and medalist in all 4 disciplines.
I think having good results, even 4rth or 5th at worlds or Olympics etc., in various disciplines helps a lot in terms of growing and improving.
To have an interest in all 4 disciplines I think it's better rather than focusing in 1 or 2. Of course you can't win in all of them, but it helps to improve them and someday win.
Anyway, I took Canada as an example because it's a big Fed from NA.

 

[cooper]

speedy is too clueless what's going on within the ISU.. and he's too egotistical to even care.. that's why he said that balkov's suspension even though he cheated was only "minor" to him..

 

[erasona]

I've been reading threads related to Cinquanta the past few months, and I just wanted to ask, is figure skating in such a rut outside of the USA? I really just got into the details of the sport recently, but I did grow up adoring Michelle Kwan as a kid. I wasn't aware of the popularity of figure skating then though. I understand that throughout the years, no American Lady, or possibly even skater, has caught the attention of audiences like Kwan, Kerrigan, etc in the USA. However, isn't figure skating really taking flight in Asia and Russia (I'd believe it if someone said the Russian girls are going to take over for a while), although Russia has a a great history of great figure skaters already. Although I'm currently based in the US, I have really come to admire Japanese figure skaters. Figure skating REALLY seems to be booming there. I'm not sure how South Korea is fairing with the greater attention because of Kim Yuna, but their skaters have been getting more attention now. I've seem some posts really admiring Park SoYoun's technique etc. China also has rising stars I believe. Kazakstan also has Denis Ten + lesser known, but competed in Sochi: Rakimgaliev. Southeast Asia sent its first representative vie Martinez. The reason why I am listing all of these is because criticism of Cinquanta is always paired with the decline of popularity of figure skating. But that seems like just in the US, and as mentioned in the article, Europe, (Canada too I heard from a documentary of P. Chan). Could figure skating just be changing its core to Asia?

Note that this isn't a defense of Cinquanta. I have no opinion of him, really, because I don't know, or want to know much about the politics of figure skating. I just think FS is a beautiful sport, and kind of sad that it is riddled with these problems, but all sports are.

On a side note: the article mentions the new scoring system, also another thing associated very much with Cinquanta. I am in favor of this over the 6.0 because it is more objective (or I think, or maybe it's not with all the controversy... O_O Confused...). I don't really like the idea of a judge saying who he likes best, which is the idea of the 6.0, correct me if I am wrong. I also think the the new scoring system is in NO WAY perfect. It has sapped away a whole lot of artistry in exchange for jumps, but it just may be one of the courses of change a sport naturally goes through. I also am a little dubious of the numbers because it took a great program by Kim Yuna in the 2009 Worlds to break through the 200 point mark, but now the 200 point barrier seems to be broken quite a bit. In theory, every 200 point performance MUST be better than all those <200, but this (I think, haven't looked to deeply) may not true with the older programs of skaters after the score change.

Also, just saying that he is a speed skater doesn't seem like a great argument. If anyone makes leaps and bounds for the sport, may the person be a retired figure skater, football player, coach, couch potato, whatever, than that's that. I do think though that if the quality of the sport is really wrecked, then yeah, bad leader. Has figure skating really slid in terms of quality? Just an honest question as I'd like to know the views of more experienced audiences

 

[Alba]

I've been reading threads related to Cinquanta the past few months, and I just wanted to ask, is figure skating in such a rut outside of the USA? I really just got into the details of the sport recently, but I did grow up adoring Michelle Kwan as a kid. I wasn't aware of the popularity of figure skating then though. I understand that throughout the years, no American Lady, or possibly even skater, has caught the attention of audiences like Kwan, Kerrigan, etc in the USA. However, isn't figure skating really taking flight in Asia and Russia (I'd believe it if someone said the Russian girls are going to take over for a while), although Russia has a a great history of great figure skaters already. Although I'm currently based in the US, I have really come to admire Japanese figure skaters. Figure skating REALLY seems to be booming there. I'm not sure how South Korea is fairing with the greater attention because of Kim Yuna, but their skaters have been getting more attention now. I've seem some posts really admiring Park SoYoun's technique etc. China also has rising stars I believe. Kazakstan also has Denis Ten + lesser known, but competed in Sochi: Rakimgaliev. Southeast Asia sent its first representative vie Martinez. The reason why I am listing all of these is because criticism of Cinquanta is always paired with the decline of popularity of figure skating. But that seems like just in the US, and as mentioned in the article, Europe, (Canada too I heard from a documentary of P. Chan). Could figure skating just be changing its core to Asia?

My simple answer is no. Figure skating in terms of athletes and movements is good, at least in Europe and Asia. I think it is in in NA too. The popularity in USA though seems to have suffered a lot, not in Europe.

I don't really like the idea of a judge saying who he likes best, which is the idea of the 6.0, correct me if I am wrong.

It's always going to be like that though, at least in some parts of PCS. How do you judge interpretation, performance or choreo even?

Has figure skating really slid in terms of quality? Just an honest question as I'd like to know the views of more experienced audiences

A bit in Ice Dance, IMO, because of some obligatory elements but in general I would say no.
I watch FS since 1984 and I'm also a "nostalgic", but you always had great skaters and great programs in all periods of time.

 

[pointyourtoe]

I agree that the North American media is often melodramatic about the supposed "death of skating", and act as if they are the center of the universe.

Still, a lot of times the same people accusing North Americans of being shortsighted turn around and claim that skating is "huge in Asia". Asia is a huge continent, last time I checked. Skating is very big right now in Japan. They, like Russia, have a wealth of skating talent in multiple disciplines and their top athletes enjoy major endorsements and mainstream fame. But in Korea, the entire skating industry basically rests on the shoulders of Yuna Kim. Even though they have some promising upcoming skaters, I doubt they're going to repeat what Yuna accomplished, or garner anywhere near the same amount of attention or adoration she did. And yes, Erasona brought up some good points about how skating has been developing in many other Asian countries, but so far many of those success stories (like with Denis in Kazakhstan, or Michael in the Philippines) are exceptions to the rule and not proof that skating has become "huge" in those countries. Imo, it's obvious that it took Japan decades of development to reach this level, and it'll likely be the same for the rest of Asia, if skating ever picks up in the rest of the Asian countries at all. Basically, I believe it's a huge exaggeration to say it's "huge in Asia".

Yes, the skating craze in Japan and Yuna's superstardom in Korea have led to increased opportunities for international skaters in terms of appearing in specials, shows, but it doesn't compare to the skating boom in North America and the money it made for everyone (not just American and Canadian skaters and their federations). I'm not even just talking about North America's global dominance in terms of media and culture. For one, North America was simply a more lucrative market (I know China has the potential to be a huge market, but even though they have great pairs champions and made strides in singles skating, I doubt anyone could realistically say skating is anywhere near "huge" in China right now).
In the 90's and early 2000's, Stars on Ice and Champions on Ice competed with each other (and BOTH did well) with gigantic tours that eclipse any kind of ice tour done today. And it's not just the tours, the huge TV network deals that USFSA enjoyed benefited international skaters tremendously. Elite skaters were paid huge sums to appear in a multitude of annual cheesefests, TV specials, pro-ams. Even if a current skater made the rounds on Yuna, Mao and Evgeni's shows AND THEN did the SOI tour on top of that, it still wouldn't compare to the opportunities international skaters had during the 90's (obviously not counting Yuna or the Japanese skaters' successes within Japan).

 

[Sandpiper]

Alba - hasn't the US repeatedly won more medals than the Canadians? I'm not sure how you can say they maintain a high level in all 4 disciplines.......Other than Virtue and Moir, when was the last time a Canadian won an Olympic Gold?

I think the results of the team competition kinda show how the US and Canada stand relative to each other. Canada is much stronger in men and pairs. Slightly weaker in ladies. Dance might go to the US by a hair because D/W have been edging out V/M for the past two years. However, the Canada #2 team are much stronger than the USA #2 team. Canada had medal contenders in three disciplines over the past quad (men, dance, pairs for D/R's world bronze medals). The US (and I might be remembering this wrong, so correct me) had... medal contenders in dance and that's pretty much it? Ashley Wagner did medal at GPF so maybe that counts for ladies?

Some things have changed after Sochi. Canada looks to have overtaken USA in dance with Weaver/Poje's World silver. Canada will likely continue being better in pairs, since D/R are still together. USA might be able to overtake Canada in men though, if Chan retires (or comes back with visibly worse tech). And USA is likely to widen their gap in women.

 

[Alba]

I agree that the North American media is often melodramatic about the supposed "death of skating", and act as if they are the center of the universe.

Still, a lot of times the same people accusing North Americans of being shortsighted turn around and claim that skating is "huge in Asia". Asia is a huge continent, last time I checked. Skating is very big right now in Japan. They, like Russia, have a wealth of skating talent in multiple disciplines and their top athletes enjoy major endorsements and mainstream fame. But in Korea, the entire skating industry basically rests on the shoulders of Yuna Kim. Even though they have some promising upcoming skaters, I doubt they're going to repeat what Yuna accomplished, or garner anywhere near the same amount of attention or adoration she did. And yes, Erasona brought up some good points about how skating has been developing in many other Asian countries, but so far many of those success stories (like with Denis in Kazakhstan, or Michael in the Philippines) are exceptions to the rule and not proof that skating has become "huge" in those countries. Imo, it's obvious that it took Japan decades of development to reach this level, and it'll likely be the same for the rest of Asia, if skating ever picks up in the rest of the Asian countries at all. Basically, I believe it's a huge exaggeration to say it's "huge in Asia".

Yes, the skating craze in Japan and Yuna's superstardom in Korea have led to increased opportunities for international skaters in terms of appearing in specials, shows, but I don't think it compares to the skating boom in North America. I'm not even just talking about North America's media/cultural global dominance. Rather that North America was a more lucrative market (I know China is a potentially huge market, but even though they have great pairs champions and have made strides in singles skating, I still wouldn't say skating is anywhere near "huge" in China right now).
In the 90's and early 2000's, Stars on Ice and Champions on Ice competed with each other (and BOTH did well) with gigantic tours that eclipse any kind of ice tour done today. And it's not just the tours, the huge TV network deals that USFSA enjoyed benefited international skaters tremendously. Elite skaters were paid huge sums to appear in a multitude of annual cheesefests, TV specials, pro-ams, every year. Even if a current skater made the rounds on Yuna, Mao or Evgeni's shows and then did the SOI tour in North America, it still wouldn't compare to the opportunities international skaters had during the 90's (obviously not counting Yuna or the Japanese skaters' successes within Japan).

I do agree with you, especially about the lucrative market subject. That's why I can speak about athletes and movement only.
Maybe it's an exaggeration saying "huge" in Japan or China etc., but the movement has grown in different countries.
In Italy for example it's not very popular (there are improvements), and never will be for that matter, but the movement has improved a lot.

The USA was a huge market and they paid a lot, but I honestly don't think you can say that FS is dying as a sport because the TV's in USA don't pay the same amount of money they used to pay.

By the way, how Canada is doing in this aspect?

 

[Sandpiper]

By the way, how Canada is doing in this aspect?

Not very good, if we were to believe the Patrick Chan documentary. They described him as a "Top athlete in an unpopular sport"--or something to that effect. And described how much money his family has to pour into his training. Obviously, this isn't exactly a good source.

CBC has rights to Olympics and Worlds. Broadcasted the Olympic gala on at least two different times. I dunno if they ever even broadcasted Worlds though, or if they just kept it to their website. I'm not sure they even had full commentary for all the performances--maybe just for the highlights. No, wait, I think they broadcasted the highlights (final group, major contenders, ect.). But probably not the whole thing.

As you can probably tell from this post, I'm not the person to ask about TV broadcasts.

 

[JLPL]

CBC showed all of worlds and the gala. But with all the cutbacks happening now at the government level, apparently they will not be bidding on any more major competitions. They lost hockey which was the big money maker, so unless CTV picks up more FS, I don't think we will have great coverage here going forward. I am not sure when the current CBC contract with the ISU runs out. CTV's contract is with Skate Canada.

 

[Alba]

Not very good, if we were to believe the Patrick Chan documentary. They described him as a "Top athlete in an unpopular sport"--or something to that effect. And described how much money his family has to pour into his training. Obviously, this isn't exactly a good source.

CBC has rights to Olympics and Worlds. Broadcasted the Olympic gala on at least two different times. I dunno if they ever even broadcasted Worlds though, or if they just kept it to their website. I'm not sure they even had full commentary for all the performances--maybe just for the highlights. No, wait, I think they broadcasted the highlights (final group, major contenders, ect.). But probably not the whole thing.

As you can probably tell from this post, I'm not the person to ask about TV broadcasts.

Anyway, I'm not sure how much this broadcasting thing should be taken as a sign of being a very popular sport or not.
In italy they do show all the competitions, but it's not like the FS is a popular sport.

It's strange though about Chan. Sorry but doesn't Skate Canada pay for him? Not even after become a World Champion?


@All: Personally I don't like the shows at all. I never liked them or wanted them, but I do know they are good for the skaters.
I would watch very few performances during the Olympic Gala at most.
I do loved and I still miss the world pro though. I love the competions, not the shows. I don't like the friendly matches in football either.
I usually watch them just before some big competitions, like the World Cup or Euros, in order to assess and have an idea about the teams and the players.

 

[WeakAnkles]

You really want to eliminate the root cause of judging scandals? It's a rather simple solution, but it will never happen (though I've been thinking this since at least the SLC Olympic Games and am always surprised no one ever suggest what I am about to suggest).

Get rid of national affiliations. Let each skater or team compete individually. As individuals.

Just think about it.

 

[Alba]

You really want to eliminate the root cause of judging scandals? It's a rather simple solution, but it will never happen (though I've been thinking this since at least the SLC Olympic Games and am always surprised no one ever suggest what I am about to suggest).

Get rid of national affiliations. Let each skater or team compete individually. As individuals.

Just think about it.

And how the athletes are gonna finance themselves?

You/I/We might call the Federations corrupt. Some use the word "Politicking", but if they don't do it they would be accused of not supporting their athletes!
It's a lose game for them I guess.

 

[ManLady]

And how the athletes are gonna finance themselves?

corporate sponsorship. maybe we can have the skaters wear logos all over their costumes like in NASCAR, and have corporate-themed programs. for instance, gracie can skate to 'I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke'. At the end of her program she can pull out a can of coke and take a big drink and smile to the judges. no more scandals. no more lack of tv coverage. problems solved.

 

[WeakAnkles]

And how the athletes are gonna finance themselves?

You/I/We might call the Federations corrupt. Some use the word "Politicking", but if they don't do it they would be accused of not supporting their athletes!
It's a lose game for them I guess.

How for example do tennis players fund themselves? Or golfers?

 

[Alba]

How for example do tennis players fund themselves? Or golfers?

Sponsors you mean? Yeah, but than we will have a competition/corruption between sponsors.

There are lots of talks about this in football, which shouldn't even be a problem in theory since isn't a judge sport, but the Adidas vs Nike war is on.

 

[Alba]

corporate sponsorship. maybe we can have the skaters wear logos all over their costumes like in NASCAR, and have corporate-themed programs. for instance, gracie can skate to 'I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke'. At the end of her program she can pull out a can of coke and take a big drink and smile to the judges. no more scandals. no more lack of tv coverage. problems solved.

:thumbsup:

 

[WeakAnkles]

Funny but I haven't heard of much sponsor corruption in tennis or golf.

Hey it's easy to say no. The world has always been full of people who automatically say no. But I think the effort to make skating nation-free is worth it. Then we would see the best skaters at the highest level, and not have some great skaters forced to miss important competitions because of national limits.

 

[jenaj]

I agree that the North American media is often melodramatic about the supposed "death of skating", and act as if they are the center of the universe.

Still, a lot of times the same people accusing North Americans of being shortsighted turn around and claim that skating is "huge in Asia". Asia is a huge continent, last time I checked. Skating is very big right now in Japan. They, like Russia, have a wealth of skating talent in multiple disciplines and their top athletes enjoy major endorsements and mainstream fame. But in Korea, the entire skating industry basically rests on the shoulders of Yuna Kim. Even though they have some promising upcoming skaters, I doubt they're going to repeat what Yuna accomplished, or garner anywhere near the same amount of attention or adoration she did. And yes, Erasona brought up some good points about how skating has been developing in many other Asian countries, but so far many of those success stories (like with Denis in Kazakhstan, or Michael in the Philippines) are exceptions to the rule and not proof that skating has become "huge" in those countries. Imo, it's obvious that it took Japan decades of development to reach this level, and it'll likely be the same for the rest of Asia, if skating ever picks up in the rest of the Asian countries at all. Basically, I believe it's a huge exaggeration to say it's "huge in Asia".

Yes, the skating craze in Japan and Yuna's superstardom in Korea have led to increased opportunities for international skaters in terms of appearing in specials, shows, but it doesn't compare to the skating boom in North America and the money it made for everyone (not just American and Canadian skaters and their federations). I'm not even just talking about North America's global dominance in terms of media and culture. For one, North America was simply a more lucrative market (I know China has the potential to be a huge market, but even though they have great pairs champions and made strides in singles skating, I doubt anyone could realistically say skating is anywhere near "huge" in China right now).
In the 90's and early 2000's, Stars on Ice and Champions on Ice competed with each other (and BOTH did well) with gigantic tours that eclipse any kind of ice tour done today. And it's not just the tours, the huge TV network deals that USFSA enjoyed benefited international skaters tremendously. Elite skaters were paid huge sums to appear in a multitude of annual cheesefests, TV specials, pro-ams. Even if a current skater made the rounds on Yuna, Mao and Evgeni's shows AND THEN did the SOI tour on top of that, it still wouldn't compare to the opportunities international skaters had during the 90's (obviously not counting Yuna or the Japanese skaters' successes within Japan).

Skating needs the US market. The rest of the world may not like it, but the US market is big and there is a lot of money to be made if a sport is popular there. But the sport is not coming back in the US unless there is a dominant US ladies skater. I don't see Gracie Gold or any of the current US ladies filling that role. And even then, with the inscrutable scoring system, it will be difficult to regain an audience. Despite the flaws in the 6.0 system, the fans liked it and thought they understood it, even if they didn't. The old system was also better at rewarding artistry, which is another key component to building an audience for the sport in the US. Peggy Fleming set the trend and it continued all the way through to Michelle Kwan. It didn't end because Michelle retired. It ended because the new system leaves little room for artistry when skaters are trying to cram in as many point-gathering (and often pointless) moves as possible.

 

[Alba]

Funny but I haven't heard of much sponsor corruption in tennis or golf.

Never heard about doping, and how they put under the carpet the big Operacion Puerto in Spain?
http://www.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/205938.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ith-football-boxing-tennis-and-athletics.html
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914...doctor-eufemiano-fuentes-footballs-unanswered


Anyway, I don't know about golf because I don't like the game and don't watch it, so I understand nothing about it. In Tennis though is really difficult to cheat. There is little room for interpreting a ball which went off the line and there is also the beep sound.
In football as well is more difficult than in FS but much more easy than tennis.

Hey it's easy to say no. The world has always been full of people who automatically say no. But I think the effort to make skating nation-free is worth it. Then we would see the best skaters at the highest level, and not have some great skaters forced to miss important competitions because of national limits.

It's not easy to say no but to think that corporations, big sponsors etc., will "clean" this sport - that is gonna be judged by humans in anycase - it's naive at best.

 

[Alba]

Skating needs the US market. The rest of the world may not like it, but the US market is big and there is a lot of money to be made if a sport is popular there. But the sport is not coming back in the US unless there is a dominant US ladies skater. I don't see Gracie Gold or any of the current US ladies filling that role. And even then, with the inscrutable scoring system, it will be difficult to regain an audience. Despite the flaws in the 6.0 system, the fans liked it and thought they understood it, even if they didn't. The old system was also better at rewarding artistry, which is another key component to building an audience for the sport in the US. Peggy Fleming set the trend and it continued all the way through to Michelle Kwan. It didn't end because Michelle retired. It ended because the new system leaves little room for artistry when skaters are trying to cram in as many point-gathering (and often pointless) moves as possible.

I fully agree with you on this. :thumbsup: